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Worries about the skill injectors, and the future of the game.

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sero Hita
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#421 - 2016-03-03 11:27:37 UTC
Mr Mieyli wrote:
Sero Hita, there's not really any significant difference between your two definitions of pay2win. Care to explain why pay4advantage is alright but it's not ok if the advantage is only attainable with RL cash?


There is a difference, first off people who believe in 2, does not see 1 as pay2win. According to 1 the new EVE model is pay2win, and it is not according to 2. But that is not important if there is a difference or not, you are derailing my point. I was explaining why people does not agree upon if it is pay2win or not. IMA Wreckyou made this post about that people who cannot see it is pay2win, is because they don't understand what pay2win really means. My point is people have different definitions of what pay2win means, hence it is a matter of definition and one of understanding. Pay2win was originally used in the sense of type 2, where EVE does fit in.

I never said pay2advantage is okay, and pay2win is not in what i wrote. I said the discussion is futile as people will never agree. And Mr Myieyli don't forget we are only discussing if SP trading is pay2win, because pay2win is a bad label to get. The opponents of SP trading want to transfer the bad association of pay2win on the new sp trading model, so they can tell everyone how bad it is. Like punishing CCP for doing something they did not like, which is childlike name calling. That is why we have this very uninteresting discussion about pay2win IMO.

And so what if it gets the label pay2win? Why is this so important? The fact is that SP are already found in the whole spectrum, and for the single individual it will not make a big difference. If they think it does, they are free to compensate by buying injectors with ingame ISK they earned the hard way, and in that way level out the difference. When you hit the level caps, the SPs will not matter anymore.

I btw. am neutral about the SP changes (not pro as I don't necessarily think it should have been implemented), But it is here now, and the complaining is really out of proportion, compared to the effect IMO. There have been many examples of people against injectors using manipulated examples and hyperboles. This is what I am opposing.

"I'm all for pvp, don't get me wrong. I've ganked in Empire, blobed in low sec. Got T-shirts from every which-where.. But to be forced into a pvp confrontation that I didn't want is wrong ccp." RealFlisker
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#422 - 2016-03-03 11:53:16 UTC
sero Hita wrote:
Ima Wreckyou wrote:


So there is either no pay2win game at all, because you all take the term just literally and don't realize what it really means. Or you understand what people mean with the word (congratulations, you are now actually able to talk about it!) and realize that EVE fits the definition of the word and is even one of the worst games out there when it comes to purchasing advantages for money.

This has been discussed so many times, i is not even funny anymore. There are two definitions running around. 1) pay2win is paying for an advantage. 2) pay2win is paying for an advantage you could not get without paying. People of the two groups will never agree upon if EVE is pay2win for obvious reasons. Claiming that people who use definition 2, has not understood what definition 1 means, is just nonsensical. You have not understood, that they understand your definition, but they don't accept your definition.

As such this kind of discussion is futile. I do not understand your attitude towards people with another opinion though. I would be carefull with writing like you do, when your own understanding of what they mean is wrong.

Well I am so sad I did not address YOUR argument but instead addressed the argument EVERYONE ELSE including CCP Falcon is making, that EVE is not pay2win because you can't purchase player skills. You may also notice that this argument does not care if EVE uses version 1 or 2 of this definition.

So yes, if you have some critic about why my argument is bad, please address the actual argument instead of something completely different no one actually talked about.
sero Hita wrote:

Ima Wreckyou wrote:

What SP trading actually did:
It took one of the best things EVE had, a grind free character progression system and mutated it into a slow ticking paywall like it is used in every other pay2win games. That is just horrible, I hate it that they have done this to this game.

Any chinese free2play or zynga game disagree with you, as they are true pay2win for both definiton 1 and 2. EVE is only pay2win when using definition 1. So this model is not the most horrible. The arguments why this SP trading advantage is not really relevant on tranquility have been mentioned too many times to repeat. Don't forget also they SP injectors are very easily obtainable by in game isk grinding. So your assumption that this advantage is only for those who pay RL money is wrong.

