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Use a ship Scanner to see what ships are piloted in Citadels
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helana Tsero
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1 - 2016-02-27 01:59:12 UTC  |  Edited by: helana Tsero
I live in a wormhole. In order to find content with no local we warp cloaked to POSs to see if wormhole residents are active.

Example - If I see I two piloted marauders sitting at a POS with many sites in system I am likely to sit cloaked off that POS for a while to see if they go and run sites.

With the citadel expansion, those marauders will be docked and hidden so current intel gathering will be removed. Its already very time consuming to find PVP content in WH space, with citadels it will be even harder.

So Id like to propose the following.

- When pilots are online and inside a citadel the hanger lights will be on (believe already implemented by CCP)
- Allow a ship scanner to be used by a cloaked covert ops ship on grid with a citadel. The scanner would list what ships are piloted in the citadel (only piloted ships not every ship in citadel).

This will greatly help residents of wormhole space to continue to find content and will promote scouting as a valuable and interesting profession.

thanks for your time.

"...ppl need to get out of caves and they will see something new.... thats where eve is placed... not in cave."  | zoonr-Korsairs |

Meanwhile Citadel release issues: "tried to bug report this and the bug report is bugged as well" | Rafeau |
Praal
Bearded BattleBears
#2 - 2016-02-27 02:31:47 UTC
I think this would be reasonable if you had to decloak, lock and scan the citadel.
helana Tsero
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#3 - 2016-02-27 02:40:17 UTC  |  Edited by: helana Tsero
Praal wrote:
I think this would be reasonable if you had to decloak, lock and scan the citadel.


but then you have given away your presence to the opposition. They wont leave their citadel if someone is watching them. It becomes like null.. see neutral in local -> run away and dock up / stay docked.

"...ppl need to get out of caves and they will see something new.... thats where eve is placed... not in cave."  | zoonr-Korsairs |

Meanwhile Citadel release issues: "tried to bug report this and the bug report is bugged as well" | Rafeau |
Khan Wrenth
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#4 - 2016-02-27 02:51:08 UTC
No free intel. Decloak, lock and scan, re-cloak and hope you weren't seen or blapped in that narrow window of opportunity. Why do you think you should be given special privilege to get intel on them without exposing yourself? That's a ridiculous idea from the get-go and CCP is finally starting to realize that as they are gearing up to remove watchlists from the game.

Plus your idea goes against two foundational properties of using a cloak - you can't lock something and you can't use modules. Neither one of those is going to change just so you can scan down a citadel to find out what's in there.

And you know what makes something valuable? It not being easy. The easier you make something, the more people can do it effortlessly. If you want to make scouting valued, I'm sorry, but you have to make it harder so the less committed people fall by the wayside and the job falls to you. If you are the only person in your alliance willing to put in the work necessary, then you are an invaluable part of the team. Don't ask for special privilege to make your job easier, ask for your job to be more difficult so less people are qualified or willing.

If you really want to know who's in there, you should risk your ship and pod to find out. If you want less risk, park outside the dang thing a few hundred kilometers and wait, like cops on a stakeout. Heck, you could be lazy and set a program to video record your window while you are away so you can later come back and fast-forward through the video feed and see who comes and goes, in what, and when. But that takes initiative, dedication, and resources (and provides more intel than a simple list of who's in there now). Are YOU willing to put in the effort to do it? If not, make way for those that will.

Let's discuss overhauling the way we get intel in EvE.
helana Tsero
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#5 - 2016-02-27 03:00:31 UTC  |  Edited by: helana Tsero
Khan Wrenth wrote:
No free intel. Decloak, lock and scan, re-cloak and hope you weren't seen or blapped in that narrow window of opportunity. Why do you think you should be given special privilege to get intel on them without exposing yourself? That's a ridiculous idea from the get-go and CCP is finally starting to realize that as they are gearing up to remove watchlists from the game.

Plus your idea goes against two foundational properties of using a cloak - you can't lock something and you can't use modules. Neither one of those is going to change just so you can scan down a citadel to find out what's in there.

And you know what makes something valuable? It not being easy. The easier you make something, the more people can do it effortlessly. If you want to make scouting valued, I'm sorry, but you have to make it harder so the less committed people fall by the wayside and the job falls to you. If you are the only person in your alliance willing to put in the work necessary, then you are an invaluable part of the team. Don't ask for special privilege to make your job easier, ask for your job to be more difficult so less people are qualified or willing.

If you really want to know who's in there, you should risk your ship and pod to find out. If you want less risk, park outside the dang thing a few hundred kilometers and wait, like cops on a stakeout. Heck, you could be lazy and set a program to video record your window while you are away so you can later come back and fast-forward through the video feed and see who comes and goes, in what, and when. But that takes initiative, dedication, and resources (and provides more intel than a simple list of who's in there now). Are YOU willing to put in the effort to do it? If not, make way for those that will.


LOL.. obviously you dont live in wormholes. how about I remove your local.. and then come and talk to me about intel and having to work to find content. In wormholes it already takes hours to find kills.. Ive reguarly been on hunts for 4 hours to kill a single battleship. Do we all have no life and just live in eve 24/7 ?

When you talk about risk for the scout on the citadel.. sorry man..you do not understand how it works. Its about keeping hidden so your target will undock. I'l gladly throw away a buzzard if it means getting a marauder r or them bringing a fight. but the fact remains.. you expose your scout the opposition doesn't undock.

I actually would be fine if the ability to scan citadels cloaked only applied in wormholes.

EDIT. I read some of your intel change proposals. Having delayed local in null is something I would support. But I think you underestimate the time it take to find content without local.. Its a game and people do not have hours and hours to simply find a target.

"...ppl need to get out of caves and they will see something new.... thats where eve is placed... not in cave."  | zoonr-Korsairs |

Meanwhile Citadel release issues: "tried to bug report this and the bug report is bugged as well" | Rafeau |
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#6 - 2016-02-27 03:21:00 UTC
helana Tsero wrote:
I live in a wormhole. In order to find content with no local we warp cloaked to POSs to see if wormhole residents are active...


Translation:

We are so risk averse that we need intel on what may come our way so we can fit whatever we need to win and remove the content after.
We also never loose a fight - we bring enough and still wonder why 2 daft marauder pilots do not want to be ganked in a 3 billion hull?

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
helana Tsero
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#7 - 2016-02-27 03:32:25 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
helana Tsero wrote:
I live in a wormhole. In order to find content with no local we warp cloaked to POSs to see if wormhole residents are active...


Translation:

We are so risk averse that we need intel on what may come our way so we can fit whatever we need to win and remove the content after.
We also never loose a fight - we bring enough and still wonder why 2 daft marauder pilots do not want to be ganked in a 3 billion hull?


If your that dumb and think that setting up marauder ganks is the only use for gathering pilots at POS intel..then Im sorry but I really cant be bothered with you.

"...ppl need to get out of caves and they will see something new.... thats where eve is placed... not in cave."  | zoonr-Korsairs |

Meanwhile Citadel release issues: "tried to bug report this and the bug report is bugged as well" | Rafeau |
Barrett Fruitcake
Doomheim
#8 - 2016-02-27 10:35:33 UTC
You should not be able to tell what ships are piloted in a Citadel remotely.

Maybe if you are docked you could have a chance to bribe the dockhands to find out, but if you fail you should get booted from station and an alarm sounds announcing the potential breach in security.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#9 - 2016-02-27 15:07:00 UTC
helana Tsero wrote:
Khan Wrenth wrote:
No free intel. Decloak, lock and scan, re-cloak and hope you weren't seen or blapped in that narrow window of opportunity. Why do you think you should be given special privilege to get intel on them without exposing yourself? That's a ridiculous idea from the get-go and CCP is finally starting to realize that as they are gearing up to remove watchlists from the game.

Plus your idea goes against two foundational properties of using a cloak - you can't lock something and you can't use modules. Neither one of those is going to change just so you can scan down a citadel to find out what's in there.

And you know what makes something valuable? It not being easy. The easier you make something, the more people can do it effortlessly. If you want to make scouting valued, I'm sorry, but you have to make it harder so the less committed people fall by the wayside and the job falls to you. If you are the only person in your alliance willing to put in the work necessary, then you are an invaluable part of the team. Don't ask for special privilege to make your job easier, ask for your job to be more difficult so less people are qualified or willing.

If you really want to know who's in there, you should risk your ship and pod to find out. If you want less risk, park outside the dang thing a few hundred kilometers and wait, like cops on a stakeout. Heck, you could be lazy and set a program to video record your window while you are away so you can later come back and fast-forward through the video feed and see who comes and goes, in what, and when. But that takes initiative, dedication, and resources (and provides more intel than a simple list of who's in there now). Are YOU willing to put in the effort to do it? If not, make way for those that will.


LOL.. obviously you dont live in wormholes. how about I remove your local.. and then come and talk to me about intel and having to work to find content. In wormholes it already takes hours to find kills.. Ive reguarly been on hunts for 4 hours to kill a single battleship. Do we all have no life and just live in eve 24/7 ?

When you talk about risk for the scout on the citadel.. sorry man..you do not understand how it works. Its about keeping hidden so your target will undock. I'l gladly throw away a buzzard if it means getting a marauder r or them bringing a fight. but the fact remains.. you expose your scout the opposition doesn't undock.

I actually would be fine if the ability to scan citadels cloaked only applied in wormholes.

EDIT. I read some of your intel change proposals. Having delayed local in null is something I would support. But I think you underestimate the time it take to find content without local.. Its a game and people do not have hours and hours to simply find a target.


Yes I should be able to know who and what is there without exposing myself to any risk until I'm ready to engage

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
eBil Tycoon
Empty Wallets
#10 - 2016-02-27 15:28:04 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
helana Tsero wrote:
Khan Wrenth wrote:
No free intel. Decloak, lock and scan, re-cloak and hope you weren't seen or blapped in that narrow window of opportunity. Why do you think you should be given special privilege to get intel on them without exposing yourself? That's a ridiculous idea from the get-go and CCP is finally starting to realize that as they are gearing up to remove watchlists from the game.

Plus your idea goes against two foundational properties of using a cloak - you can't lock something and you can't use modules. Neither one of those is going to change just so you can scan down a citadel to find out what's in there.

And you know what makes something valuable? It not being easy. The easier you make something, the more people can do it effortlessly. If you want to make scouting valued, I'm sorry, but you have to make it harder so the less committed people fall by the wayside and the job falls to you. If you are the only person in your alliance willing to put in the work necessary, then you are an invaluable part of the team. Don't ask for special privilege to make your job easier, ask for your job to be more difficult so less people are qualified or willing.

If you really want to know who's in there, you should risk your ship and pod to find out. If you want less risk, park outside the dang thing a few hundred kilometers and wait, like cops on a stakeout. Heck, you could be lazy and set a program to video record your window while you are away so you can later come back and fast-forward through the video feed and see who comes and goes, in what, and when. But that takes initiative, dedication, and resources (and provides more intel than a simple list of who's in there now). Are YOU willing to put in the effort to do it? If not, make way for those that will.


LOL.. obviously you dont live in wormholes. how about I remove your local.. and then come and talk to me about intel and having to work to find content. In wormholes it already takes hours to find kills.. Ive reguarly been on hunts for 4 hours to kill a single battleship. Do we all have no life and just live in eve 24/7 ?

When you talk about risk for the scout on the citadel.. sorry man..you do not understand how it works. Its about keeping hidden so your target will undock. I'l gladly throw away a buzzard if it means getting a marauder r or them bringing a fight. but the fact remains.. you expose your scout the opposition doesn't undock.

I actually would be fine if the ability to scan citadels cloaked only applied in wormholes.

EDIT. I read some of your intel change proposals. Having delayed local in null is something I would support. But I think you underestimate the time it take to find content without local.. Its a game and people do not have hours and hours to simply find a target.


Yes I should be able to know who and what is there without exposing myself to any risk until I'm ready to engage

Then join the corp and enter the citadel as a resident. That aside you probably won't be able to tell.
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#11 - 2016-02-27 15:39:09 UTC
It seems that a simple problem with your idea has escaped the others who have responded so far so let me correct that situation.
You want a module that will allow you to see the ships that are docked INSIDE a structure AND you want to be able to do this while you are safely cloaked AND you claim you need this so you can find targets to shoot. How about no way in hell.

-1 in case there is any doubt.

helana Tsero wrote:
LOL.. obviously you dont live in wormholes. how about I remove your local.. and then come and talk to me about intel and having to work to find content. In wormholes it already takes hours to find kills.. Ive reguarly been on hunts for 4 hours to kill a single battleship. Do we all have no life and just live in eve 24/7 ?

I would almost feel sorry for your lost hours of game time trying to find a target to shoot IF and that is a huge IF you were required by the game to live in your worm hole. However since living in your little worm hole is YOUR choice then you have to suffer the consequences of that decision and very few targets to shoot is just one of those consequences. If you want fights I suggest you try to move your little party to a low sec area I am willing to bet the locals will give you all the fight you can handle.
Iain Cariaba
#12 - 2016-02-27 15:48:28 UTC
helana Tsero wrote:
LOL.. obviously you dont live in wormholes. how about I remove your local.. and then come and talk to me about intel and having to work to find content. In wormholes it already takes hours to find kills.. Ive reguarly been on hunts for 4 hours to kill a single battleship. Do we all have no life and just live in eve 24/7 ?

