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Flogging a dead horse..
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Vince Prince
Fart In A Spacesuit
Crimson Inquisicion
#1 - 2016-02-22 13:52:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Vince Prince
I just noticed I got my usual monthly mail from CCP stating account renewal success..

In light of this and in my opinion CCP's poor decision to add skill extractors to the game, I have to ask myself why am I paying for this game.

I have always endeavored to keep my subs running so I could keep those skills training for when the time comes, as often it douse I get lured back into the universe and the community I love the most in the gaming world.

I barely log on these days due to a number of reasons, Mainly Eve has lost something, I cant quite put my finger on it but it's just not the game i once Loved.

I no longer feel that connection with the Dev's like i did before.
Back in the day we the players really felt a connection that made us feel part of the process and a lot of us helped with ideas and testing.

That has all but gone now. CCP no longer listen to the larger part of the community I feel.
Let alone be bothered to post on there own forums. You need to go to Reddit for anything close to that.

The currant situation with the camera proves that point. "lets just stick it in F*#k the community they can just get used to it"

The constant messing with the overview and a number of other things makes me feel like we now have a game being developed by people who don't even play it. You need only watch back some o7 shows you will see that this point it's true. Seriously watch some of those Dev's try to fly a ship it's painful to watch What?

Fozzie Sov! OMG i'll not even flog that horse as a large number of you already have.

Hilmar, CCP Please for the love of Eve and it's future. Make it mandatory for your Dev's to play this game.
Engage with your community on your own forums like you used to.

Make the new players of eve feel part of the process like you did for me.

Since 03 i have lived and breathed Eve, no other game came near to it and I never thought it would.
Sadly as things stand and with skill extractors i don't even need to keep subbed do I.

When and if Eve calls me back all i need do is re-sub and bye those skills for my char.
As things stand at the moment this bitter vet shall be deleting his subscriptions.

I am sad at this because I do love Eve and it's community, I would rather be supporting CCP to keep this game alive.
tiberiusric
Comply Or Die
Pandemic Horde
#2 - 2016-02-22 13:58:26 UTC
Vince Prince wrote:
I just noticed I got my usual monthly mail from CCP stating account renewal success..

In light of this and in my opinion CCP's poor decision to add skill extractors to the game, I have to ask myself why am I paying for this game.

I have always endeavored to keep my subs running so I could keep those skills training for when the time comes, as often it douse I get lured back into the universe and the community I love the most in the gaming world.

I barely log on these days due to a number of reasons, Mainly Eve has lost something, I cant quite put my finger on it but it's just not the game i once Loved.

I no longer feel that connection with the Dev's like i did before.
Back in the day we the players really felt a connection that made us feel part of the process and a lot of us helped with ideas and testing.

That has all but gone now. CCP no longer listen to the larger part of the community I feel.
Let alone be bothered to post on there own forums. You need to go to Reddit for anything close to that.

The currant situation with the camera proves that point. "lets just stick it in F*#k the community they can just get used to it"

The constant messing with the overview and a number of other things makes me feel like we now have a game being developed by people who don't even play it. You need only watch back some o7 shows you will see that this point it's true. Seriously watch some of those Dev's try to fly a ship it's painful to watch What?

Fozzie Sov! OMG i'll not even flog that horse as a large number of you already have.

Hilmar, CCP Please for the love of Eve and it's future. Make it mandatory for your Dev's to play this game.
Engage with your community on your own forums like you used to.

Make the new players of eve feel part of the process like you did for me.

Since 03 i have lived and breathed Eve, no other game came near to it and I never thought it would.
Sadly as things stand and with skill extractors i don't even need to keep subbed do I.

When and if Eve calls me back all i need do is re-sub and bye those skills for my char.
As things stand at the moment this bitter vet shall be deleting his subscriptions.

I am sad at this because I do love Eve and it's community, I would rather be supporting CCP to keep this game alive.


Please Hilmar sell the company to someone who cares. Thats all that needs to be said

All my views are my own - never be afraid to post with your main, unless you're going to post some dumb shit
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
#3 - 2016-02-22 14:00:25 UTC
First they came for the Drone Region Nullbears,
and I did not speak out because I was not a Drone Region Nullbear.

Then they came for the Nano Cancer Pilots,
and I did not speak out because I was not a Nano Cancer Pilot.

Then they came me for me,
and there was no one to speak out for me because I had frittered away all of my SP.

Perfection is a dish best served like wasabi .

Bumble's Space Log
Josef Djugashvilis
#4 - 2016-02-22 14:16:35 UTC
Dear op, which is worse, that the devs do play the game and introduce half-finished features like the new camera system, or devs do not play the game and introduce half-finished features like the new camera system?

