These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Upcoming Feature and Change Feedback Center

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Citadels] Changing NPC taxes

First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Rob Kaichin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#281 - 2016-03-04 14:26:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Rob Kaichin
Querns wrote:


This slope seems awfully slippery, gee.



CCP started it, the players escalated.

Isn't that your modus operandi?
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#282 - 2016-03-04 14:26:54 UTC
corebloodbrothers wrote:
citadels should not be pushed by nerfing npc stations.

the current proposal is a overall price rise and risk increase for null in total. a market tax of total 8,5 % !!!!!!! is a huge blow. so you pay basically a security tax since a NPC doesnt get blown up, versus a citadel with a 10 % loot drop fine to retreive ALL your items.
...

Null doesnt have many blocks left, btw, PL and goons will use the tools we all use too watch at the list of stations with most isk in market. and ransom them or blow them up. U are creating the biggest disatisfier EVER in null. NOONE can defend themselvesfrom pl or goon superblob, which will ransom or destroy any hub in citadel that builds something up worth destroying.

its the virtual end and reverse achievemtn of current breakign up of null into smaller parts with fun pvp without everyone butting in. you are now breaking null. through logitic nerfing indireclty.

So very much this all. But neither CCP nor CSM nor the players are interested in smaller blocks. They are only interested in safety in numbers, and Citadels in combination with Aegis Sov and coming structures will cement that further and further.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#283 - 2016-03-04 14:27:31 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
So, do we get happy engaged players who welcome the new citadels?
Or deeply resentful people?

Ask people who were pwning in tracking Titans.
Sometimes things should be nerfed. And those Titans cost a bit more than 5 mil.
Kaivar Lancer
Doomheim
#284 - 2016-03-04 14:28:29 UTC
Raising NPC taxes to encourage traders to move to citadels won't work. Here's why.

Suppose the base NPC broker fee is 6%, and through training Broker Relations to V and grinding standings, you reduce this to 2%. A citadel owner has an incentive to charge up to 1.99%. Why would I move to a citadel to save up to 0.01%, taking into consideration the uncertainty of docking rights, the citadel's survivability, 10% in asset recovery fees etc? It just isn't worth it. No citadel in New Eden is going to charge 0% broker fees to the public, just like there are no POCOs charging 0% to the public (not even in low sec).

All this tax hike will cause is increase the price of everything and reduce trading. If you want to lock new players out of the market, this is a great way to do it.

A citadel market will only be used when it can provide a function that NPC stations don't have, e.g. an alliance that wishes to sell cheap goods to its members without the danger of outside traders or enemies buying everything up, or perhaps setting up a Caldari hub in a Gallente-occupied FW system. Traders that wish to trade with the public will stick to the certainty and safety of NPC stations.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#285 - 2016-03-04 14:33:02 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Skia Aumer wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
So, do we get happy engaged players who welcome the new citadels?
Or deeply resentful people?

Ask people who were pwning in tracking Titans.
Sometimes things should be nerfed. And those Titans cost a bit more than 5 mil.

There is a world of difference between rebalancing ships and features, to make the game better to play, and using the means of making areas of the game unpleasant, to force a change in behavior.

If CCP wish people to live in Citadels, that is absolutely fine.

But they need to surprise and delight us, encourage us to WANT to live in them, make them desirable, not turn NPC stations into slums, to force us out.

Carrots not sticks.

It is easier in the short term to take the lazy path , juggle a few numbers? Make it unpleasant to use NPC Stations, But it is going to be REALLY expensive to undo the mayhem and resentment that gets unleashed.

People HATE being clearly herded like sheep, at least sheep go towards nice green grass, not run from burnt fields.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#286 - 2016-03-04 14:39:08 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Carrots not sticks.

Carrots AND sticks. Only that way.

inb4 someone rage-quit over 5 mil fee.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#287 - 2016-03-04 14:40:37 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Skia Aumer wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Carrots not sticks.

Carrots AND sticks. Only that way.

inb4 someone rage-quit over 5 mil fee.


No one gives a Hairy shi7 about 5m.

Not understood that yet? People hate being herded.
If that does not worry you, that is fine, I will be waiting with the mint sauce.

CCP are in grave danger of turning a triumph into a disaster.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#288 - 2016-03-04 14:44:50 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
MachineOfLovingGrace wrote:
Marcus Tedric wrote:
Charles Burger wrote:
What's the actual point of the 5 mil jump fee for NPC stations?......................

I am failing to see the point whatsoever. It seems like all con and no pro. What's the pro's of this change, from any angle? Who is it meant to help?


The point is that running a Clone Bay in a Citadel will have a cost (in the new fuel-blocks) which, as suggested in the OP, is currently around 157m per month.

Citadels cost a lot and running them will cost - EVE is a business game and like any business the investment of the isk is supposed to have a return (if you're doing it right).


So remove the fuel cost for the clone bay. Problem fixed.


"why does the market require fuel? the clone bay doesn't"


I am seeing an assumption that CCP believes we need to have our behaviour modified to make Citadels work.

