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[Citadels] Changing NPC taxes

First post
Author
Lugh Crow-Slave
#161 - 2016-03-03 22:19:29 UTC
Circumstantial Evidence wrote:
"To create an environment more competitive for Citadels, we plan on increasing the transaction tax to 2.5% [....] Players trading in citadels will still receive the transaction tax, but the broker's fee will be at the complete discretion of the owner. "

I don't understand how raising the transaction tax everywhere, w/o the possibility of reduction by using a Citadel market service - makes Citadels more competitive.


The market rig reduces the transaction tax fire citadels
Thebriwan
LUX Uls Xystus
#162 - 2016-03-03 22:28:40 UTC
The proposed changes look interesting and I have only one objection:

I think the broker fee for NPC stations would be to high.

There should be incentive to build an maintain citadels even in highsec - I see that.
If one would try to create a market hub - free docking for everyone, with taxes on selling - I very much like that.
BUT. There is a much greater risk in using that hub. The structure can be put down, the market can be closed on the whim of the owner. Or specially You or I can be suddenly excluded.

That needs to be balanced. Ok.

But 5 - 6 % broker fee? This would be more than the margin on many items.

If anyone can make a Citadel in or near Jita work, even 0.1 % as a broker fee would make them very very rich.
There is no need to cut off the NPC station hugging margins trader from their profits.

I think that there is absolutely no need to make the NPC station broker fee higher.
Deck Cadelanne
CAStabouts
#163 - 2016-03-03 22:31:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Deck Cadelanne
Querns wrote:

You can use someone else's citadel, without having to belong to their corporation or alliance.


Only if they let you.

Odds of that happening?

Pretty close to zero. Like anybody is going to pay for and take the risk of continuing to pay for a citadel just to let the bad guys use it.

This will kill casual/newbro PVP dead and probably empty out a lot of lowsec and NPC null as well. Won't effect the big sov null blobs at all.

EDIT: Except for making their space even more secure, that is.

"When the going gets weird, the weird turn professional."

- Hunter S. Thompson

Circumstantial Evidence
#164 - 2016-03-03 22:33:47 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Circumstantial Evidence wrote:
I don't understand how raising the transaction tax everywhere, w/o the possibility of reduction by using a Citadel market service - makes Citadels more competitive.
The market rig reduces the transaction tax fire citadels
Thx - missed that. We will face interesting tradeoffs in rigging choices.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#165 - 2016-03-03 22:43:24 UTC
Circumstantial Evidence wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Circumstantial Evidence wrote:
I don't understand how raising the transaction tax everywhere, w/o the possibility of reduction by using a Citadel market service - makes Citadels more competitive.
The market rig reduces the transaction tax fire citadels
Thx - missed that. We will face interesting tradeoffs in rigging choices.

Yep and remember bonuses change depending on arc statuary (higher bonuses in low/null than in high)
Xandor M
Doomheim
#166 - 2016-03-03 23:00:07 UTC
I'm sorry CCP, but the 7.5% - 8.5% base taxes and fees are a terrible idea. As a trader, there's no way i'm going to use a citadel for trading, between the taxes/fees, risk of the citadel being destroyed, risk of being locked out, etc... What this will do is cause people who trade passively to find new professions, some will turn to mission running, others to wormholes, most will choose a profession that brings new isk into the economy (bounties, sleeper loot, etc...) rather than circulating the existing isk.

Secondly, the 5m per clone jump is a bit extreme, I could see 1m as alliances tend to jump clone a lot. Have it scale somehow depending on how recently you jumped, or how many clones you have, or how far you're jumping.

I don't think the solution to inflation in eve is by increasing isk sinks, I believe reducing the faucets would be better, reduce bounties and mission payouts, increase lp and loot, reduce the buy price of npc buy orders (sleeper loot, etc...)
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#167 - 2016-03-03 23:07:43 UTC
Deck Cadelanne wrote:
Querns wrote:

You can use someone else's citadel, without having to belong to their corporation or alliance.


