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Is EVE now P2W?

First post
Author
Varro Octavius
Octavian Basilicus
#81 - 2016-03-01 19:07:50 UTC
To OP.

Personal player skill cannot be bought, ever. Skill points only enable what part if the game you play and at what time. They can be gained with or without skill injectors. Pay to win is when an item in the cash shop is overpowered and is not available through in game means, only RMT.

Either way those skill points need to be payed for, a player could keep an account running for 10 years and be able to do anything but technically unless they've actually spent their own time playing and learning this game then their skill points don't account for much more than what ships they can fly.

#1 rule of EVE is there is always something else that can blap you. Am I wrong?
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#82 - 2016-03-01 19:46:38 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Skoomer wrote:
You can have all the SP in the world and still be **** if you dont know a thing the game mechanics so no
But this goes for all games. There's no game I know of that you can pay and literally just win. Every single one you still need to put what you've bought to good use and to do that you need to know the game mechanics and be remotely competent at the game.

P2W doesn't mean that you will win simply by paying, it means that by paying you can give yourself a significant advantage over a similarly experienced player that hasn't paid, which this obviously does.

That doesn't mean it's a bad thing to have in a game though.
Then eve has been p2w by your definition since Inception, as GTC and character sales have always been allowed.
Pretty much, just the extent of that has changed. Just seems silly to me that people claim it's not P2W just because you still need to play the game properly, which is identical in every P2W game I can think of.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Santo Trafficante
Kira Inc.
#83 - 2016-03-01 20:10:26 UTC
Skills wont save u from getting podded.

Kira is watching you....
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
#84 - 2016-03-01 20:43:54 UTC
MadTrojan Sarain wrote:

Just a player intrigued and want to hear your constructive thoughts at hand.

Sincerely




I see that you have failed to inject Forum Lurking to at least III, for if you had done so you would've seen that this waste of electrons is the 19083740929138249318685352097124831468024th 'earnest and constructive' discussion on SP trading. This brings nothing new to the table (unlike my post right here, as I've typed out a very long number and challenge you to say it), so shame on you, OP.

Perfection is a dish best served like wasabi .

Bumble's Space Log

annoing
Chuck Norris Kick Ass Corp
#85 - 2016-03-01 22:49:18 UTC
Terminal Insanity wrote:


so if WOW, or any other MMO let you pay money and get max level, with all the skills/etc.... that wouldnt be a problem for you?

Please quit videogames now. you are the cancer that is ruining my videogames.


Do you think you could be a bigger idiot if you tried just a little harder?
I've got underpants with more wit and personality that you.
Whether you think it or like it, he's got a valid point, from HIS point of view. He has the right to ask it. Also, who says the person that is buying the skills is someone without a clue in Eve? Maybe it's an Eve player who's been playing for years and has the real life cash to spend without the patience to train? Just because you don't agree means nothing. Actually, talking of nothing, that's exactly what you are...
Deck Cadelanne
CAStabouts
#86 - 2016-03-01 23:18:25 UTC
MadTrojan Sarain wrote:


Is EVE now officially P2W?



No.

MadTrojan Sarain wrote:



Why I ask this; you can now use skill injectors.
More to the point that someone, paid over $2k real money buying plex to sell for in game currency and then buying skill injectors to then become top skilled player.

So yes, I understand buying plex for in game currency has been around for a while as is using in game currency to buy plex time but now has it gone to far?

Does it even matter?



No.

MadTrojan Sarain wrote:


That someone playing ten years of hard core skill learning, to then be equalled by a paid player of same skill set from 1 day.



No.

SP is not in any way equivalent to actually knowing how to do anything in EVE.

Yes, a pile of SP potentially unlocks lots of ships, modules, etc. But it doesn't teach the player how to use them. It doesn't teach the player anything at all about how to actually play the game.

Will it be abused by some players?

Yes. Mostly more experienced ones who know better, but they're going to exploit it...because this is EVE.

Will newer players fall into the trap of thinking they can spend some RL cash and buy themselves an instant "win" account on EVE? Yes, because there are plenty of idiots in the world and some of them have money to burn.

"When the going gets weird, the weird turn professional."

- Hunter S. Thompson

Deck Cadelanne
CAStabouts
#87 - 2016-03-01 23:33:15 UTC
Lianara Dayton wrote:
@OP: yes, for all intents and purposes, EVE is now pay-to-win.

Sure, you still need player skill and won't win by default just because you dropped lots of money on the game but it will definitely make it much easier to win if you can afford to bypass years of training. It's the same as in a game like WOW: sure you can still lose even if you're fully epic equipped and fighting against people in greens and blues but nobody except the CCP apologists in this thread will attempt to split hairs and claim that this isn't pay-to-win (and, as they admit, only "pay-for-huge-advantage" ... which is obviously so much better). Shocked


So now you can buy your way to a titan, bypassing years of waiting to do so...but you can't bypass the years of learning how the game works, learning the mechanics, learning how to fly that ship, learning strategy or tactics in a meaningful context...so no, it isn't "much easier to win..." it's much easier to lose. A cursory look at the various killboards will show you the evidence.

Lianara Dayton wrote:

The people in this thread will tell you some drivel about skill points not being important but those are just lies.


Skillpoints are *far less* important than actual experience of playing the game. They just unlock toys.

Lianara Dayton wrote:

Obviously CCP agrees with me that SP are very important - otherwise they wouldn't have found it necessary to implement a "catch up" mechanic in the form of injectors, right?


Really? You really think "CCP agrees with me?"

No monocle here. No bittervet. But you really need to get a grip.

"When the going gets weird, the weird turn professional."

- Hunter S. Thompson

Adunh Slavy
#88 - 2016-03-02 02:06:29 UTC
Is it pay to win ... yeah, more or less. But with out knowing how to survive in Eve, they won't win much, except tears and bills.

The real winners are the older players that know how to play, those who build, mine and blow stuff up.

Be nice to the visitors, their death makes Eve's inverted broken window work.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt

Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#89 - 2016-03-02 02:19:23 UTC
Lots of times I send people paypal money to self-destruct their ships and pods.

#paying2win
Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
#90 - 2016-03-02 04:31:15 UTC
I guess depending on how you view the semantics of what is P2W, but then again that's literally like saying Eve was always P2W. SP distribution was always possible, there's just now another way to do just that, and perhaps one would say it's largely a much easier and simpler way to do so without all the extra quirks. Why everyone seems to be having such a hard time swallowing down the whole SP Injectors/Extractors this is beyond me. It's here, no way to change that. If that doesn't sit well with you, maybe it's time to try something else besides Eve. Eve will change constantly, and eventually it may loose its charm with me and I'll be leaving one day. This isn't it for me, though.

Fact of the matter is that SP is not the only deciding factor in gameplay; it's a tech gate at best with some residual improvements to how that very same tech works. Your own performance and quality of human skill and experience has a much bigger impact on any outcome in most cases. You still gotta drive the bus and a driver's license doesn't make you a professional driver (in fact, if you ever have seen how us Americans drive, you'd know that's especially true). If you don't agree with that sentiment and this really bothers you that much, why are you wasting YOUR time and energy barking at CCP on the forums and paying to pay a game you don't have any fun with anymore? Seriously, go find something you enjoy, even if Eve is no longer that enjoyable for you.

"Tomahawks?"

"----in' A, right?"

"Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each."

"----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."

Geronimo McVain
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#91 - 2016-03-02 07:52:07 UTC
I'm a noob, so please give me an example:
Take your favorite ship and your skills and show me how someone will have a huge advantage with more skills. And show me where the additional skillpoints will make a bigger difference compared to buying officer modules and fitting your ship with them from front to end.

Within a year you should have all the skills to perform your favorite ship at max skills (capitals excluded). SIs give you the chance to fly more!!! ships perfectly but it wouldn't give you an edge to someone focused on a special ship.

In a way EVE was P2W even bevor the invention of injectors because there was no way for a noob to catch up to a 10 year vet (who payed 10 years for that advantage) no matter how hard he tried. Now the noob, if he is dedicated to grind, can make the ISK ingame to buy SIs and catch up to the vet. You don't need to buy plex to make ISK but the SELLER!!! needs to invest real money for aurum. Buying PLEX is faster, sure, but don't necessarily need to while the seller HAS TO spend real money for aurum.

So who is playing the P2W game: the one who sells SP or the one who buys?
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#92 - 2016-03-02 09:11:19 UTC
Yes it is.