You need to look a little more closely into the thought that players will automatically resist change, and have done historically.

Whilst this assumption is not technically incorrect, you will find that mass resistiance occurs when CCP are using negative reinforcement, or punishment, to drive different behaviours. "the players need to be educated and forced to use the new xxxx"

When we have seen positive reinforcement or "Dear God, but thats better, fantastic!” we DO NOT HAVE RESISTANCE. in fact we welcome the change with open arms.

So CCP if you want to carry the playerbase on the journey with you, delight and surprise us. This is what CCP Seagull promised, and we have stayed because of this, Hopeful.

If you want outright war between CCP and the playerbase, even though the journey is a good one, just punish us and whip us to make us change.

I did think that you had learned this lesson, and we were past this thinking.



Aka powercreep.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#289 - 2016-03-04 14:47:15 UTC
I think you are posting in the wrong thread, that comment has absolutely no relevance to this one, try GDRoll

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#290 - 2016-03-04 14:59:21 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
No one gives a Hairy shi7 about 5m.

Exactly.
5 mil is insignificant - this is the fact.
"Being herded" - that is your perception, and it may differ from mine. You can come up with any perception you want, and I have almost zero influence on it. So I just stop here.
u3pog
Ministerstvo na otbranata
Ore No More
#291 - 2016-03-04 15:03:38 UTC
Circumstantial Evidence wrote:
"To create an environment more competitive for Citadels, we plan on increasing the transaction tax to 2.5% [....] Players trading in citadels will still receive the transaction tax, but the broker's fee will be at the complete discretion of the owner. "

I don't understand how raising the transaction tax everywhere, w/o the possibility of reduction by using a Citadel market service - makes Citadels more competitive.


I am guessing bigger ISK sink is in mind here, as for some folks proposing the tax to go even further up, prices will adjust, even if the tax is 100%, but it will probably force more people to move to citadels. I can deal with 6%, but 10 or 15% will be too much to ignore...If that's CCP goal to move us to citadels, they will achieve it at some point.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#292 - 2016-03-04 15:05:26 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Skia Aumer wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
No one gives a Hairy shi7 about 5m.

Exactly.
5 mil is insignificant - this is the fact.
"Being herded" - that is your perception, and it may differ from mine. You can come up with any perception you want, and I have almost zero influence on it. So I just stop here.

That's cool.
The issue is that CCP have chosen to use negative reinforcement (punishments) to drive us to citadels.
This is a poor choice of motivation in a game feature.
They should be reinforcing the desire of people to try them, rather than making people resent them.
I believe they will be a good feature, but unfortunately that day will come much much later now. They are persuading people to resent and dislike them by their actions. One day we will have forgotten how NPC stations were, and then people will just use Citadels.

That is a pity, it is a real shame when a company creates a disaster out of a triumph and even sadder when it was pointed out as the obvious result beforehand, it is not too late.

They would be a much loved new feature, and embraced by all. How on earth did this happen?

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#293 - 2016-03-04 15:09:04 UTC
Rob Kaichin wrote:
Querns wrote:


This slope seems awfully slippery, gee.



CCP started it, the players escalated.

Isn't that your modus operandi?

No, you're thinking that CCP will escalate it. You are wrong.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
plasticsurgerycandidate2
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#294 - 2016-03-04 15:33:50 UTC
I'm sorry ccp but making people move to citadel by increasing both regular and jump clone taxes if you don't is stupid. It's the equivalent of saying "now that we have a new beer we want everyone to try, we're going to make our existing beers **** to force you to switch."

It's a stupid idea.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#295 - 2016-03-04 15:59:51 UTC
Kaivar Lancer wrote:
Raising NPC taxes to encourage traders to move to citadels won't work. Here's why.

Suppose the base NPC broker fee is 6%, and through training Broker Relations to V and grinding standings, you reduce this to 2%. A citadel owner has an incentive to charge up to 1.99%. Why would I move to a citadel to save up to 0.01%, taking into consideration the uncertainty of docking rights, the citadel's survivability, 10% in asset recovery fees etc? It just isn't worth it. No citadel in New Eden is going to charge 0% broker fees to the public, just like there are no POCOs charging 0% to the public (not even in low sec).

All this tax hike will cause is increase the price of everything and reduce trading. If you want to lock new players out of the market, this is a great way to do it.

A citadel market will only be used when it can provide a function that NPC stations don't have, e.g. an alliance that wishes to sell cheap goods to its members without the danger of outside traders or enemies buying everything up, or perhaps setting up a Caldari hub in a Gallente-occupied FW system. Traders that wish to trade with the public will stick to the certainty and safety of NPC stations.

Take a moment and think about all the different theme parks, movie theaters, sports arenas, and state/county fairs. Do all of them share the same pricing schemes, even amongst similar venues? Nope. And yet, some are still very successful over others.

The beauty of such flexible platforms in highsec, is you could choose any route you like.