I am not sure why your comment is relevant to my argument about how this changed the character skill mechanic from a passive system into a paywall. I don't really care if there are places where this is even worse to be honest. And this was not an argument about pay2win, it was about changing a game mechanic from a passive system into a paywall, does not matter if you pass that wall with mindless grind or money, it wasn't a wall before the change and now it is.

Evil RatKid
Spurty
#423 - 2016-03-03 12:14:08 UTC
What broke for you? I'm not sure I see what is now a problem outside of your epeen.

I'd love to see EVE flourish and get 10x as many subscribers online. The same names holding onto power for so long is not eve

There are good ships,

And wood ships,

And ships that sail the sea

But the best ships are Spaceships

Built by CCP
sero Hita
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#424 - 2016-03-03 12:34:02 UTC

Ima Wreckyou wrote:

I am not sure why your comment is relevant to my argument about how this changed the character skill mechanic from a passive system into a paywall. I don't really care if there are places where this is even worse to be honest. And this was not an argument about pay2win, it was about changing a game mechanic from a passive system into a paywall, does not matter if you pass that wall with mindless grind or money, it wasn't a wall before the change and now it is.

Calm down. was in a hurry and ****** up the quoting.
sero Hita wrote:

Any chinese free2play or zynga game disagree with you, as they are true pay2win for both definiton 1 and 2. EVE is only pay2win when using definition 1. So this model is not the most horrible. The arguments why this SP trading advantage is not really relevant on tranquility have been mentioned too many times to repeat. Don't forget also they SP injectors are very easily obtainable by in game isk grinding. So your assumption that this advantage is only for those who pay RL money is wrong.


was an answer to:
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
So there is either no pay2win game at all, because you all take the term just literally and don't realize what it really means. Or you understand what people mean with the word (congratulations, you are now actually able to talk about it!) and realize that EVE fits the definition of the word and is even one of the worst games out there when it comes to purchasing advantages for money..

My point was EVE is not by far the worst game in regards to puchasing advantages for money (YOUR claim, not mine). And the whole point of the definition discussion, comes from YOU (not me) inferring in the quoted part that people don't understand what pay2win means (and realize that EVE fits the definition of the word in regard to pay2win), when there are more definitions. There are so many ways to counter SP. I have been doing it for years against the veterans. IMO EVE is not Pay2win, as you can do the sp injection without paying real money, and the "advantage" is only on paper. So combining definition 2 with the player skills discussion, makes it seem like it is not pay2win IMO. Player skills could counter SP before the injectors, and it can still after. If you don't have skills you can get the same advantage by playing the game and buying injectors with ISK or wait the time.

But I am sure your brain shortcircuited in your rage, and you will just stomp on.

"I'm all for pvp, don't get me wrong. I've ganked in Empire, blobed in low sec. Got T-shirts from every which-where.. But to be forced into a pvp confrontation that I didn't want is wrong ccp." RealFlisker
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#425 - 2016-03-03 12:56:50 UTC
sero Hita wrote:

My point was EVE is not by far the worst game in regards to puchasing advantages for money (YOUR claim, not mine). And the whole point of the definition discussion, comes from YOU (not me) inferring in the quoted part that people don't understand what pay2win means (and realize that EVE fits the definition of the word in regard to pay2win), when there are more definitions. There are so many ways to counter SP. I have been doing it for years against the veterans. IMO EVE is not Pay2win, as you can do the sp injection without paying real money, and the "advantage" is only on paper. So combining definition 2 with the player skills discussion, makes it seem like it is not pay2win IMO. Player skills could counter SP before the injectors, and it can still after. If you don't have skills you can get the same advantage by playing the game and buying injectors with ISK or wait the time.

But I am sure your brain shortcircuited in your rage, and you will just stomp on.

