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[March] Damage Control Tiericide

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Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#801 - 2016-02-27 20:54:51 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
That's not choosing that's having something forced upon you. Every single small group out there is getting hit hard by this change.
You mean all those small groups that don't gank freighters? You have the choice of how to adapt to the change. Of course you do have the choice of "cry and hope CCP feels sorry for you" but that's not likely to help really.

baltec1 wrote:
Again bullshit. Point out to me in what world 157,000 ehp is a small amount.
*Points at reality* This one. When taking the EHP change in context with the other factors that affect ganking difficulty, it's a small change to overall ganking difficulty.

baltec1 wrote:
You saying that and it being true are two very very different things. You are well known round here for your years of nerf calls. Its never going to be enough for you and you have zero interest in balance. As shown by your near total lack of addressing the DCU mod itself.
Yes, but I'm only well known for those things by people like you who will slander the ever living **** out of people to push your own agenda. The reality is that I participate in ganking, fully understand why it exists, don't at all wish for it to be removed but do think there are serious balance issues. Your problem is that if someone says "this should be harder" and it would negatively affect you, you have this instant keejerk reaction and take what they said as "this entire playstyle should be removed". That's your own problem and doesn't really affect me.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

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Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#802 - 2016-02-27 20:58:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucas Kell
baltec1 wrote:
If you are ganking for profit, and nearly every ganker does, if you have to spend 1.25 billion more to gank freighters that means You have to chose targets with at the very least 1.25 billion more in the hold. That right there reduces the number of viable targets and thus, less ganks are made.
That logic only works if:
1. You actually have to spend 1.25b more (you don't)
2. You've already depleted every target that would be viable (which would be further proof that ganking need balancing)
and
3. That the increase in EHP won't make more players take bigger risks in freighters (dumb people are gonna be dumb).

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

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Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#803 - 2016-02-27 21:09:55 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Jaantrag wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:


Yes...add more people or better ships...but that is no as simple as you make out to be. Adding people means longer form up times. Adding better ships means you need fatter targets. Both mean less ganking.




ganking been the same for a long time .. was about time for a little change ..


less ganing .. i seriously doupt that ...




If you are ganking for profit, and nearly every ganker does, if you have to spend 1.25 billion more to gank freighters that means You have to chose targets with at the very least 1.25 billion more in the hold. That right there reduces the number of viable targets and thus, less ganks are made.



Actually 2.5 billion more given expected drop rates...but yeah, you have to pass up targets you would have ganked before this change.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#804 - 2016-02-27 21:19:17 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
If you are ganking for profit, and nearly every ganker does, if you have to spend 1.25 billion more to gank freighters that means You have to chose targets with at the very least 1.25 billion more in the hold. That right there reduces the number of viable targets and thus, less ganks are made.
That logic only works if:
1. You actually have to spend 1.25b more (you don't)
2. You've already depleted every target that would be viable (which would be further proof that ganking need balancing)
and
3. That the increase in EHP won't make more players take bigger risks in freighters (dumb people are gonna be dumb).


The point is, if you have to have more ships or better ships, which you admit, then you need to have higher value cargoes as well. Now maybe people will go, "Oh yay an EHP buff," and stuff even more valuable stuff in their freighters and everything will be "fine".

Or maybe they don't and ganking goes down.

So, here you are arguing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin and ignoring the underlying dynamic.

If the cost of ganking goes up by X ISK then ganking (for profit) will need to hit freighters with 2X additional in cargo. To be quite explicit:

Let Y be the minimum cargo value to justify a gank.
Let X be the increase in costs of ganking.

The new "minimal" cargo value is Y + 2X.

Since X > 0 it follows that Y + 2X > Y.

Now if we define A as the set of freighters that have cargo of value Y or greater, the set B of freighters with cargo value of Y + 2X is smaller and inside set A (A contains B).

Define m as a measure of sets A and B. m(B) < m(A).

That is, there are less freighters to gank. Thus, less ganking.

The only way to avoid this conclusion is that A and B grow by comparable amounts which is very restrictive hypothesis. It could happen, but it is quite unlikely.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#805 - 2016-02-27 21:55:22 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
The point is, if you have to have more ships or better ships, which you admit, then you need to have higher value cargoes as well. Now maybe people will go, "Oh yay an EHP buff," and stuff even more valuable stuff in their freighters and everything will be "fine".

Or maybe they don't and ganking goes down.
Again though, only assuming that all the people who already fly dumb enough to be gankable after the change are currently being ganked. But maybe ganking will go down maybe ganking will go up, or maybe it will remain the same.

Teckos Pech wrote:
That is, there are less freighters to gank. Thus, less ganking.
Nope. See you were OK up to this point, but saying "thus less ganking" insinuates that every possible freighter carrying Y + 2X is already being ganked. If there are 20 dumb freighters a day carrying at least Y and only 10 of those carrying Y + 2X, but gankers only kill 5 dumb freighters per day, then the same number of ships will be destroyed, there will simply be more from the Y + 2X lot rather than the lower value ones.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#806 - 2016-02-27 22:03:34 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:


Again though, only assuming that all the people who already fly dumb enough to be gankable after the change are currently being ganked. But maybe ganking will go down maybe ganking will go up, or maybe it will remain the same.