All services are free, but the docking fee is nuts.
Market taxes are high, but there's no Corp office rent.
Refineries are top notch, but heavily taxed.
Market is completely free of tax, but everything else is crazy exspensive.

And it's certain everyone won't suddenly rush to the first one built. That's a given. It took years to build some of those stockpiles, they're not going to move overnight, and not before plenty of research and advertising is done.
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#296 - 2016-03-04 16:20:40 UTC
Rowells wrote:
Kaivar Lancer wrote:
Raising NPC taxes to encourage traders to move to citadels won't work. Here's why.

Suppose the base NPC broker fee is 6%, and through training Broker Relations to V and grinding standings, you reduce this to 2%. A citadel owner has an incentive to charge up to 1.99%. Why would I move to a citadel to save up to 0.01%, taking into consideration the uncertainty of docking rights, the citadel's survivability, 10% in asset recovery fees etc? It just isn't worth it. No citadel in New Eden is going to charge 0% broker fees to the public, just like there are no POCOs charging 0% to the public (not even in low sec).

All this tax hike will cause is increase the price of everything and reduce trading. If you want to lock new players out of the market, this is a great way to do it.

A citadel market will only be used when it can provide a function that NPC stations don't have, e.g. an alliance that wishes to sell cheap goods to its members without the danger of outside traders or enemies buying everything up, or perhaps setting up a Caldari hub in a Gallente-occupied FW system. Traders that wish to trade with the public will stick to the certainty and safety of NPC stations.

Take a moment and think about all the different theme parks, movie theaters, sports arenas, and state/county fairs. Do all of them share the same pricing schemes, even amongst similar venues? Nope. And yet, some are still very successful over others.

The beauty of such flexible platforms in highsec, is you could choose any route you like.

All services are free, but the docking fee is nuts.
Market taxes are high, but there's no Corp office rent.
Refineries are top notch, but heavily taxed.
Market is completely free of tax, but everything else is crazy exspensive.

And it's certain everyone won't suddenly rush to the first one built. That's a given. It took years to build some of those stockpiles, they're not going to move overnight, and not before plenty of research and advertising is done.

People will rush there ... to destroy them. That's why your comparison does not work. In RL we have a government and laws and murder is a crime, in New Eden rules are made by the one with the biggest or the most gun(s).

I'm my own NPC alt.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#297 - 2016-03-04 16:53:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Rowells
Tipa Riot wrote:
Rowells wrote:
Kaivar Lancer wrote:
Raising NPC taxes to encourage traders to move to citadels won't work. Here's why.

Suppose the base NPC broker fee is 6%, and through training Broker Relations to V and grinding standings, you reduce this to 2%. A citadel owner has an incentive to charge up to 1.99%. Why would I move to a citadel to save up to 0.01%, taking into consideration the uncertainty of docking rights, the citadel's survivability, 10% in asset recovery fees etc? It just isn't worth it. No citadel in New Eden is going to charge 0% broker fees to the public, just like there are no POCOs charging 0% to the public (not even in low sec).

All this tax hike will cause is increase the price of everything and reduce trading. If you want to lock new players out of the market, this is a great way to do it.

A citadel market will only be used when it can provide a function that NPC stations don't have, e.g. an alliance that wishes to sell cheap goods to its members without the danger of outside traders or enemies buying everything up, or perhaps setting up a Caldari hub in a Gallente-occupied FW system. Traders that wish to trade with the public will stick to the certainty and safety of NPC stations.

Take a moment and think about all the different theme parks, movie theaters, sports arenas, and state/county fairs. Do all of them share the same pricing schemes, even amongst similar venues? Nope. And yet, some are still very successful over others.

The beauty of such flexible platforms in highsec, is you could choose any route you like.

All services are free, but the docking fee is nuts.
Market taxes are high, but there's no Corp office rent.
Refineries are top notch, but heavily taxed.
Market is completely free of tax, but everything else is crazy exspensive.

And it's certain everyone won't suddenly rush to the first one built. That's a given. It took years to build some of those stockpiles, they're not going to move overnight, and not before plenty of research and advertising is done.

People will rush there ... to destroy them. That's why your comparison does not work. In RL we have a government and laws and murder is a crime, in New Eden rules are made by the one with the biggest or the most gun(s).

Last I heard, citadels have the biggest guns

And having big fights in highsec is something that would be interesting to see
Babbet Bunny
#298 - 2016-03-04 16:53:43 UTC
PAnd we know how changes like this went for "New Coke"....

BlinkI don't mind the tax increase that will be passed on to the consumers.

EvilThe market in citadels not working with CREST will be a problem. No more eve central. No more automatic updated spreadsheets. Now what I do for fun and profit becomes a job.
Rob Kaichin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#299 - 2016-03-04 17:06:15 UTC
Querns wrote:
No, you're thinking that CCP will escalate it. You are wrong.


Unless CCP specifically rules it out, I expect that they're considering doing such things.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#300 - 2016-03-04 17:13:38 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
I think you are posting in the wrong thread, that comment has absolutely no relevance to this one, try GDRoll


I think you dont know what power creep is...

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs