These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Ships & Modules

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Once again, a call to eliminate the tier system and inject much-needed variety.
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Vaurion Infara
Doomheim
#1 - 2012-01-11 17:44:11 UTC
It's been said before, but there's a good reason for that.

I'm going to attempt to keep this short and sweet, as I feel the issue is understood by most of the people who take the time to think about it. Tiers are pointless. They add an arbitrary gimp to lower tier ships, and due to the relative similarity in prices across tech 1 ship classes, the goal of making lower tiered ships attractive in a monetary sense fails completely. This results in what we have now.

Each tech 1 ship class is dominated by 2-4 ships, with the remainder of ships being almost universally left by the wayside. This is especially noticeable in the cruiser class, where a group of 24 ships is dominated by 3-4 individuals. There is currently no incentive to fly a lower tiered ship, because although each ship was arguably designed to fill a specific role, the tier system guarantees that they will be inferior to the higher tiered ships.

Some exceptions exist, of course, and some lower tier ships are very good. But this is not because of tiers. I'm not calling for every ship to have identical stats, and in some places very few if any adjustments need to be made. But this issue definitely needs attention. I can't think of anything that would enhance Eve more than making the 20+ useless ships in Eve worth flying.

Most of the things I've said here have previously been brought up in this thread https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=24582 , so do not think this is an original or groundbreaking idea. :)

this is it
vorneus
Hub2
#2 - 2012-01-11 18:13:43 UTC  |  Edited by: vorneus
Vaurion Infara wrote:
It's been said before, but there's a good reason for that.

I'm going to attempt to keep this short and sweet, as I feel the issue is understood by most of the people who take the time to think about it. Tiers are pointless. They add an arbitrary gimp to lower tier ships, and due to the relative similarity in prices across tech 1 ship classes, the goal of making lower tiered ships attractive in a monetary sense fails completely. This results in what we have now.

Each tech 1 ship class is dominated by 2-4 ships, with the remainder of ships being almost universally left by the wayside. This is especially noticeable in the cruiser class, where a group of 24 ships is dominated by 3-4 individuals. There is currently no incentive to fly a lower tiered ship, because although each ship was arguably designed to fill a specific role, the tier system guarantees that they will be inferior to the higher tiered ships.

Some exceptions exist, of course, and some lower tier ships are very good. But this is not because of tiers. I'm not calling for every ship to have identical stats, and in some places very few if any adjustments need to be made. But this issue definitely needs attention. I can't think of anything that would enhance Eve more than making the 20+ useless ships in Eve worth flying.

Most of the things I've said here have previously been brought up in this thread https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=24582 , so do not think this is an original or groundbreaking idea. :)


I don't mean to be harsh by saying this, but the issue has been discussed to death (as you have made clear in your post) and you're only reiterating things that have already been said (something you've also made clear in your post).

I'm curious; given that you finish by linking to another thread and saying that nothing in your own thread is original or groundbreaking; why is this thread even here? To precipitate the exact same discussion all over again?

TL;DR - the issue has been widely discussed and anyone who frequents the forums (CCP staff included) will be aware of it, and largely aware of all the discussions surrounding it, so the creation of a new thread to make just that point is, quite frankly, pointless.

-Ed

This one time, I like, totally did some stuff.
V'oba
Omnivores of Mediocrity
Omnivores
#3 - 2012-01-11 18:22:29 UTC
As a solution to the problem of staggered access to the ships based on the player's cruiser skill level, I would suggest specializing the ships in a way that caters to the skills generally had by newer players (but not necessarily making those first-accessed ships any less of an appealing option later on).

What I mean is to have the the mining/ logis - ewar - and speed/ kiting cruisers available at skill level 1, the tank cruisers at skill level 2, and the dps cruisers at skill level 3.

The "tiers" in this sense apply only to the role the ship takes, but not necessarily its continued usefulness.

For an amarr example - skill 1: augoror, arbitrator / Skill 2: Maller / Skill 3: Omen

And of course this would all be along with a variety of balance tweaks to all the cruisers across the board to make sure they perform appropriately well in their intended role.
Biced
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#4 - 2012-01-11 19:12:54 UTC
2nd one in a week?
what the hell is wrong with you?
there is no ******* way in hell any of you will be flying them even if they do get a boost LOL.

V'oba wrote:
As a solution to the problem of staggered access to the ships based on the player's cruiser skill level, I would suggest specializing the ships in a way that caters to the skills generally had by newer players (but not necessarily making those first-accessed ships any less of an appealing option later on).

What I mean is to have the the mining/ logis - ewar - and speed/ kiting cruisers available at skill level 1, the tank cruisers at skill level 2, and the dps cruisers at skill level 3.

The "tiers" in this sense apply only to the role the ship takes, but not necessarily its continued usefulness.

For an amarr example - skill 1: augoror, arbitrator / Skill 2: Maller / Skill 3: Omen

And of course this would all be along with a variety of balance tweaks to all the cruisers across the board to make sure they perform appropriately well in their intended role.


so maller goes down a tier omen goes up a tier and there are new roles to t1 cruisers called tanking and kiting interesting.
so just throw everything we have right now to the trash can and redo all the t1 cruisers in game.

Vaurion Infara
Doomheim
#5 - 2012-01-11 19:30:32 UTC
vorneus wrote:
Vaurion Infara wrote:
It's been said before, but there's a good reason for that.

I'm going to attempt to keep this short and sweet, as I feel the issue is understood by most of the people who take the time to think about it. Tiers are pointless. They add an arbitrary gimp to lower tier ships, and due to the relative similarity in prices across tech 1 ship classes, the goal of making lower tiered ships attractive in a monetary sense fails completely. This results in what we have now.

Each tech 1 ship class is dominated by 2-4 ships, with the remainder of ships being almost universally left by the wayside. This is especially noticeable in the cruiser class, where a group of 24 ships is dominated by 3-4 individuals. There is currently no incentive to fly a lower tiered ship, because although each ship was arguably designed to fill a specific role, the tier system guarantees that they will be inferior to the higher tiered ships.

Some exceptions exist, of course, and some lower tier ships are very good. But this is not because of tiers. I'm not calling for every ship to have identical stats, and in some places very few if any adjustments need to be made. But this issue definitely needs attention. I can't think of anything that would enhance Eve more than making the 20+ useless ships in Eve worth flying.

Most of the things I've said here have previously been brought up in this thread https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=24582 , so do not think this is an original or groundbreaking idea. :)


I don't mean to be harsh by saying this, but the issue has been discussed to death (as you have made clear in your post) and you're only reiterating things that have already been said (something you've also made clear in your post).

I'm curious; given that you finish by linking to another thread and saying that nothing in your own thread is original or groundbreaking; why is this thread even here? To precipitate the exact same discussion all over again?

TL;DR - the issue has been widely discussed and anyone who frequents the forums (CCP staff included) will be aware of it, and largely aware of all the discussions surrounding it, so the creation of a new thread to make just that point is, quite frankly, pointless.

-Ed



Pretty simple, really. It's just exposure, propagating the idea. And hopefully, condensing the thousands of words on the subject into the base idea. Also, just because the idea isn't new doesn't mean there isn't more to be said about it.

this is it
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
#6 - 2012-01-11 19:37:00 UTC
You might call it exposure; others might call it spam.

Perfection is a dish best served like wasabi .

Bumble's Space Log
V'oba
Omnivores of Mediocrity
Omnivores
#7 - 2012-01-11 19:48:05 UTC
Biced wrote:
2nd one in a week?
what the hell is wrong with you?
there is no ******* way in hell any of you will be flying them even if they do get a boost LOL.

V'oba wrote:
As a solution to the problem of staggered access to the ships based on the player's cruiser skill level, I would suggest specializing the ships in a way that caters to the skills generally had by newer players (but not necessarily making those first-accessed ships any less of an appealing option later on).

What I mean is to have the the mining/ logis - ewar - and speed/ kiting cruisers available at skill level 1, the tank cruisers at skill level 2, and the dps cruisers at skill level 3.

The "tiers" in this sense apply only to the role the ship takes, but not necessarily its continued usefulness.

For an amarr example - skill 1: augoror, arbitrator / Skill 2: Maller / Skill 3: Omen

And of course this would all be along with a variety of balance tweaks to all the cruisers across the board to make sure they perform appropriately well in their intended role.


so maller goes down a tier omen goes up a tier and there are new roles to t1 cruisers called tanking and kiting interesting.
so just throw everything we have right now to the trash can and redo all the t1 cruisers in game.



You seem to be missing the point.

The tiers in this context are only an indication of cruiser skill level and the general use of the ship, not arbitrary cruiser effectiveness rating. So it wouldn't matter if something went 'up' or 'down' a tier because functionally it would still be the same.

The roles i stated already apply to the ships i listed, so no change there. My suggestions were only to make them better at their existing roles.