There is no maybe about this. To turn a profit you have to target more expensive cargo of which there are fewer targets.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#807 - 2016-02-27 22:06:35 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Again though, only assuming that all the people who already fly dumb enough to be gankable after the change are currently being ganked. But maybe ganking will go down maybe ganking will go up, or maybe it will remain the same.
There is no maybe about this. To turn a profit you have to target more expensive cargo of which there are fewer targets.
Less targets, yes, less ganking, no. Again, you are making the assumption that gankers have already exhausted every single target in that value bracket. There is absolutely no evidence of this and I find that assumption to be highly doubtful. This is very very basic stuff, so you can only be deliberately missing that distinction.

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Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#808 - 2016-02-28 05:08:02 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
The point is, if you have to have more ships or better ships, which you admit, then you need to have higher value cargoes as well. Now maybe people will go, "Oh yay an EHP buff," and stuff even more valuable stuff in their freighters and everything will be "fine".

Or maybe they don't and ganking goes down.
Again though, only assuming that all the people who already fly dumb enough to be gankable after the change are currently being ganked. But maybe ganking will go down maybe ganking will go up, or maybe it will remain the same.

Teckos Pech wrote:
That is, there are less freighters to gank. Thus, less ganking.
Nope. See you were OK up to this point, but saying "thus less ganking" insinuates that every possible freighter carrying Y + 2X is already being ganked. If there are 20 dumb freighters a day carrying at least Y and only 10 of those carrying Y + 2X, but gankers only kill 5 dumb freighters per day, then the same number of ships will be destroyed, there will simply be more from the Y + 2X lot rather than the lower value ones.


That is possible, but neither of us have the data to support our positions.

The conclusion that there will be less "gankable" freighters is inescapable though.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#809 - 2016-02-28 05:17:45 UTC
Lets try this one last time.

The goal of this change is to make the DCU less of a must have mod. After these changes the mod is going to be just as powerful as todays mod with several faction mods providing an even greater effect than today. This means the primary goal of this change has not been met. We also see several side effects because of the planned 33% buff to native structure resists all of which are simply not asked for. Infact the only change that is happening is the ships that either did not fit or could not fit a DCU are getting buffed. Ships such as comet, hecate and other gallente boats that have no need to be buffed are getting one. The marauders are getting a buff they dont need due to bastion. Freighters are getting an enormous buff despite the fact they cant fit the DCU in the first place. This change is going to buff a lot of ships that dont need it while not having any impact on its intended target.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#810 - 2016-02-28 05:27:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
baltec1 wrote:
Lets try this one last time.

The goal of this change is to make the DCU less of a must have mod. After these changes the mod is going to be just as powerful as todays mod with several faction mods providing an even greater effect than today. This means the primary goal of this change has not been met. We also see several side effects because of the planned 33% buff to native structure resists all of which are simply not asked for. Infact the only change that is happening is the ships that either did not fit or could not fit a DCU are getting buffed. Ships such as comet, hecate and other gallente boats that have no need to be buffed are getting one. The marauders are getting a buff they dont need due to bastion. Freighters are getting an enormous buff despite the fact they cant fit the DCU in the first place. This change is going to buff a lot of ships that dont need it while not having any impact on its intended target.



Agreed.

And including the buff to ships that never fit a DC is just dumb and designed to nerf freighter ganking.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
#811 - 2016-02-28 06:37:14 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Lets try this one last time.

The goal of this change is to make the DCU less of a must have mod. After these changes the mod is going to be just as powerful as todays mod with several faction mods providing an even greater effect than today. This means the primary goal of this change has not been met. We also see several side effects because of the planned 33% buff to native structure resists all of which are simply not asked for. Infact the only change that is happening is the ships that either did not fit or could not fit a DCU are getting buffed. Ships such as comet, hecate and other gallente boats that have no need to be buffed are getting one. The marauders are getting a buff they dont need due to bastion. Freighters are getting an enormous buff despite the fact they cant fit the DCU in the first place. This change is going to buff a lot of ships that dont need it while not having any impact on its intended target.


Pretty much nails it. Not forgetting that the passive switch is a odd move; why? All that will do is immunize them from capacitor warfare and make AFK even easier and more appealing.

"Tomahawks?"

"----in' A, right?"

"Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each."

"----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#812 - 2016-02-28 10:31:24 UTC
Sobaan Tali wrote:


Pretty much nails it. Not forgetting that the passive switch is a odd move; why? All that will do is immunize them from capacitor warfare and make AFK even easier and more appealing.


