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[March] Damage Control Tiericide

First post First post First post
Author
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#761 - 2016-02-26 19:32:27 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Regarding constant use: how much do I use my freighter and carrier?

Some are used quite often others are not. You have literally no evidence on this. None.
But neither do you, and that's the point. You seem to think it's OK for you to make wild sweeping statements based purely on your own experience but others are not.


I never claimed I did have any evidence Lucas.

Lucas Kell wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
As for the cost of ganking you are talking out of your ass. Sure, if we just totaled up the ISK it looks low, but you are overlooking a major cost in there. Opp...oppor...c'mon you can guess it.
Whatever you say Gevlon. In that case hauling is ISK negative. Pretty much every ISK making activity vastly outstrips the income made from hauling in highsec.

But in all seriousness, just like Gevlon you can;t just go "but opportunity cost!" because that would pretty much limit the game down to being just "incursions online". People choosing to take part in a given activity means they have accepted the value of that activity in isk and/or entertainment, so the fact that they could have chosen to do something else instead doesn't really come into it.


Wow...that was...just amazingly stupid. Opportunity costs is a cost because you have other opportunities, to say those opportunities and the cost of passing them up is to imply opportunity cost is irrelevant.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#762 - 2016-02-26 20:08:46 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
You are always demanding more and more nerfs, your hatred of ganking is well known.
Regardless of what you claim, I push for balance and entertaining mechanics.

baltec1 wrote:
So you have gone from "balance should be done with the poor quality players not at the level of the best" to "balance should be done according to what the top players can do" In a matter of a handful of posts. All of your arguments are nonsensical, lack any evidence to back them up and far too many are outright lies.
Uh, no. Pls train comprehension to 5

baltec1 wrote:
Why are you even here? You have zero interest in the DCU and all of your posts are all to do with defending a nerf to ganking.
Why are you here? Your only aim is to save easy gamplay from a minor nerf. At the end of the day, if you don't like having to see me have an opinion, there's a block button.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#763 - 2016-02-26 20:14:55 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
This change will quite clearly be of greater benefit to the imprudent than to the prudent. That is bad as it is basically rewarding the foolish which is antithetical to the game.
No it won't, it's an equal percentage buff to both, so prudent players should see a bigger increase as they actively strive to increase their defense and benefit more from a % buff.

Teckos Pech wrote:
Not necessarily. Prior to the buff they might have been killed, after the chances of being ganked will go down. Lower probability, same number of trials...fewer ganks.
Nope.

Teckos Pech wrote:
Yes, it increases the costs. So you'll get less ganking. Duh. So even if you are the number 1 target in Uedama if they can't get the numbers...well no gank.
Prove that ganking will go down. You like to leap about and tell people they are making claims with no evidence, then you make one yourself. I imagine if gankers struggle to get the small numbers it would take to gank with the new defense they will trade up to more expensive ships or run at the target twice. Again, it's an increase in cost, not a reduction in risk. Besides, didn't you say you would start ganking because of this change? That'll help with the numbers.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#764 - 2016-02-26 20:21:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucas Kell
Teckos Pech wrote:
[Wow...that was...just amazingly stupid. Opportunity costs is a cost because you have other opportunities, to say those opportunities and the cost of passing them up is to imply opportunity cost is irrelevant.
Opportunity cost is irrelevant. If opportunity cost were relevant there would be only one isk positive mechanic in the entire game.

Ed: Also you completely skipped over the part where if you consider opportunity cost to be relevant, then hauling is always isk negative, therefore in dire need of a buff.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#765 - 2016-02-26 20:51:45 UTC
That would depend on your player skill, aversion to risk, time available and char abilities.

Hauling can be done such that you'd make more than say running missions. It may be riskier however. So its something having more player skill or less aversion to risk allows you to do.

These changes hurt the ability to have that competitive edge over less able or more risk averse players.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#766 - 2016-02-26 21:10:13 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Seems CCP are having issues
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#767 - 2016-02-26 21:22:12 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:

Ed: Also you completely skipped over the part where if you consider opportunity cost to be relevant, then hauling is always isk negative, therefore in dire need of a buff.


RFF makes over 2.4 trillion a year. Guy I know in Black Freight makes minimum of 15 billion a month up to 37 billion.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#768 - 2016-02-26 21:58:51 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:

Ed: Also you completely skipped over the part where if you consider opportunity cost to be relevant, then hauling is always isk negative, therefore in dire need of a buff.
RFF makes over 2.4 trillion a year. Guy I know in Black Freight makes minimum of 15 billion a month up to 37 billion.
Spending how long on how many characters? Also, black frog deals with low/null JF hauling right? Doubt he'd be making that hauling in highsec.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#769 - 2016-02-26 23:28:25 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
[Wow...that was...just amazingly stupid. Opportunity costs is a cost because you have other opportunities, to say those opportunities and the cost of passing them up is to imply opportunity cost is irrelevant.
Opportunity cost is irrelevant. If opportunity cost were relevant there would be only one isk positive mechanic in the entire game.

Ed: Also you completely skipped over the part where if you consider opportunity cost to be relevant, then hauling is always isk negative, therefore in dire need of a buff.


Wow...all I can say is the stupid was strong in that post.

Opportunity cost is always relevant. I know you will continue to disagree, but that's fine. I don't mind, and I know I'll never convince you. But it's nice knowing this post shows everyone how daft your view is on this issue.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#770 - 2016-02-26 23:43:25 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
This change will quite clearly be of greater benefit to the imprudent than to the prudent. That is bad as it is basically rewarding the foolish which is antithetical to the game.
No it won't, it's an equal percentage buff to both, so prudent players should see a bigger increase as they actively strive to increase their defense and benefit more from a % buff.


Okay, if I am a prudent freighter pilot, then I get the benefit, but it does nothing to reduce my chances of getting ganked as they are already low. Thus, little to no benefit.

If I am imprudent--i.e. I use autopilot for example, this buff helps me as it makes it more difficult to gank me. Hence a much bigger benefit.

Lucas Kell wrote:
Prove that ganking will go down. You like to leap about and tell people they are making claims with no evidence, then you make one yourself. I imagine if gankers struggle to get the small numbers it would take to gank with the new defense they will trade up to more expensive ships or run at the target twice. Again, it's an increase in cost, not a reduction in risk. Besides, didn't you say you would start ganking because of this change? That'll help with the numbers.


It is a basic result of economics. Want less of something increase the costs. Raise the cost of ganking, you'll get less of it.

Look at your supposed solution of "more expensive" ships. Unless there are commensurately more freighters with cargo that justifies that cost...less ganking.

As for risk...what? Yet another stupid thing put in a post. Risk is not just based on probabilities or a probability distribution, but also involves the costs and benefits of the activity and/or investment. For example, when insurance companies come up with policies they are looking at the costs of various outcomes.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#771 - 2016-02-27 00:15:07 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Wow...all I can say is the stupid was strong in that post.
Sure, but only because insulting people is your goto move.

Teckos Pech wrote:
Opportunity cost is always relevant. I know you will continue to disagree, but that's fine. I don't mind, and I know I'll never convince you. But it's nice knowing this post shows everyone how daft your view is on this issue.
Of course I'll continue to disagree, because you are wrong. Again though, if opportunity cost is relevant as you claim, then haulers are always isk negative and still needs to be buffed.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#772 - 2016-02-27 00:43:48 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Okay, if I am a prudent freighter pilot, then I get the benefit, but it does nothing to reduce my chances of getting ganked as they are already low. Thus, little to no benefit.

If I am imprudent--i.e. I use autopilot for example, this buff helps me as it makes it more difficult to gank me. Hence a much bigger benefit.
It's makes it more difficult to gank both, even more difficult to gank a prudent pilot with a better buffer to begin with, thus from an EHP standpoint the prudent pilot gains more. However, pilots more often than not avoid being ganked through evasion, so from an ability to be caught standpoint, nothing has changed. Whatever way you swing it, a prudent pilot has gained as much or more than the imprudent pilot. The imprudent pilot will still be the one chosen to be ganked, and nothing suggests they will be ganked any less, gankers will simply have to pay marginally more to do it.

Teckos Pech wrote:
It is a basic result of economics. Want less of something increase the costs. Raise the cost of ganking, you'll get less of it.
But there's no evidence of that link. In fact since ganking used to be basically free due to insurance costs and concord tanking, ganking prices have gone up and yet ganking activity has increased. Consider the burn X events alone which vastly outclass the older events.

Teckos Pech wrote:
Look at your supposed solution of "more expensive" ships. Unless there are commensurately more freighters with cargo that justifies that cost...less ganking.
Ganking even low value freighters is already profitable and still will be with a small increase in cost.