This is not a signature.
Vince Prince
Fart In A Spacesuit
Crimson Inquisicion
#5 - 2016-02-22 14:30:39 UTC
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
Dear op, which is worse, that the devs do play the game and introduce half-finished features like the new camera system, or devs do not play the game and introduce half-finished features like the new camera system?


That is a bit of a conundrum isn't it.

One would expect that if the Dev's did play the game, half finished features would not make it into the live game.
But instead stay on the test server until it worked as intended.

The test server dose not draw enough players willing to test these features to get a real answer to that I fear.

To those Dev's who don't play eve I have to ask myself why?

Why not play this amazing game and I mean rely play it. Not play with god powers but as we the players do.

Oh hang on I forgot. We can all now play with god powers all we need do is max those skills with injectors..

But seriously How can you understand the game your creating if you don't play it like the player-base douse?
Ibutho Inkosi
Doomheim
#6 - 2016-02-22 14:31:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Ibutho Inkosi
What you detect, kimosabe, is what has occurred across the spectrum of the MMO world.

a.) Reduce payroll by replacing high-priced computer techs with bargain basement computer science grads.

b.) Convert game to Micro-Transaction content, rather than the sort of content those high-priced techs you just let go
would nornally create.

c.) Anticipate a windfall of criticism by your veteran players, so insulate yourselves from the playerbase.

d.) Control what is discussed in any community service (even though you have to pay for the privilege
to use said venues.)

Voila! The modern MMO business model! (TL;DR territory) Everyone's adopted this in one form or another since three years ago. This was brought about, in large part, due to a paper/report that turned up in Japan (or was it Korea...?) that crunched profitability numbers. The numbers for this model looked lucrative, so the moves were made.

You will find also most MMOs have "moved to new servers". (Look in your Programs/Services [control panel] and see if there's a program such as Akamai NetSessions hiding in there. [There are others.] That is a third-party operation that contracts with gaming companies to hold their game...like a cloud thingy.)

Is any game immune? I don't think so. What does this say about MMOs in general? What it says is, the Golden Age of MMOs is over, kimosabe. The door was slammed on it three years ago. Is there some game in the offing to save "us" from this disaster? People keep pointing to Star Citizen. However, that game's development has been "troubled"
(to say the least.)

What's a gamer to do??? Well. I'm sticking with EVE. Part of that may be morbid curiosity. I like to think they're trying to be inventive in this environment, and I'm not going to tell someone how to paint their picture. It is what it is. AND, with EVE, the nature of this beast is; every move it makes is of historic significance. It interests me, but not as a gamer. Do I trust that they'll survive a nosedive and come up with something as fabulous as this game once was? Possibly.

Otherwise, LOTRO still exists in the form it's contorted itself into. So does WOW, ESO, EQ even exists in some form. FFXIV ... there's still a ton of games still alive and kicking. Thing is, you have to learn to live with the new reality. The only thing that bugs me about it is all the players who should realize this has happened who keep complaining about it.

To me, ultimately, the game is who you're playing with more than anything else. That is especially true here. Not surprisingly here the issue is: How do we keep veteran players? How do we retain new players?

Thank-you for reading this if you got this far. For those who didn't: Your mother wears combat boots!

As long as the tale of the hunt is told by the hunter, and not the lion, it will favor the hunter.
Vince Prince
Fart In A Spacesuit
Crimson Inquisicion
#7 - 2016-02-22 14:45:54 UTC

[quote=a.) Reduce payroll by replacing high-priced computer techs with bargain basement computer science grads.

b.) Convert game to Micro-Transaction content, rather than the sort of content those high-priced techs you just let go
would nornally create.

c.) Anticipate a windfall of criticism by your veteran players, so insulate yourselves from the playerbase.

d.) Control what is discussed in any community service (even though you have to pay for the privilege
to use said venues.)]

That makes me sad but you may have a point i shall research this.


[quote=The only thing that bugs me about it is all the players who should realize this has happened who keep complaining about it.]

In complaining about it can we not help to change this currant paradigm?
tiberiusric
Comply Or Die
Pandemic Horde
#8 - 2016-02-22 15:09:42 UTC  |  Edited by: tiberiusric
Vince Prince wrote:
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
Dear op, which is worse, that the devs do play the game and introduce half-finished features like the new camera system, or devs do not play the game and introduce half-finished features like the new camera system?


That is a bit of a conundrum isn't it.

One would expect that if the Dev's did play the game, half finished features would not make it into the live game.
But instead stay on the test server until it worked as intended.