Now, where do I file for damages?

And why does a noob need to is-box 28957845912ß4760724057015 pirate ships it should not be sitting in for the next 6 years?

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

Freelancer117
So you want to be a Hero
#93 - 2016-03-02 09:55:04 UTC
Thanks CCP for showing us the true meaning of the Company monetization scheme by allowing Ironbank to max skill in 3 days Pirate
source : http://eveboard.com/pilot/IronBank?level=5

Regards, a Freelancer

ps: it was the best poster boy example to read about on oog gaming media sites, you showed your Greed to the masses there.

Eve online is :

A) mining simulator B) glorified chatroom C) spreadsheets online

D) CCP Games Pay to Win at skill leveling, with instant gratification

http://eve-radio.com//images/photos/3419/223/34afa0d7998f0a9a86f737d6.jpg

http://bit.ly/1egr4mF

Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
CODE.
#94 - 2016-03-02 09:55:31 UTC
It seams the community is at a point where CCP can start to add golden ammo and special ships or blueprints to the cash store. Hey it's still not pay2win because you have to know how to fly the ship right?
Kamahl Daikun
Perkone
Caldari State
#95 - 2016-03-02 19:48:50 UTC
Geronimo McVain wrote:
I'm a noob, so please give me an example:
Take your favorite ship and your skills and show me how someone will have a huge advantage with more skills.


Higher Navigation skills = more mobility
Higher Gunnery/Missile skills = More RoF, T2 Guns/Ammo
Higher Armor/Shield skills = more tank

Do I need to go on?
Pilot A has similar piloting skill to Pilot B. Pilot A has 5m SP. Pilot B has 50m SP.
Player B wins.

Geronimo McVain wrote:
And show me where the additional skillpoints will make a bigger difference compared to buying officer modules and fitting your ship with them from front to end.


Because certain skills affect certain stats.
Putting Officer/DS prop mods on your ship make it faster since T2 is never a good option. However, with **** Nav skills, that other guy is still going faster. Officer/DS tank mods are nice. Too bad that guy who trained them all to 5 still has a stronger tank.

Geronimo McVain wrote:
Within a year you should have all the skills to perform your favorite ship at max skills (capitals excluded). SIs give you the chance to fly more!!! ships perfectly but it wouldn't give you an edge to someone focused on a special ship.


I think the point here is that variety is the better option in almost every scenario in Eve.
For PvE, I used to fly a RNI. The RNI blows through most missions but some are ridiculously tough. Then I got a Domi and started swapping between the two based on mission. Moral of the story: Variety is better.

I used to main Caldari for PvP. Then I realized how bad of a decision that was. Now I'm cross-trained into every race and I can fly most doctrines. Moral of the story: Variety.

Even for solo, variety is the better option. If your intent is to just fly your favorite ship with no concern for viability or success, go ahead. However, for the rest of us who don't find losing fun, variety is the better option.

Geronimo McVain wrote:
In a way EVE was P2W even bevor the invention of injectors because there was no way for a noob to catch up to a 10 year vet (who payed 10 years for that advantage) no matter how hard he tried. Now the noob, if he is dedicated to grind, can make the ISK ingame to buy SIs and catch up to the vet. You don't need to buy plex to make ISK but the SELLER!!! needs to invest real money for aurum. Buying PLEX is faster, sure, but don't necessarily need to while the seller HAS TO spend real money for aurum.


Yea, it doesn't exactly work like that.
Another problem that people seem to be having is not realizing how much SP actually matters. For the sake of PvP, everything really lies in the Frig-BC range of ships. Capitals are their own beast and require a lot to make it worth undocking so I won't even mention those for now. To train all 4 races' Frig-BC range of ships to 5 doesn't take a lot of SP. Factor in core fitting skills to 5, navigation skills to 5, tank skills to 5, and weapon systems to 5, you're looking at a lot less than 100m SP. Probably falls somewhere in the 50m SP range if that.
So, the question is: Assuming you can get all relevant skills to 5 for the Frigate to Battlecruiser range of ships for all 4 races at around 50m SP, where's the validity in the argument that someone who played for 10 years is infinitely better than someone who played for 2 years simply because of SP?