It is true they could make it worse by selling stuff you can't trade ingame in the shop which gives you an advantage. Well all is good then, there is still room to make it worse, looks like we are not quite there yet..

But now you start again with the "player skill" argument, which isn't really an argument against pay2win since that is not something they would be able to sell anyway. And even if they sold stuff you can't resell on the market you would probably still use that argument and it would be as invalid then as it is now.

Answer this:
Would it be ok for you if the introduced a new line of ships, let's call them t4 pwn-mobiles and you could purchase the blueprint only on the cash shop? This still matches with your first definition since you can resell them on the market. Would that be a problem for you or not? if yes how is it different to SP extractors?

Evil RatKid
Kamahl Daikun
State War Academy
Caldari State
#426 - 2016-03-03 14:48:45 UTC
Commander Spurty wrote:
What broke for you? I'm not sure I see what is now a problem outside of your epeen.

I'd love to see EVE flourish and get 10x as many subscribers online. The same names holding onto power for so long is not eve


I think the big problem is the concept behind it.
I can't see how this would affect anyone's gameplay. It would make SP Requirements on certain Corps irrelevant since you could just Skill Inject past that.

The skill queue is one of the core parts of Eve. It's usually one of the first things someone thinks about when Eve Online is brought up. Unlike other MMOs where you reach a level and buy a skill book and instantly learn the skill, Eve says "No, you're going to wait the 20 days for this skill to train." Skill Injectors really kind of trivialize that by saying "No, you're going to wait the 20 days for this skill to train... OR buy a Skill Injector and be done with it."
It also fits in the P2W definition because you're gaining an advantage with cash by achieving something much faster than someone who didn't pay. It's not a matter of play time at this point, it's a matter of cash. I'll be using Neverwinter as an example because I really hate the way they ran that game:

Certain items (namely mainhand/offhand and accessories) can be leveled up by feeding RP items into it. Once it hits a certain level, it transfers to a new state and becomes stronger. Those items are always BiS. The problem is that several decisions by the management team have made RP items very hard to get in game. You can continue to grind them out but it'll take at least a few months to get the items to their last stage.
Or you can buy RP from the cash shop and be done with it. Same with item enchants: They have a 1% chance to succeed. However, there's a cash shop item that bumps that up to 100%. Certain mounts are obtainable in game. They're usually from seasonal events. However, the fastest mounts are always only available in the cash shop.

Moral of the story is: The P2W Model offers an advantage over other players who don't play. While you're grinding months to get RP items, someone else already has theirs maxed out because they paid.

In the Eve sense, sure, you can wait 20 days for Heavy/Sentry Drones 5 to train or you can buy Skill Injectors and be done with it. By buying the injectors, you've gained an advantage over the guy who's waiting 20 days until he's fully trained that skill up. Let's also not forget that aside from gating certain mods behind skill levels, certain skills also affect stats like Armor/Shield amount, max velocity, agility, etc.


From how I saw it, the Character Bazaar was more like a "I need an alt specialized in a certain thing but can't invest the money to sub another account and wait 6+ months for it" kind of situation. Skill Injectors set a kind of precedence that CCP is actually willing to degrade down to adding P2W elements, whereas before they never seem to have considered it.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#427 - 2016-03-03 14:55:15 UTC
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
This comes all down to word games it seams.

There is NO game where you can buy player skill, you can always just purchase an advantage.

Purchasing player skill is obviously not possible, but I am almost certain now that if it could be sold CCP would make a plan right now to market it in the New Eden store.

So there is either no pay2win game at all, because you all take the term just literally and don't realize what it really means. Or you understand what people mean with the word (congratulations, you are now actually able to talk about it!) and realize that EVE fits the definition of the word and is even one of the worst games out there when it comes to purchasing advantages for money.

What SP trading actually did:
It took one of the best things EVE had, a grind free character progression system and mutated it into a slow ticking paywall like it is used in every other pay2win games. That is just horrible, I hate it that they have done this to this game.
Bloody CCP.
Jenn aSnide agreed with me ...
... and now I am completely agreeing with Ima Wreckyou.