The test server dose not draw enough players willing to test these features to get a real answer to that I fear.

To those Dev's who don't play eve I have to ask myself why?

Why not play this amazing game and I mean rely play it. Not play with god powers but as we the players do.

Oh hang on I forgot. We can all now play with god powers all we need do is max those skills with injectors..

But seriously How can you understand the game your creating if you don't play it like the player-base douse?


Its not down to the devs, its down to leadership - nothing more. I bet if you ask the devs they are as probably pissed off as you are, but sadly they get the brunt of the criticism. When have you ever met a dev that doesnt want to cross every T and dot every I. I know i manage 80 of them.

All my views are my own - never be afraid to post with your main, unless you're going to post some dumb shit
Vince Prince
Fart In A Spacesuit
Crimson Inquisicion
#9 - 2016-02-22 15:16:30 UTC
tiberiusric wrote:
Vince Prince wrote:
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
Dear op, which is worse, that the devs do play the game and introduce half-finished features like the new camera system, or devs do not play the game and introduce half-finished features like the new camera system?


That is a bit of a conundrum isn't it.

One would expect that if the Dev's did play the game, half finished features would not make it into the live game.
But instead stay on the test server until it worked as intended.

The test server dose not draw enough players willing to test these features to get a real answer to that I fear.

To those Dev's who don't play eve I have to ask myself why?

Why not play this amazing game and I mean rely play it. Not play with god powers but as we the players do.

Oh hang on I forgot. We can all now play with god powers all we need do is max those skills with injectors..

But seriously How can you understand the game your creating if you don't play it like the player-base douse?


Its not down to the Devs, its down to leadership - nothing more. I bet if you ask the devs they are as probably pissed off as you are, but sadly they get the brunt of the criticism. When have you ever met a dev that doesnt want to cross every T and dot every I. I know i manage 80 of them.


If what you say is true then i'll gladly point this criticism in the direction of the leadership and Herby apologies to and offense caused to those Dev's.

But I will stand by what I said with regards to playing the Game you create can only help to improve the situation.
Falin Whalen
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2016-02-22 15:22:35 UTC
tiberiusric wrote:


Its not down to the devs, its down to leadership - nothing more. I bet if you ask the devs they are as probably pissed off as you are, but sadly they get the brunt of the criticism. When have you ever met a dev that doesnt want to cross every T and dot every I. I know i manage 80 of them.

It needs more "PSSSSSH!"

"it's only because of their stupidity that they're able to be so sure of themselves." The Trial - Franz Kafka 
Vince Prince
Fart In A Spacesuit
Crimson Inquisicion
#11 - 2016-02-22 16:53:39 UTC
Vince Prince wrote:
tiberiusric wrote:
Vince Prince wrote:
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
Dear op, which is worse, that the devs do play the game and introduce half-finished features like the new camera system, or devs do not play the game and introduce half-finished features like the new camera system?


That is a bit of a conundrum isn't it.

One would expect that if the Dev's did play the game, half finished features would not make it into the live game.
But instead stay on the test server until it worked as intended.

The test server dose not draw enough players willing to test these features to get a real answer to that I fear.

To those Dev's who don't play eve I have to ask myself why?

Why not play this amazing game and I mean rely play it. Not play with god powers but as we the players do.

Oh hang on I forgot. We can all now play with god powers all we need do is max those skills with injectors..

But seriously How can you understand the game your creating if you don't play it like the player-base douse?


Its not down to the Devs, its down to leadership - nothing more. I bet if you ask the devs they are as probably pissed off as you are, but sadly they get the brunt of the criticism. When have you ever met a dev that doesnt want to cross every T and dot every I. I know i manage 80 of them.


If what you say is true then i'll gladly point this criticism in the direction of the leadership and Herby apologies to and offense caused to those Dev's.

But I will stand by what I said with regards to playing the Game you create can only help to improve the situation.


This puts me in mind of a story Hilmar once told at Fanfest about a corp he joined.
It is best best told by Hilmar himself https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXYu5oUc0p4 Jump to 16:37 for Hilmar's Story.

If you haven't seen it the whole keynote it is worth a watch, Do make the time if you can.

Thats what I truly think Eve is lacking in part due to the fact Hilmar himself has lost heart somewhere along the line. As have the leadership. Have they forgotten what they where trying to create or do they feel they have reached there goal i wonder?
Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
#12 - 2016-02-22 17:20:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Mara Pahrdi
Vince Prince wrote:
Let alone be bothered to post on there own forums. You need to go to Reddit for anything close to that.

I don't go to reddit. The default ui is awful. Not sure if it can be changed to something pleasant.

