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Reduce the fear of sudden capital death
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Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2016-02-24 20:12:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Reduce the fear of sudden capital death by reducing the speed at which capitals can kill each other.



There are several instant-activation effects that capital ships can use to demolish targets quickly. This leads to hotdrops and many smaller groups being afraid to undock their capitals for the very reasonable fear they will lose them almost immediately. If these effects took more time to activate, there would be much more warning of a hotdrop, and much more time to arrange for a counter-action. Hotdrops would require a lot more set-up to execute. The major hotdropping alliances would no longer be able to hotdrop indiscriminately but rather would need to seek out complacent targets. This would give much more room for smaller groups to put time and planning into ensuring capital safety, and would make the use of capital ships a much more viable tactic for these groups.



all suggested times are up for debate

Make jump drives take time to activate. They should have to have the cyno up to begin jumping, and they should have to run through a full cycle, perhaps 30 seconds, before jumping to the cyno beacon. This gives fleets time to see the cyno go up and react.

Add a targeting delay after jumping, much like the targeting delay after decloaking, perhaps the same amount of time, or maybe it could vary for different capital ships. This will give the defending fleet a brief moment to see what they're up against before they start taking fire, and the defenders can be the ones to shoot first.

Add a brief firing delay after targeting for all capital ships--perhaps 5 seconds--so they can't primary subcaps sooner than subcap logi can respond. It should be too short a delay for capital logi to respond.

Make doomsday weapons spool up for, say, 15 seconds with a large visual effect before they fire. The defending fleet should be able to pass some orders around before the doomsday goes off.
they already do

Give fighters a scan resolution, make them take a bit of time to lock smaller targets even after the launching carrier has locked the target.
they already do

Make fighter bombers/heavy fighters take time to launch from the supercarrier.




All of these are short timers, not enough to reposition a fleet or refit ships, but time for FCs to pass quick orders, for logi to respond, maybe even time enough for a nimble fleet to warp out, or for a powerful fleet to shut down the attack.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#2 - 2016-02-24 20:40:36 UTC
Really? How about we wait and see what changes they already have planned, and then suggest changes? CCP seriously isn't going to make any changes to Capitols until they finish the current changes they already have planned.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2016-02-24 21:00:49 UTC
Estella Osoka wrote:
Really? How about we wait and see what changes they already have planned,

They've already told us what they have planned. It is up to us to help them tweak the changes before they release the final product. Making changes later is more difficult.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Iria Ahrens
Space Perverts and Forum Pirates
#4 - 2016-02-24 21:05:41 UTC
Best way to reduce the fear of sudden capital death is a good reim policy.

My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#5 - 2016-02-24 21:22:23 UTC
DDs already spool up for more than 15 seconds. Fighters, just like any other drone, already have lock times.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Xe'Cara'eos
A Big Enough Lever
#6 - 2016-02-24 21:52:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Xe'Cara'eos
Interesting thoughts as usual, Reaver.
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
[stuff]
Make jump drives take time to activate. They should have to have the cyno up to begin jumping, and they should have to run through a full cycle, perhaps 30 seconds, before jumping to the cyno beacon. This gives fleets time to see the cyno go up and react.

Have you considered fleets insta-blapping any and all cyno ships? This could have some interesting effects like fleet fight reinforcements jumping to an off-grid location then having to warp in. Will also make counter dropping difficult, but that might be by design?

Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Add a targeting delay after jumping, much like the targeting delay after decloaking, perhaps the same amount of time, or maybe it could vary for different capital ships. This will give the defending fleet a brief moment to see what they're up against before they start taking fire, and the defenders can be the ones to shoot first.

I had a thought about this then lost it, sorry... I might remember it eventually....

Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Add a brief firing delay after targeting for all capital ships--perhaps 5 seconds--so they can't primary subcaps sooner than subcap logi can respond. It should be too short a delay for capital logi to respond.

I suppose you could argue that this like giving the guns a chance to line up on the target, but then should this not be applied to ALL ships, not just caps?

Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Make doomsday weapons spool up for, say, 15 seconds with a large visual effect before they fire. The defending fleet should be able to pass some orders around before the doomsday goes off.

I thought they already did this (though I'm not sure of how long for), or were going to change to do this? presumably you want to increase the pre-firing warning?

Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Give fighters a scan resolution, make them take a bit of time to lock smaller targets even after the launching carrier has locked the target.
[stuff]

again - I thought they did, but perhaps you want to bump that up?

For posting an idea into F&I: come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it..... If your idea can be abused, it [u]WILL[/u] be.
Xe'Cara'eos
A Big Enough Lever
#7 - 2016-02-24 21:54:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Xe'Cara'eos
Iria Ahrens wrote:
Best way to reduce the fear of sudden capital death is a good reim policy.