Only if they let you.

Odds of that happening?

Pretty close to zero. Like anybody is going to pay for and take the risk of continuing to pay for a citadel just to let the bad guys use it.

This will kill casual/newbro PVP dead and probably empty out a lot of lowsec and NPC null as well. Won't effect the big sov null blobs at all.

EDIT: Except for making their space even more secure, that is.

You don't think people will make free-for-all docking citadels in empire, especially with the prospect of being able to reap tax income from them? If you think they won't exist, you're nuts.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Vibiana
Frontier Trading Company
#168 - 2016-03-03 23:08:33 UTC
Situation:

I'm putting my 3 month sell order in citadel


Owner rises sell tax to 100%. Buys my stuff, gets his isk back with the tax.

me -> no items, no isk.

owner -> items and isk.


Until you install the means to prevent that fraud, I will stay away from any investments in player-owned market places.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#169 - 2016-03-03 23:08:54 UTC
Querns wrote:
Deck Cadelanne wrote:
Querns wrote:

You can use someone else's citadel, without having to belong to their corporation or alliance.


Only if they let you.

Odds of that happening?

Pretty close to zero. Like anybody is going to pay for and take the risk of continuing to pay for a citadel just to let the bad guys use it.

This will kill casual/newbro PVP dead and probably empty out a lot of lowsec and NPC null as well. Won't effect the big sov null blobs at all.

EDIT: Except for making their space even more secure, that is.

You don't think people will make free-for-all docking citadels in empire, especially with the prospect of being able to reap tax income from them? If you think they won't exist, you're nuts.

Dibs on niarja/uedama
Solaris Vex
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#170 - 2016-03-03 23:10:10 UTC
The new tax rates are a massive ISK sink. Will there be a new ISK fountain to compensate? Or is inflation really that bad?
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#171 - 2016-03-03 23:13:31 UTC
Vibiana wrote:
Situation:

I'm putting my 3 month sell order in citadel


Owner rises sell tax to 100%. Buys my stuff, gets his isk back with the tax.

me -> no items, no isk.

owner -> items and isk.


Until you install the means to prevent that fraud, I will stay away from any investments in player-owned market places.

Pretty sure that's not how taxes work.
Matthew
BloodStar Technologies
#172 - 2016-03-03 23:19:21 UTC
Vibiana wrote:
Situation:

I'm putting my 3 month sell order in citadel


Owner rises sell tax to 100%. Buys my stuff, gets his isk back with the tax.

me -> no items, no isk.

owner -> items and isk.


Until you install the means to prevent that fraud, I will stay away from any investments in player-owned market places.


That would be why the citadel owner is only able to adjust the broker fee, which is paid when you place the order.

What you describe would only apply if the citadel owner could adjust the transaction tax, which they cannot in these proposals.
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#173 - 2016-03-03 23:21:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Moac Tor
Zappity wrote:
Charles Surge wrote:
5M to JC is too high.

It is an incentive not to JC, and thus +1 incentive not to play the game.

Agreed. This is a tax on PvP whereas the other fees are a tax on profitable activities. Profit taxes are good, PvP tax is bad.

I think that the ability to stack jump clones in the same structure (vs just one now) is adequate incentive. The current system is a real pain.

It is only 5 million ISK to teleport across the entire map; stop complaining scrubs.

I am in favour of creating a more interesting playing field when it comes to market hubs, but you are doing it wrong by simply offering massive bonuses to anyone using a citadel.

To make things interesting it should be based upon security status of the system also. As I and a couple of others mentioned; a lower security status should also the lower the broker fee.

This would offer some counterbalance and incentive to setting up hubs in low sec and below and make trading a lot more interesting.
Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#174 - 2016-03-03 23:22:50 UTC
Querns wrote:
You don't think people will make free-for-all docking citadels in empire, especially with the prospect of being able to reap tax income from them? If you think they won't exist, you're nuts.