And not posting on ones own forums would be a stupid decision indeed..

Remove standings and insurance.
Vince Prince
Fart In A Spacesuit
Crimson Inquisicion
#13 - 2016-02-22 18:28:09 UTC
Mara Pahrdi wrote:
Vince Prince wrote:
Let alone be bothered to post on there own forums. You need to go to Reddit for anything close to that.

I don't go to reddit. The default ui is awful. Not sure if it can be changed to something pleasant.

And not posting on ones own forums would be a stupid decision indeed..


I believe if CCP make just this one small change it would go a long way to help the player-base understand some of CCP'S decisions.

Show us how you feel CCP. Help us see your vision, explain why you truly feel you need to follow the path you have chosen.

Lets get debating all together. Don't just rely on a few people elected to speak for us. I assure you they don't speak for us all. Think on that because that statement is so obviously true.

Yes we the player-base can be impulsive and quick to judge, I wonder if we ourself the players are to blame for some of these decisions you have made to shield CCP from some of that damage we have caused our-selfs.

I remember the rage from the player-base when we discovered a CCP employee that played eve had abused his position. This obviously led to you not playing your own game anymore. Huge Mistake!

Was that reaction a cause of this?

The Jita incident for instance! shooting the monument. A large number of people think that is what changed CCP's Path.
Thats true to a point. but the real damage was done by the people who decided not to pay for the game anymore. That is what got CCP's attention.

How can we rectify this help us help you. I love Eve I want Eve to last FOREVER!
I want to support CCP in doing this.

But i'm sad to say can not justify doing that when our words fall on deaf ears.
Ibutho Inkosi
Doomheim
#14 - 2016-02-22 19:19:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Ibutho Inkosi
It does really say a lot to find CCP employees, people who are supposed to be interested, posting in Reddit...lending that third party credibility robbed from their own establishment. If the employees aren't loyal, you can bet the customers won't be. Business thrives on repeat business, not the one-time buyer in the thrill of a moment.

One thing to consider is...a game and a business aren't the same things. Game designers rarely understand business. And, very few businessmen have a clue how computers work, much less games. I think all the favorite games hit this eventuality when they grew to a certain size. Pros came in and told them how to run a business properly.

Thing is...computer games and their communities by nature are anathema to businessmen and their ilk. Business won in the clash. Then, what hasn't been bought and sold - cheapened commercially by now...Santa Claus, perhaps?

As long as the tale of the hunt is told by the hunter, and not the lion, it will favor the hunter.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#15 - 2016-02-22 19:30:37 UTC
Nice rant/quit thread.
Can I have your stuff?

Because seriously, they are not doing what you claim. They have not done 'constant changes to the overview'. They did one icon change to make it clearer what you were looking at. It was a little confusing for a while for those of us used to the old icons but now there is more information available for the same overhead.

The new camera was a requirement with them expanding the grid and the new fighter mechanic and has some things which are vastly improved over the old, like the look at distance no longer being locked at 100km from you. Yes there are features some of us use which it doesn't have, but that doesn't make it 'half finished' or anything, just that somewhere someone made a design decision to not include those initially, even if they now revisit that decision.
I'd also rather a half finished camera now than have to try and get used to all the new features and the new camera at the same time, this way we get some time to get used to the camera before the features get added.

And frankly, there is no way the Devs can play the game as much as we can, and to avoid blatant favouritism the Devs need to not be very invested in the game. The last thing you want is factionalised Devs making changes to benefit themselves or their in game alliance.
Vince Prince
Fart In A Spacesuit
Crimson Inquisicion
#16 - 2016-02-22 20:09:38 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Nice rant/quit thread.
Can I have your stuff?

Because seriously, they are not doing what you claim. They have not done 'constant changes to the overview'. They did one icon change to make it clearer what you were looking at. It was a little confusing for a while for those of us used to the old icons but now there is more information available for the same overhead.

The new camera was a requirement with them expanding the grid and the new fighter mechanic and has some things which are vastly improved over the old, like the look at distance no longer being locked at 100km from you. Yes there are features some of us use which it doesn't have, but that doesn't make it 'half finished' or anything, just that somewhere someone made a design decision to not include those initially, even if they now revisit that decision.
I'd also rather a half finished camera now than have to try and get used to all the new features and the new camera at the same time, this way we get some time to get used to the camera before the features get added.

And frankly, there is no way the Devs can play the game as much as we can, and to avoid blatant favouritism the Devs need to not be very invested in the game. The last thing you want is factionalised Devs making changes to benefit themselves or their in game alliance.