What have you done CCP?!
What have you done?!
You have crossed the streams!
Something is seriously wrong when these people start agreeing with each other!

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#428 - 2016-03-03 15:12:18 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Bloody CCP.
Jenn aSnide agreed with me ...


No, you in fact agreed with me. Just goes to show that even a stopped clock can be right twice a day.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#429 - 2016-03-03 16:12:26 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Bloody CCP.
Jenn aSnide agreed with me ...
No, you in fact agreed with me. Just goes to show that even a stopped clock can be right twice a day.
We break now for a message from our sponsors.
Jenn aSide wrote:
#1 Eff who ever is responsible for SP trading at CCP for they are also responsible for making me agree with Jenshae Chiroptera.
If I did agree with you, likewise, I do not remember it and it may well be incidental.
(I usually just scroll right past your posts) P

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Shallanna Yassavi
qwertz corp
#430 - 2016-03-04 01:50:52 UTC
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
This comes all down to word games it seams.

There is NO game where you can buy player skill, you can always just purchase an advantage.

Purchasing player skill is obviously not possible, but I am almost certain now that if it could be sold CCP would make a plan right now to market it in the New Eden store.

So there is either no pay2win game at all, because you all take the term just literally and don't realize what it really means. Or you understand what people mean with the word (congratulations, you are now actually able to talk about it!) and realize that EVE fits the definition of the word and is even one of the worst games out there when it comes to purchasing advantages for money.

What SP trading actually did:
It took one of the best things EVE had, a grind free character progression system and mutated it into a slow ticking paywall like it is used in every other pay2win games. That is just horrible, I hate it that they have done this to this game.


She figured it out.

This is half the reason certain goons keep getting CSM votes. At least some of them are good at figuring out how this game works.

A signature :o
Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#431 - 2016-03-05 04:25:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Daniela Doran
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
Daniela, it would be better not to quit.

I share your dislike of cash for skills, but quitting is not the answer.

It is better to say in the game and voice your dislike of the direction CCP seem to be heading in, i.e. monetizing as many aspects of the game they think they can get away with.

Yea I've read and liked most of your post on this subject as well Josef, but unfortunately I've already bleed most of my alts SP to death and sold them for a fortune just for the fun of it. I've already deleted 6 of my accounts and was gonna use the other 6 for PVP, but I find even that tedious as I just can't seem to get into this game anymore, it's just too fake to me now (like the spell Eve had me under has now been broken or something).

I only rant on the forums maybe once a week when I'm at work just to pass time so my involvement with Eve is non-existent nowadays. I advice you to save your time and just quit this awful game once your playtime ends before the SP trading wonder drug wears off. When that happens people are gonna start getting bored of this game and leaving in mass because this game no longer have any addicting game play features to keep players interested after 6 months (when they've already maxed all relevant SP in the game).
alindak Kahoudi
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#432 - 2016-03-05 05:06:06 UTC
My problem it’s really never been with skill extracting/injecting.
The idea is good, and I don’t think is pay to win, what I find DISGUSTING is CCP charging F*^&ng 300mil per extractor and having the monopoly to sell them. It was an oportunistic scavenger move to hop in the profits of players that had already paid to train that SP in the first place. Double dipped.
Anton Karnak
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#433 - 2016-03-05 17:19:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Anton Karnak
Double Post
Anton Karnak
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#434 - 2016-03-05 17:44:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Anton Karnak
Kamahl Daikun wrote:
The skill queue is one of the core parts of Eve. It's usually one of the first things someone thinks about when Eve Online is brought up.