I think you're missing the basic point - let me requote some of the original post to you in a moment..... ahah - here it is....
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
There are several instant-activation effects that capital ships can use to demolish targets quickly. This leads to hotdrops and many smaller groups being afraid to undock their capitals for the very reasonable fear they will lose them almost immediately. [stuff]

I'm pretty sure it's clear here that Reaver's talking about groups who cannot afford to lose capitals week after week like large nullsec alliances, who maybe only have a single capital and probably can't afford much (if any) reimbursment program.....
So my question becomes this - are you advocating that CCP automatically re-imburses capital deaths or did you not fully read the original post/missed that bit?

Sorry for the double post, but for some reason you're not allowed to quote more than 5 times per post.... and I wanted to answer each of Reaver's suggestions properly.....

EDIT: if that last sentence comes across as inflammatory, I apologise. It isn't meant as such, but I can't find the right words (feel free to suggest them!)

For posting an idea into F&I: come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it..... If your idea can be abused, it [u]WILL[/u] be.
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#8 - 2016-02-25 00:01:40 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
[stuff]
Make jump drives take time to activate. They should have to have the cyno up to begin jumping, and they should have to run through a full cycle, perhaps 30 seconds, before jumping to the cyno beacon. This gives fleets time to see the cyno go up and react.


Shooting the cyno become a no brainer and too easy. There is a limit to how much damage a strained ship can take before his reinforcement arrive. If it takes a while for the jump to happen, we will be too late all the time.


Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Add a targeting delay after jumping, much like the targeting delay after decloaking, perhaps the same amount of time, or maybe it could vary for different capital ships. This will give the defending fleet a brief moment to see what they're up against before they start taking fire, and the defenders can be the ones to shoot first.


The scan res on caps is already low enough to make this a reality anyway. If the defender want to take the first shots, they need to get on with the fight and start targeting.

Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Add a brief firing delay after targeting for all capital ships--perhaps 5 seconds--so they can't primary subcaps sooner than subcap logi can respond. It should be too short a delay for capital logi to respond.


Sub-cap logi can already target faster than a cap ever will unless it's loaded to the brim with SeBo anyway.

Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Make doomsday weapons spool up for, say, 15 seconds with a large visual effect before they fire. The defending fleet should be able to pass some orders around before the doomsday goes off.


There is already one IIRC.

Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Give fighters a scan resolution, make them take a bit of time to lock smaller targets even after the launching carrier has locked the target.
[stuff]


They have one already. It's a part of what was nerfed in the fist round against skynet carriers/supers.
Iain Cariaba
#9 - 2016-02-25 00:17:14 UTC
Simple solutions are usually the easiest. If you're afraid of losing a capital ship, simply don't fly them. You cannot lose what you never undock.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2016-02-25 00:34:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Xe'Cara'eos wrote:
I thought they already did this (though I'm not sure of how long for), or were going to change to do this? presumably you want to increase the pre-firing warning?

again - I thought they did, but perhaps you want to bump that up?

No, I didn't know that they did have that. I'll remove them from the OP then.




Frostys Virpio wrote:
Shooting the cyno become a no brainer and too easy. There is a limit to how much damage a strained ship can take before his reinforcement arrive. If it takes a while for the jump to happen, we will be too late all the time.

There are a multitude of player-driven solutions to that problem. It'll be nice for the hotdroppers to need at least a little bit of preparation for once. EVE is supposed to be skill first, riches second.


I want to add an idea to this: perhaps multiple cynoes within a short distance of each other would merge into one cyno, allowing it to stay up as long as any one of the cynoing ships is still alive. That would bring in the use of cyno ship redundancy as one more solution to cyno ship loss.


Frostys Virpio wrote:
The scan res on caps is already low enough to make this a reality anyway. If the defender want to take the first shots, they need to get on with the fight and start targeting.

Caps target other caps quite fast. With sensor boosts and target painters, they can target subcaps pretty fast. Put 2 T2 sebos on a Revelation and 2 T2 painters from a Hyena against a Cerberus (before adding shield mods) and the Revelation will lock the Cerberus in 5.8 seconds with max skills.


Frostys Virpio wrote:
Sub-cap logi can already target faster than a cap ever will unless it's loaded to the brim with SeBo anyway.

You don't know you're being primaried by the cap fleet until you get yellow-boxed. There needs to be response time after you get yellow-boxed.

Xe'Cara'eos: I would absolutely not suggest adding this effect to subcaps. Many fleets rely on rapid target swapping, and this would be a huge nerf to that. It would work out as a buff to alpha fleets because of the way it gives logi more time to respond.

I'm merely suggesting subcap logi should get advance warning of capital fire. Capital Logi should be too slow to take good advantage of the advance warning, and subcaps should give no warning. If they did give warning, it should be really short, like 1 second.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."