GSF used to be the good guys, fighting the evil empire, now they are the bad guys. If the CFC opened up a 0% tax citadel in or around Jita, and kept it that way for months, then jacked the taxes up to just under the NPC orders, while simultaneously deccing all other competitors citadels, while potentially a smart play, this just lets people have too much power.

When AegisSov Hit, many players threw up their hands and said, Sov isn't worth it, let's go to LowSec. They were and are right in lots of ways; the isk is terrible, there's risk and maintenance, and there's no fights. People are going to be similarly affected when just keeping supplied is too much of a hassle. On paper this may be an attempt to add more sinks while also de-centralizing the market, which while both potentially good things, you could just as easily alter faucets (big need to do this) or add more NPC stations in key spots that would become sub-hubs.

I am sorry but this game play is forced, and in a bad way. You want to enable players and small groups, and these changes do the opposite.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?

Align Planet1
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#175 - 2016-03-03 23:29:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Align Planet1
I guess this means the wardec mechanics are getting another look soon.

Or, if that's not the plan, it soon will be. Otherwise, everything is going to be dramatically more expensive for no pay-off.
Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#176 - 2016-03-03 23:30:01 UTC
Moac Tor wrote:
]It is only 5 million ISK to teleport across the entire map; stop complaining scrubs.


Per character, per jump. Moving around is a key part of the game now due to how far and between content is. The faster and easier it is to get to content, the better experiences players have, and the more the wheels of the economy are greased, which in turn is more content for people. It will add up a lot faster than you think, and is just another straw on an increasingly burdened back.

Everyone of these proposed changes is harmful to players and small entities.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?

Katarina Reid
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#177 - 2016-03-03 23:31:20 UTC
5mil to change implants is to much. Should make it if you jump to a clone in same station its free and no cooldown.
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#178 - 2016-03-03 23:40:08 UTC
Vic Jefferson wrote:
Moac Tor wrote:
It is only 5 million ISK to teleport across the entire map; stop complaining scrubs.


Per character, per jump. Moving around is a key part of the game now due to how far and between content is. The faster and easier it is to get to content, the better experiences players have, and the more the wheels of the economy are greased, which in turn is more content for people. It will add up a lot faster than you think, and is just another straw on an increasingly burdened back.

Everyone of these proposed changes is harmful to players and small entities.

So it is not good because it doesn't allow players instant gratification and means their choices have consequences... I guess I can't blame you as it seems to be the path eve has been following lately.
Niko Zino
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#179 - 2016-03-03 23:49:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Niko Zino
Moac Tor wrote:
So it is not good because it doesn't allow players instant gratification and means their choices have consequences... I guess I can't blame you as it seems to be the path eve has been following lately.


Heaven knows Vic and I aren't always on the same side of every issue, but seriously, you should read what he writes before typing.

5M to a veteran is of no consequence. Free for newbie who happens to be in a corp that has a Citadel with JC bay where he wants to be is of no consequence.

If you aren't in either of these cases, as is the case for most 'unaligned' PvP newbie friendly groups, you have to pay 10M for the right to try something new.

Not a lot of ISK, you'll tell me, that's absolutely true. But for someone who has to be convinced in the first place that change is a good thing, adding 'oh and you have to pay extra just to try' just doesn't help

CAS, the NPC Corp that Does Stuff™

Lugh Crow-Slave
#180 - 2016-03-03 23:50:17 UTC
Vic Jefferson wrote:
Moac Tor wrote:
]It is only 5 million ISK to teleport across the entire map; stop complaining scrubs.


Per character, per jump. Moving around is a key part of the game now due to how far and between content is. The faster and easier it is to get to content, the better experiences players have, and the more the wheels of the economy are greased, which in turn is more content for people. It will add up a lot faster than you think, and is just another straw on an increasingly burdened back.

Everyone of these proposed changes is harmful to players and small entities.


Not my fault if you live to far away from content maybe try dropping a few blues