I'm 50/50 on the passive change. On the one hand its handy on the other a mod as powerful as the DCU should really come with some kind of cap warfare weakness and should not benefit afk play.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#813 - 2016-02-28 11:14:27 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
The goal of this change is to make the DCU less of a must have mod.
And it will be, woohoo! You can;t deny that the DC on itself will give less benefit, therefore will be less of a must-have mod. What you are saying is that the change isn't big enough, so once again I say, rather than keep repeating over and over that it's bad, suggest how it should be instead.

Sobaan Tali wrote:
Pretty much nails it. Not forgetting that the passive switch is a odd move; why? All that will do is immunize them from capacitor warfare and make AFK even easier and more appealing.
It's part of CCPs "get rid of non-choice actions" thing. Like with clones, there's no good reason not to turn the module on, so having it active just adds an extra click to everyone's jump procedure.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Captain Campion
Campion Corp.
#814 - 2016-02-28 11:25:38 UTC
'Basic' Damage Control is redundant - just remove it.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#815 - 2016-02-28 12:37:54 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
And it will be, woohoo! You can;t deny that the DC on itself will give less benefit, therefore will be less of a must-have mod. What you are saying is that the change isn't big enough, so once again I say, rather than keep repeating over and over that it's bad, suggest how it should be instead.


There is no change, stop lying. DCU after this change loses none of its power, every ship that fits it today will fit it after this change.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#816 - 2016-02-28 13:16:55 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
It's happening!


We're very interested in your feedback on all these changes. We'll be releasing them to Singularity next week if all goes well, so that you can try these and all the other module changes planned for the March release. Please use this thread for passing along your feedback, and we'll be reading.

Thanks!

Any idea when these might be on Singularity?

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Lugh Crow-Slave
#817 - 2016-02-28 14:16:01 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Lets try this one last time.

The goal of this change is to make the DCU less of a must have mod. After these changes the mod is going to be just as powerful as todays mod with several faction mods providing an even greater effect than today. This means the primary goal of this change has not been met. We also see several side effects because of the planned 33% buff to native structure resists all of which are simply not asked for. Infact the only change that is happening is the ships that either did not fit or could not fit a DCU are getting buffed. Ships such as comet, hecate and other gallente boats that have no need to be buffed are getting one. The marauders are getting a buff they dont need due to bastion. Freighters are getting an enormous buff despite the fact they cant fit the DCU in the first place. This change is going to buff a lot of ships that dont need it while not having any impact on its intended target.


Hecate abs plenty of gallente ships currently fit dcu marauders use dcu I have very few pall fits without one and with options for more armor resists that won't change

The freighter buff ccp has said was intentional and not a side effect

What worries me about freighters getting this is it may make the gal line to strong they already carry the second most and have the best tank for low isk after this change I'm worried the amarr line will no longer have a strong reason to be flown


As for weather freighters need a buff idk mine have really never been caught all that often unless I was just lazy and decided to auto pilot. I also don't fly them all that much as dst generally get the job done for my needs I have also only ever ganked 2 one of which was a JF in low so on that end I also have little experience bit from what ccp had said the bid to them was not unintentionally done
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#818 - 2016-02-28 14:49:59 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
There is no change, stop lying.
There definitely is a change. Check the OP, they put up numbers and everything. What you mean to say is "there's not enough of a change to satisfy me", so again, why don't you make a suggestion rather than just saying "you're wrong CCP".

baltec1 wrote:
DCU after this change loses none of its power, every ship that fits it today will fit it after this change.
I guarantee you are wrong, since I know for a fact I won;t have it on some ships. I know you would then pull out EFT and say "you can get more defense with X" but since defense isn't the only relevant stat, that's meaningless. Some fits you can remove the DC, take less of a defense hit than you used to and add to other attributes.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#819 - 2016-02-28 17:52:59 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
I guarantee you are wrong, since I know for a fact I won;t have it on some ships.


What ships? I went over all the ships you fly and all of them are worse off without the DCU.



Lucas Kell wrote:

I know you would then pull out EFT and say "you can get more defense with X" but since defense isn't the only relevant stat, that's meaningless.


Why do you fit them now?


Lucas Kell wrote:

Some fits you can remove the DC, take less of a defense hit than you used to and add to other attributes.


Name them.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#820 - 2016-02-28 18:16:02 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:


Hecate abs plenty of gallente ships currently fit dcu marauders use dcu I have very few pall fits without one and with options for more armor resists that won't change


In the case of marauders we have the problem of a lot of bonuses. 33% to structure, 30% bonus with bastion and the 40% - 47.50% from the DCU after this change. Same goes with the hecate (all t3d get this effect but because the hecate is gallente it gets a much bigger buff). Gal ships as a whole are getting a bigger buff out of this than the other factions. When looking at the more expensive huls which people will bling with faction mods all this change is going to do is make the DCU even more needed than today because it will be providing even more tank.

There are a few glass cannon setups out there that are getting a good buff that just don't need it. I mean, when was the last time anyone said the insta nado needed a buff? The fragile nature of the ship is what balances it. This whole change just causes so many issues and doesn't even fix the thing it is supposed to fix.