Geronimo McVain wrote:
So who is playing the P2W game: the one who sells SP or the one who buys?


The ones who know what P2W means are calling it P2W. Because it fits the definition: Pay for the ability to do something in a smaller amount of time, thus gaining an advantage over those who don't pay.
Pandora Carrollon
Provi Rapid Response
Federation Uprising
#96 - 2016-03-02 20:21:24 UTC
Kamahl Daikun wrote:
The ones who know what P2W means are calling it P2W. Because it fits the definition: Pay for the ability to do something in a smaller amount of time, thus gaining an advantage over those who don't pay.


Careful, your definition is contradicting itself.

P2W = Pay to Win

Your term is P4A = Pay for Advantage

That is true for all MMO's and is thus, equal.

Literally P2W is not possible or applicable in EVE. Used colloquially, it's actually meaning P4A which you cite as your definition above. Because P4A is actually an entire Life staple of the universe and existence, EVE has nothing to change or worry about.

Life is P4A. When you realize that, it's far easier to move on and make it work for you.
Kamahl Daikun
Perkone
Caldari State
#97 - 2016-03-02 20:40:23 UTC
Pandora Carrollon wrote:
Kamahl Daikun wrote:
The ones who know what P2W means are calling it P2W. Because it fits the definition: Pay for the ability to do something in a smaller amount of time, thus gaining an advantage over those who don't pay.


Careful, your definition is contradicting itself.

P2W = Pay to Win

Your term is P4A = Pay for Advantage

That is true for all MMO's and is thus, equal.

Literally P2W is not possible or applicable in EVE. Used colloquially, it's actually meaning P4A which you cite as your definition above. Because P4A is actually an entire Life staple of the universe and existence, EVE has nothing to change or worry about.

Life is P4A. When you realize that, it's far easier to move on and make it work for you.


No, you're just not understanding the definition.
The acronym doesn't allude to its definition. If it did, P2W would've never become a phrase in the first place since it's not possible to "win" any online game. It's a misnomer.

You can argue semantics all you want but the definition is still valid.
Technically, buying characters off the Bazaar is P2W too.
Leeluvv
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#98 - 2016-03-02 20:55:04 UTC
Eve doesn't run well on my 486DX2 66, but my mate paid $10,000 on a whizz-bang PC and now he can kill me, cos my PC is so crap. I hate that this game is now P2W.
Droidster
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#99 - 2016-03-02 21:07:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Droidster
MadTrojan Sarain wrote:
As the title say's.

Is EVE now officially P2W?

Why I ask this; you can now use skill injectors.
More to the point that someone, paid over $2k real money buying plex to sell for in game currency and then buying skill injectors to then become top skilled player.

So yes, I understand buying plex for in game currency has been around for a while as is using in game currency to buy plex time but now has it gone to far?

Does it even matter?
That someone playing ten years of hard core skill learning, to then be equalled by a paid player of same skill set from 1 day.

Yes experience counts for a lot but then the real question because; why have skill's now?
If you can rush game content in a lot of way's...

Has this diluted what CCP was?

Just a player intrigued and want to hear your constructive thoughts at hand.

Sincerely


Yes it is pay 2 win now and in fact it is worse than you describe because what you are missing is that injector players can focus their training on exactly what they need, but a 10-year-old player will have usually trained a bunch of unrelated skills.

For example, let's say they are two players who are vying to be a titan pilot in their corporation which involves getting the corporation to help pay for it and obtain the modules, among other things. One candidate has 5 years training, the other 10 years. Normally, the 10 year player will have a big advantage skill-wise, but with skill injectors the 5 year player can just buy the exact skills he needs to surpass the 10-year player. For example, some critical skills are Titan V, Doomsday V, and a weapon 5 like Citadel Cruise Missiles V. Training those skills could easily take 3 months for the 10-year-old player, but the 5-year-old player with skill injectors can just buy them instantly. Guess who the corporation is going to pick, other things being equal? The guy who has Doomsday V. This can allow a 5-year player to just buy his way into a Titan or other key content in the game.
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
Transgress
#100 - 2016-03-02 21:14:49 UTC
Divine Entervention wrote:
Lots of times I send people paypal money to self-destruct their ships and pods.

#paying2win

you sir are definitely not winning in that particular scenario