Roll More personal attacks.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#773 - 2016-02-27 01:26:27 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:

Ed: Also you completely skipped over the part where if you consider opportunity cost to be relevant, then hauling is always isk negative, therefore in dire need of a buff.
RFF makes over 2.4 trillion a year. Guy I know in Black Freight makes minimum of 15 billion a month up to 37 billion.
Spending how long on how many characters? Also, black frog deals with low/null JF hauling right? Doubt he'd be making that hauling in highsec.


More than negative thats for damn sure. I'm sorry but what you said is just an outright lie.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#774 - 2016-02-27 01:29:04 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Ganking even low value freighters is already profitable and still will be with a small increase in cost.



Adding the EHP of a charon to the tank of the obelisk is not a small increase in cost.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#775 - 2016-02-27 01:38:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucas Kell
baltec1 wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:

Ed: Also you completely skipped over the part where if you consider opportunity cost to be relevant, then hauling is always isk negative, therefore in dire need of a buff.
RFF makes over 2.4 trillion a year. Guy I know in Black Freight makes minimum of 15 billion a month up to 37 billion.
Spending how long on how many characters? Also, black frog deals with low/null JF hauling right? Doubt he'd be making that hauling in highsec.


More than negative thats for damn sure. I'm sorry but what you said is just an outright lie.
What part exactly is the lie? I claimed that including opportunity cost, highsec hauling (which is what we are talking about here) is isk negative. You then went on to claim - without any evidence I'll add, something you guys explode with rage about - that a guy who jumps JFs into low/null makes isk, and you didn't specify how many characters or how long it takes him to do this, and you've decided not to answer any of it when questioned about it. How that makes me a liar I have no idea.

baltec1 wrote:
Adding the EHP of a charon to the tank of the obelisk is not a small increase in cost.
It is though, isn't it. I mean let's face it, it's a small cost to gank either right now, so ganking both (which I doubt is actually the way it works out) would be a small increase in cost. Once again you're just trying to exaggerate the difference that this will make trying to avoid having the extra effort.

Learn to adapt.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#776 - 2016-02-27 01:53:01 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:


What part exactly is the lie?


The part where you said hauling is negative isk, this isn't hard.

Lucas Kell wrote:
It is though, isn't it.


No it is not. Its is adding 157,000 EHP to the obelisk. That is a staggeringly massive change.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#777 - 2016-02-27 04:44:46 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
What part exactly is the lie? I claimed that including opportunity cost, highsec hauling (which is what we are talking about here) is isk negative. You then went on to claim - without any evidence I'll add, something you guys explode with rage about - that a guy who jumps JFs into low/null makes isk, and you didn't specify how many characters or how long it takes him to do this, and you've decided not to answer any of it when questioned about it. How that makes me a liar I have no idea.


Demonstrate how it is negative ISK. Here is a hint...opportunity cost is subjective. We have moved beyond accounting and into economics.

Opportunity cost is always present so long as there are alternatives.

Lucas Kell wrote:
It is though, isn't it. I mean let's face it, it's a small cost to gank either right now, so ganking both (which I doubt is actually the way it works out) would be a small increase in cost. Once again you're just trying to exaggerate the difference that this will make trying to avoid having the extra effort.

Learn to adapt.


Well we already established you don't know about costs....

Currently an obelisk with reinforced bulkhead IIs in the lows will require a minimum of 34 catalysts to gank. Factoring in that not everyone has good skills and to make double damn sure lets say 40 catalysts. To gank post patch it will likely require 50 catalysts. Yes, in terms of catalysts is not that bad, 80 million ISK.

However, this ignores logistics costs, and the time lost while making sure that there are 50 people in fleet vs. 40. These costs are better classified as opportunity costs. And despite what Lucas believes, they still count. Oh and this is for a 0.5 system. A 0.6 will require even more pilots.


"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#778 - 2016-02-27 04:57:24 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:


Teckos Pech wrote:
Opportunity cost is always relevant. I know you will continue to disagree, but that's fine. I don't mind, and I know I'll never convince you. But it's nice knowing this post shows everyone how daft your view is on this issue.
Of course I'll continue to disagree, because you are wrong. Again though, if opportunity cost is relevant as you claim, then haulers are always isk negative and still needs to be buffed.


Not quiet.