You quite correctly point out this fact but fail to mention the overwhelming response to the skill queue, which isn't, "So you're stuck behind an arbitrary time gate? That's awesome.".
It's not Pay To Win.
it's Pay to Play, as in really play.
Time gates are a means to slow you down so you can't blow through the content.
The true "magic" of EVE is the fact that it has no defined beginning or end.
There is no Boss to defeat.
This is a universe where anything can happen at any time. Danger can lurk around every corner.
Skill Injectors have absolutely no effect on what makes EVE special.
Arbitrarily forcing your customers to wait behind a time gate to enjoy what is great about your product isn't a virtue. It doesn't create greater demand for your product. It doesn't increase access to your product.
It's dumb.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#435 - 2016-03-06 04:05:14 UTC
Daniela Doran wrote:
... I just can't seem to get into this game anymore, it's just too fake to me now (like the spell Eve had me under has now been broken or something). ...
I found your post immediately after sending this in a mail:
Quote:
EVE feels really fake to me lately.

SOV mechanics.
Why anyone would want SOV.
The fake wars.
The arranged fights.

I wonder what it must have been like back when people just did and the game was not already won?

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Galaxy Pig
New Order Logistics
CODE.
#436 - 2016-03-06 15:52:07 UTC
Read the whole damn rant. Not a single cogent point in any of it.

e.g.
"Character Bazaar is totally different!"
(fails to demonstrate how, other than stupid crap like character name and other things that don't seem to make any difference.)

Highsec is owned by players now. Systems 0.5-1.0 are New Order Territory. All miners and other residents of Highsec must obey The Code. Mining without a permit is dangerous and harmful to the EVE community. See www.MinerBumping.com
Jenshae Chiroptera
#437 - 2016-03-07 01:42:49 UTC
Galaxy Pig wrote:
e.g.
"Character Bazaar is totally different!"
(fails to demonstrate how, other than stupid crap like character name and other things that don't seem to make any difference.
Intel.
Kill board.
Age
Often public skills.
Knowing how little it might change.

A veteran can have a new toon get killed repeatedly to different groups then inject it to perfect skills and hustle people.
This will make them more risk adverse and take less fights.
Just the way people are.

Once the SP farms really kick in then expect people to whine about lack of fights and how people dock and hide.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Loradan Illstari
Illstari Industries
#438 - 2016-03-07 15:05:47 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Galaxy Pig wrote:
e.g.
"Character Bazaar is totally different!"
(fails to demonstrate how, other than stupid crap like character name and other things that don't seem to make any difference.
Intel.
Kill board.
Age
Often public skills.
Knowing how little it might change.

A veteran can have a new toon get killed repeatedly to different groups then inject it to perfect skills and hustle people.
This will make them more risk adverse and take less fights.
Just the way people are.

Once the SP farms really kick in then expect people to whine about lack of fights and how people dock and hide.


"Hustle people"? How the hell is he going to do that? Trick them at gambling? You and I both know that SP does not equate to victory in a fight. Any dramatic amount of SP change will also result in a ship change. I'm pretty sure you can tell what kind of ship they're flying the moment you see them on grid, so that's not surprise. Any other SP change will give them T2 modules at most as an upgrade. Better than T1, yes, but hardly game breaking.

Again, the only one worrying about their opponents having more SP than them is you. The rest of us accepted a long time ago that there were higher SP players out there and chose to go head to head with them anyways. Yes, you won't be able to gauge a player via their player age now. Oh well. It's really not that big of a deal. You'll have to treat all threats as threats instead of knowing a few easy kills when you see them. The horror.
Andrew Haiduk
Focused Radical Energy Engineering
#439 - 2016-03-07 19:18:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Andrew Haiduk
Disclosure

I am no longer playing EVE for the most part of many years now, did away with my characters and essentially have no stake in the game anymore and donated my assets and wealth to old comrades in arms that stil play.


My view on skills

Most games that have a skill or tech tree, have it on the timescale of one playing session / match. Skills in such situations offer a repetitieve choice, that match strategies and which have immediate impact on the current match. A strong player can micro-manage his way to make his play work with the least amount of hick-ups. So it actually ties into the skill of the player.