You may live in a wormhole, but obviously you and your corp don't know how to do it right. The times I lived in wormholes was with groups who knew what they were doing, so we never had a problem finding fights.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#13 - 2016-02-27 16:21:00 UTC
Iain Cariaba wrote:
helana Tsero wrote:
LOL.. obviously you dont live in wormholes. how about I remove your local.. and then come and talk to me about intel and having to work to find content. In wormholes it already takes hours to find kills.. Ive reguarly been on hunts for 4 hours to kill a single battleship. Do we all have no life and just live in eve 24/7 ?

You may live in a wormhole, but obviously you and your corp don't know how to do it right. The times I lived in wormholes was with groups who knew what they were doing, so we never had a problem finding fights.


In my experience you can generally find a fight just asking the holes residents of they want a fight

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#14 - 2016-02-27 16:33:32 UTC
helana Tsero wrote:
Praal wrote:
I think this would be reasonable if you had to decloak, lock and scan the citadel.


but then you have given away your presence to the opposition. They wont leave their citadel if someone is watching them. It becomes like null.. see neutral in local -> run away and dock up / stay docked.

It is a perfectly reasonable tradeoff.

If you want more detailed intel, you have to expose yourself and risk being seen.


Oh... and it should still have a limit on how effective it is (much like cargo scanners, which randomly detect about 60 to 80% of what is inside a ship).

How did you Veterans start?
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
#15 - 2016-02-27 17:00:51 UTC
helana Tsero wrote:

If your that dumb




And with that, any remaining vestiges of credibility you may still have had have evaporated like so many snowballs on the surface of the Sun.

Perfection is a dish best served like wasabi .

Bumble's Space Log
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#16 - 2016-02-27 18:57:19 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Iain Cariaba wrote:
helana Tsero wrote:
LOL.. obviously you dont live in wormholes. how about I remove your local.. and then come and talk to me about intel and having to work to find content. In wormholes it already takes hours to find kills.. Ive reguarly been on hunts for 4 hours to kill a single battleship. Do we all have no life and just live in eve 24/7 ?

You may live in a wormhole, but obviously you and your corp don't know how to do it right. The times I lived in wormholes was with groups who knew what they were doing, so we never had a problem finding fights.


In my experience you can generally find a fight just asking the holes residents of they want a fight


That reminds me of something that happend on the live server back when I tried the wormhole thing for the first time.

Our corp lived in a class 3 hole with a null-static and we had a wandering hole from a class 2 hole. I was at a tower and a few corpmates were out in null.
Was a small gang of 5 people and they asked in local "pew pew?" I thought that was really nice of them and I said "not today".

Response was "aww, later then..." and they left.

Point being, just ask. If all wormhole residents would be so nice as they were, I would role holes just to find them again, since they just wanted a fight, a kind of fight that I would call a good fight.

Engagable and no had feelings (not 49058395879057 proteus with 53078507848 guardians and 3000 carriers). No intel needed.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
unimatrix0030
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2016-02-27 20:51:28 UTC  |  Edited by: unimatrix0030
elitatwo wrote:
helana Tsero wrote:
I live in a wormhole. In order to find content with no local we warp cloaked to POSs to see if wormhole residents are active...


Translation:

We are so risk averse that we need intel on what may come our way so we can fit whatever we need to win and remove the content after.
We also never loose a fight - we bring enough and still wonder why 2 daft marauder pilots do not want to be ganked in a 3 billion hull?

It is not about being risk averse.
The thing is with citadels you won't see ships in a forcefield being piloted.
So the ways you can get intell is going down quite a bit.
No more seeing on d-scan where there are ships at at pos.
No more seeing when people are online.
Thank bob, there is no local in wh's, local should be removed everywhere but high sec. That is the worst kind of intell, it is instant and can never be countered.
With both of these gone how will you know if you are looking at a citadel with people online planning to do stuff?
How can you know that they are even there? How can you find content?
Can you stare att a citadel for 2 hours each day hoping someone will come out?
A big part of wh hunting is not letting your prey know there is someone there.
With citadels you risk a lot of scouts to get burnout just because you don't see who is online.
There should always be a way to get intell.
More active involement more intell.
A good way would be if you are on grid with a citadel, you see who is online and in the citadel.
If you decloak and use the ship scanner, you can see in wich ships they are in and the citadel weapons.
It will make it harder for scouts, because they will need to be on grid.
It keeps the cloaky askpect, and gives and advantage to the scout if you decloak.
It also give the definding side a way to detect a scout and shoot it with the guns of the citadel.
Scout burnout is the thing to watch out for in wh-space with the citadels.
Scouts are the main content makers in wh-space, don't burn them out.

Asking people to fight is not fun, catching people who then escalate is more, fun and that is the fun you want to remove it seems.

No local in null sec would fix everything!
helana Tsero
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#18 - 2016-02-27 22:35:15 UTC  |  Edited by: helana Tsero
unimatrix0030 wrote:

It is not about being risk averse.
The thing is with citadels you won't see ships in a forcefield being piloted.
So the ways you can get intell is going down quite a bit.
No more seeing on d-scan where there are ships at at pos.
No more seeing when people are online.
Thank bob, there is no local in wh's, local should be removed everywhere but high sec. That is the worst kind of intell, it is instant and can never be countered.
With both of these gone how will you know if you are looking at a citadel with people online planning to do stuff?
How can you know that they are even there? How can you find content?
Can you stare att a citadel for 2 hours each day hoping someone will come out?
A big part of wh hunting is not letting your prey know there is someone there.
With citadels you risk a lot of scouts to get burnout just because you don't see who is online.
There should always be a way to get intell.
More active involement more intell.
A good way would be if you are on grid with a citadel, you see who is online and in the citadel.
If you decloak and use the ship scanner, you can see in wich ships they are in and the citadel weapons.
It will make it harder for scouts, because they will need to be on grid.
It keeps the cloaky askpect, and gives and advantage to the scout if you decloak.
It also give the definding side a way to detect a scout and shoot it with the guns of the citadel.
Scout burnout is the thing to watch out for in wh-space with the citadels.
Scouts are the main content makers in wh-space, don't burn them out.

Asking people to fight is not fun, catching people who then escalate is more, fun and that is the fun you want to remove it seems.


Someone who actually wormholes.

To the rest. You dont wormhole.. you dont know what your talking about. .. it has nothing to do with being risk adverse.. its about preventing the opposition from seeing your scout.. if they see your scout 9/10 times they will not undock/ leave the forcefield. .. Wormholes is about cloaky scouting...its how content is found.

You dont wormhole so you do not understand the space. its not the same as low sec or null.

"...ppl need to get out of caves and they will see something new.... thats where eve is placed... not in cave."  | zoonr-Korsairs |

Meanwhile Citadel release issues: "tried to bug report this and the bug report is bugged as well" | Rafeau |
helana Tsero
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#19 - 2016-02-27 22:42:01 UTC  |  Edited by: helana Tsero
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Iain Cariaba wrote:
helana Tsero wrote:
LOL.. obviously you dont live in wormholes. how about I remove your local.. and then come and talk to me about intel and having to work to find content. In wormholes it already takes hours to find kills.. Ive reguarly been on hunts for 4 hours to kill a single battleship. Do we all have no life and just live in eve 24/7 ?

You may live in a wormhole, but obviously you and your corp don't know how to do it right. The times I lived in wormholes was with groups who knew what they were doing, so we never had a problem finding fights.


In my experience you can generally find a fight just asking the holes residents of they want a fight


Depends on which corp you belong too. If your a member of a pvp wormhole corp the chances of residents of random x wh agreeing to a fight are pretty slim. They will stay POSd up and/or log off.

"...ppl need to get out of caves and they will see something new.... thats where eve is placed... not in cave."  | zoonr-Korsairs |

Meanwhile Citadel release issues: "tried to bug report this and the bug report is bugged as well" | Rafeau |
Lugh Crow-Slave
#20 - 2016-02-28 00:07:20 UTC
helana Tsero wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Iain Cariaba wrote:
helana Tsero wrote:
LOL.. obviously you dont live in wormholes. how about I remove your local.. and then come and talk to me about intel and having to work to find content. In wormholes it already takes hours to find kills.. Ive reguarly been on hunts for 4 hours to kill a single battleship. Do we all have no life and just live in eve 24/7 ?

You may live in a wormhole, but obviously you and your corp don't know how to do it right. The times I lived in wormholes was with groups who knew what they were doing, so we never had a problem finding fights.


In my experience you can generally find a fight just asking the holes residents of they want a fight


Depends on which corp you belong too. If your a member of a pvp wormhole corp the chances of residents of random x wh agreeing to a fight are pretty slim. They will stay POSd up and/or log off.


Generally so long as you don't have a reputation of breaking roe that get set up your fine it being T3s when you she to t1 cruisers or bobbing a 1v1


What I can't understand is why you feel entitled to risk free intel. Just because you had it before? I have nothing wrong if the scout nerfs to decloak to see what's going on in a Citadel but no risk no reward.

I remember when I first joins a wh corp back before all the mechanics were fully understood and techniques hadn't been mastered. Since then any little change to wh gameplay has been rejected. I woo admit the current balance in wh space is probably the best in eve and the idea of ruining that does scare me but I wouldn't mind things changing. If content in wh dies wind up starving after this then yes maybe it will need to be changed but before we know is broken let's not try and fix it

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
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