Name one thing that was vastly improved over the old? are you saying a simple zooming out past 100k is it. If that is so, Why not just add that tiny bit of code to the existing code which in my opinion and a huge portion of the player-base feels was not broken.

Frankly the new camera makes me feel sick It's bloody awful. The old camera was fine.

So what if it was old code! It was well written code by Hilmar himself, it worked and did what it said on the tin.
The more I look at the new camera the more i'm inclined to say Hilmar's old code was in fact perfect and beautiful code.

No one ever complained about that camera before.. go find me a post that proves me wrong on that matter.

With regards to CCP not playing the game. Just imagine if Hilmar himself had not played the game and decided that jet can mining was an exploit. It would have taken 3 years for the average pilot to get into a battleship. Yes 3 years! how long for caps i wonder.

I suppose on a brighter note if Hilmar had removed jet can mining we would not have had Fozzie sov shoved down our throats as a result.

what game would we be playing now how would eve look do you think.
Alea
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2016-02-22 20:28:18 UTC
tiberiusric wrote:


Please Hilmar sell the company to someone who cares. Thats all that needs to be said


Lets say that someone has more money than sense and may be interested in buying the game Eve Online, lock stock and barrel, about how much money would they have to throw at this abomination to gain control then fixed by someone who actually loved and cared for the game.?

Out of curiosity of course.

Whomever is making the last few years decisions on what changes are to be implemented in this game, must hate Eve with all their being.
Vince Prince
Fart In A Spacesuit
Crimson Inquisicion
#18 - 2016-02-23 02:56:51 UTC
Alea wrote:
tiberiusric wrote:


Please Hilmar sell the company to someone who cares. Thats all that needs to be said


Lets say that someone has more money than sense and may be interested in buying the game Eve Online, lock stock and barrel, about how much money would they have to throw at this abomination to gain control then fixed by someone who actually loved and cared for the game.?

Out of curiosity of course.


I am not qualified to answer that question as I am just one of CCP'S players..

Do CCP care for there game? Surely they do, One has to wonder at some of the decisions of late but deep down how can they not.

If for arguments sake a company did bye Eve lock stock and barrel would they be qualified to continue to build the game we have loved for so long.

Could they understand the players passion for it and continue along the path CCP started all those years ago?

I don't think it would work. I think it would go the way of SWG "Star Wars Galaxies" when it was purchased by Sony.
Sony did not understand SWG's player-base and pushed changes onto the community with no regards for there input.
Sony was the death nail in the coffin for SWG

I just prey that Skill extractors are not the same for Eve.

I also don't think whoever made all the changes hates Eve, But on a lot of them I think they where deeply wrong and misguided.

Mine is just one opinion in a community of tens of thousands. Who's to say what the right choice and path for eve is.
The community perhaps?
Should popular opinion rule how the game progresses. Could the answer be that simple?
Glathull
Warlock Assassins
#19 - 2016-02-23 03:47:14 UTC
Oh look, another thread by professional game developers, technologists, and business people with ideas about how everything is wrong and how it would be so easy to just fix this one thing that annoys you.

After all, it's not like design is a matter of taste and trade-offs under constraints, or that revenue models are difficult business decisions, or that technology is hard.

No. Of course not. These things should all be decided--hell, maybe even coded--by players. Because design by committee consensus always works out so well.

I can't understand why no one ever listens to you at all.

I honestly feel like I just read fifty shades of dumb. --CCP Falcon
Vince Prince
Fart In A Spacesuit
Crimson Inquisicion
#20 - 2016-02-23 04:16:17 UTC
Glathull wrote:
Oh look, another thread by professional game developers, technologists, and business people with ideas about how everything is wrong and how it would be so easy to just fix this one thing that annoys you.

After all, it's not like design is a matter of taste and trade-offs under constraints, or that revenue models are difficult business decisions, or that technology is hard.

No. Of course not. These things should all be decided--hell, maybe even coded--by players. Because design by committee consensus always works out so well.

I can't understand why no one ever listens to you at all.


Hmm nice constructive post you have there. thanks for your input.

Did anyone in this post claim to be what you accused us of?

I for one think I have earned the right to make a post after "Logon statistics Time online 424d 12h 13m Daily average 2h 26m 52s"

Thats over a year of my life non stop interaction. Think on that? Rely think on that before you re-crap post.

If you feel the need to look me up and see how often I have posted, Not a lot and I don't flame or troll like someone I wont mention :p

The only reason I'm posting is because I love Eve and care about it's future can you honestly say you do?

That crappy post leads me to think otherwise.

Why not debate and give constructive criticism i'm open to it. How do you feel things are going Is it all rosy for you.

One wonders what i will find when i read your previous posts on the forum.





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