In EVE skills always acted as a time sink.
Skills have limited game-play value and absolutely no actual skill or fun value.

When it takes 6+ years of subscription to develop a character where you want it to be and try something out, then obviously it is quite a bad mechanic to have in there. Especially when having skills dictate what you can and cannot do.

EVE skills also suffer a problem many games have, where teams are of mixed skill levels. It just makes playing a strategy a hassle as for each participant a different set of options exists. This is one reason fleet doctrines exists, to reduce the hassle to a minimum by making everyone the same mediocre level.


then some...

The same sort of problems exist in EVE with respect to attributes and most of the standing mechanics.
Those are all horrible obsolete and anti-fun in their nature.
What they effectively do is turn EVE into a waiting and grinding game and much less fun then it can be.

The psychological underpinning of EVE has always been to limit players advance, while making them invested for the progress already made and by doing so, keep them subscribed. It is a nasty and very negative way of selling a product, but it obviously works for quite a few years when progress is experienced as such. Eventually, it will not be enough and that is where I started to play much less and eventually left altogether.

I have no doubt quite a few at CCP have a similar view as mine on this and would like to see changes. But change is hard with an invested existing customer base that has a long history of going trough all the grind. Many experience it as a badge of endurance and will rather see no change at all.

This is why changes are done slowly and in odd-ways that never hurts CCPs bottom line. Bypassing the original systems always costs someone real money for example. Unfortunately that makes it more and more feel like pay to win. Much cleaner would be to just get rid of skills and massively reduce the importance of standings. The later being easier to get mostly rid off has already seen some clean-up, more so then skills have.

I think the remaining players of EVE will have to come to grips that their characters identity is not the skills, but the person behind the character. Once that idea takes more hold, letting go of the skills system is much easier, but it means undoing years of cultivation and that won't be easy.

PS.

The new feature of SP trading at the expense of money guarantees skills can now never be removed from the game or else it that would lead to a revolt. This unfortunately means this change is actually just a quick money grab. I overestimated CCP again...sadly.
Kamahl Daikun
State War Academy
Caldari State
#440 - 2016-03-07 19:34:22 UTC
Anton Karnak wrote:
Kamahl Daikun wrote:
The skill queue is one of the core parts of Eve. It's usually one of the first things someone thinks about when Eve Online is brought up.



You quite correctly point out this fact but fail to mention the overwhelming response to the skill queue, which isn't, "So you're stuck behind an arbitrary time gate? That's awesome.".
It's not Pay To Win.
it's Pay to Play, as in really play.
Time gates are a means to slow you down so you can't blow through the content.
The true "magic" of EVE is the fact that it has no defined beginning or end.
There is no Boss to defeat.
This is a universe where anything can happen at any time. Danger can lurk around every corner.
Skill Injectors have absolutely no effect on what makes EVE special.
Arbitrarily forcing your customers to wait behind a time gate to enjoy what is great about your product isn't a virtue. It doesn't create greater demand for your product. It doesn't increase access to your product.
It's dumb.


So, going off your logic of time gates being dumb, why not just petition for removal of the skill queue entirely? Make it a traditional MMO: Buy the book and instantly learn the skill. Don't have to wait 20 days to throw a Fireball.

I think the idea of Eve's training times come from a more realistic approach. Sure, the universe exists in a futuristic sort of time where you're literally injecting knowledge into your brain. However, you're training up your efficiency at this skill. Similar to reading a book to learn how to repair a computer but then becoming more proficient at it with time.
So, let's say, you injected the basic operations to fly a Cruiser. Then when you're proficient enough, you're capable of flying a Navy Cruiser. Then T2 Cruisers. Then T3.

To be fair, I've my own gripes with the skill queue but it's one of the reasons I keep coming back. I've blown through every class on FFXIV and it's boring. Done all there is to do on Tera and it's boring. But when I get that notification on my phone that some skill is done training, I come back.