Quote:

An opportunity cost is the cost of an alternative that must be forgone in order to pursue a certain action. Put another way, the benefits you could have received by taking an alternative action.

[snip]

The opportunity cost of going to college is the money you would have earned if you worked instead. On the one hand, you lose four years of salary while getting your degree; on the other hand, you hope to earn more during your career, thanks to your education, to offset the lost wages.


The opportunity cost does not disappear once a choice is made.

More here.

Quote:
When economists refer to the “opportunity cost” of a resource, they mean the value of the next-highest-valued alternative use of that resource. If, for example, you spend time and money going to a movie, you cannot spend that time at home reading a book, and you cannot spend the money on something else. If your next-best alternative to seeing the movie is reading the book, then the opportunity cost of seeing the movie is the money spent plus the pleasure you forgo by not reading the book.

The word “opportunity” in “opportunity cost” is actually redundant. The cost of using something is already the value of the highest-valued alternative use. But as contract lawyers and airplane pilots know, redundancy can be a virtue. In this case, its virtue is to remind us that the cost of using a resource arises from the value of what it could be used for instead.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#779 - 2016-02-27 05:02:59 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Okay, if I am a prudent freighter pilot, then I get the benefit, but it does nothing to reduce my chances of getting ganked as they are already low. Thus, little to no benefit.

If I am imprudent--i.e. I use autopilot for example, this buff helps me as it makes it more difficult to gank me. Hence a much bigger benefit.
It's makes it more difficult to gank both....[snip]


sigh

Jesus Lucas....

Yes, it theoretically makes both harder to gank...but since the prudent pilot is already hard to gank the added "benefit" is of less value.

Here, lets try this although I doubt it will work.

If I get ganked 1 time out of 1,000 trips through Uedama such a buff means little to me. Yes, that 1 time in 1,000 it might be handy, but the other 999 times it means nothing.

If I get ganked 1 time out of 10 trips through Uedama then such a buff means much more because it will come in handy much more.

Thus it is of more benefit to the dumb pilot.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#780 - 2016-02-27 11:41:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucas Kell
baltec1 wrote:
The part where you said hauling is negative isk, this isn't hard.
If we're counting opportunity cost, then highsec hauling is.

baltec1 wrote:
No it is not. Its is adding 157,000 EHP to the obelisk. That is a staggeringly massive change.
No it's not, it's am minor change. It's only a massive change if EHP is the only factor in defense, which it's not. EHP is a minor factor in itself.

Teckos Pech wrote:
Demonstrate how it is negative ISK. Here is a hint...opportunity cost is subjective. We have moved beyond accounting and into economics.

Opportunity cost is always present so long as there are alternatives.
Well according to RFF, their average reward per jump is 890k. A jump with align in a fast freighter takes around 2 minutes on average (based on a trip from Amarr to Jita just completed) so their income rate would be 26.7m per hour. A mission blitzer can make 80-100m/h, thus even in comparison to that, they are isk negative. We could be ridiculous and compare it to trading, for example the other week I spend about 6 hours on a day, most of which was spent playing the playstation and made 60b in 3 days.

The point is that opportunity cost is always going to be irrelevant and should certainly not be used as a basis for balancing mechanics, and if it were probably wouldn't work out the way you hoped.

Teckos Pech wrote:
Lol, I'm not disputing the term exists, I'm disputing your use and specifically your use in a video game. Even in the real world, you wouldn't; say "an opportunity cost of me running by baked bean selling business is that I could instead have become a movie star and made significantly more". In terms of a game it;s no different. Opportunity cost in the way you are performing your chosen playstyle exists, but you can't pull opportunity cost based on having a completely different playstyle you've already chosen not to have.

I'm not going to continue a giant discussion around you being wrong and desperately grasping at straws. You can't count gankers choosing to be gankers as a cost, and if you CCP ever decides to start balancing based on opportunity costs vs other mechanics, I look forward to miners making over 100m per hour with nearly no risk when it's balanced again mission blitzing.

Teckos Pech wrote:
Yes, it theoretically makes both harder to gank...but since the prudent pilot is already hard to gank the added "benefit" is of less value.
That still doesn't mean you didn't get the benefit at an equal or greater rate, and since you've yet to show me evidence that the dumb pilot would be ganked any less, in reality they've gained nothing.

Stop circling though, it's not constructive and it's certainly not going to change CCPs mind about this good change they are bringing out.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.