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[March] Damage Control Tiericide

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Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
#561 - 2016-02-21 21:25:05 UTC
Not sure I follow. I'm wondering why CCP is extending this to freighters. I'm of the thinking that freighters shouldn't get the same treatment as other ships. If that's what CCP wants to do, fine with me, but I'm not gonna lie...that's a lot of extra tank for freighters that is (forgive me if I misunderstood CCP Fozzie) is meant to offset the structure resist nerf to DC's. Since freighters cannot even use DC's, they're getting that extra tank for free essentially. I'm not against giving ships in general the structure resist buff, I just don't see freighters as a ship class that needs that. Shouldn't they at least be considered for a weaker buff?

"Tomahawks?"

"----in' A, right?"

"Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each."

"----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#562 - 2016-02-21 21:48:50 UTC
Sobaan Tali wrote:
Okay, so I just started reading this today, so these changes haven't had time to sink in for me, but why do freighters need this?

My first thought is that many other ships that CAN use a DC will loose less for not using one but not be any (or at least much) better off with one come 9 March, but since freighters CANNOT even use a DC, they are getting an unneeded buff to their structure. Correct me if I'm wrong, and if I'm not, why are we doing that to freighters?

I'm a freighter owner myself, more likely to be a victim of ganking sooner than be a ganker, and even I'm calling this a slap in gankers' faces. I know they buffed wreck hp, but this isn't quite an even trade. I must have missed something.


They don't. CCP Fozzie apparently does not like freighter ganking.

Yes, I have a freighter and a jump freighter so this change will benefit me....but I still do not like it.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#563 - 2016-02-22 00:59:01 UTC
It wouldnt make sense to have every ship but freighters gain structure resists, can you imagine the whine threads? CCP just aren't nerfing freighter HP to compensate.

Sucks i know.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Khan Wrenth
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#564 - 2016-02-22 01:12:22 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
It wouldnt make sense to have every ship but freighters gain structure resists, can you imagine the whine threads? CCP just aren't nerfing freighter HP to compensate.

Sucks i know.

To be fair, it doesn't make sense for any ship, outside of special niche cases, to have structure resists natively. It's structure, and that means your structure will have explosive resist that your armor layer won't.

I know I get a bit fixated on that, but really, the 0% resists was the entire point of structure. Giving ships natural resists in structure still does not make any sense to me.

Let's discuss overhauling the way we get intel in EvE.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#565 - 2016-02-22 01:34:58 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
It wouldnt make sense to have every ship but freighters gain structure resists, can you imagine the whine threads? CCP just aren't nerfing freighter HP to compensate.

Sucks i know.


Maybe CCP needs to HTFU.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Shova'k
The Bank Of Jita
#566 - 2016-02-22 02:10:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Shova'k
Sobaan Tali wrote:
Okay, so I just started reading this today, so these changes haven't had time to sink in for me, but why do freighters need this?

My first thought is that many other ships that CAN use a DC will loose less for not using one but not be any (or at least much) better off with one come 9 March, but since freighters CANNOT even use a DC, they are getting an unneeded buff to their structure. Correct me if I'm wrong, and if I'm not, why are we doing that to freighters?

I'm a freighter owner myself, more likely to be a victim of ganking sooner than be a ganker, and even I'm calling this a slap in gankers' faces. I know they buffed wreck hp, but this isn't quite an even trade. I must have missed something.



this is extremely far from a slap in the face to gankers in fact it isnt even close to enough to put some proper risk/reward on ganking since all they need are some low sp alts in catalysts and they can gank anything dirt cheap higher ehp just means they need to increase the number of cata alts in the gank. this is why gankers wont even fear ganking empty or cheap fits cause the value the kill adds to their killboard stats is normally worth the cost of ganking it with cheap cata alts.

the freighter/orca/bowhead wrecks being 15,000 hp now means it will take alot more for anti-gankers to blap the wrecks in order to deny loot very unlikely even a tornado could do it in 1 shot unless u get a very lucky critical volley lol.

what we really need is to add risk to the bump-tackling tactic gankers use to risk free hold any ship for as long as they want while they form up the catalyst fleet to come kill the target.

EDIT: when is this stuff gonna hit SISI for testing?
Murkar Omaristos
The Alabaster Albatross
Unreasonable Bastards
#567 - 2016-02-22 04:06:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Murkar Omaristos
On another note, if you wanted to fix freighter ganking, all that was required is to give freighters the same inertia bonus as JFs so they can be instantly webbed off gate with lvl 4 or 5. That way freighting is safe as long as you use a webber and don't AFK. Those that choose to afk or not use a webber or fail to skill up properly still leave targets for gankers.

Buffing their HP won't fix ganking, it will just make it harder. Lots of groups gank for fun rather than profit, and using gank thoraxes instead of catalysts really isn't a big deal.

This would make freighting safely a skill and somethng you need to learn and practice, rather than something you just automatically get by default.

TL;DR This changes nothing, give freighters an inertia bonus instead so that freighter ganking still affects bad pilots that don't take the time to learn their trade but has less of an effect on those that are careful and know what they're doing.
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#568 - 2016-02-22 06:04:33 UTC
I think this is a good change in terms of more fitting options, but is also more benefit to kiters and especially small ships because bigger ships almost always have room and resources for a dcu, but on destroyers and frigates its more of an optional thing.

would be good to see more room for face brawling and bigger ships in the meta but i feel like this change is a small nudge in the other direction.
Masao Kurata
Perkone
Caldari State
#569 - 2016-02-22 06:13:56 UTC
Murkar Omaristos wrote:
Buffing their HP won't fix ganking, it will just make it harder. Lots of groups gank for fun rather than profit, and using gank thoraxes instead of catalysts really isn't a big deal.


Y'know gank thoraxes are dumb, right? They're barely a dps upgrade. The correct next step is vexors (they have issues, especially for -10s and especially for -10 multiboxers),stealth bombers (purifiers and hounds are actually good gank ships, it just took us a long time to work it out) or brutixes. Or just straight to taloses.
Murkar Omaristos
The Alabaster Albatross
Unreasonable Bastards
#570 - 2016-02-22 08:17:17 UTC
Masao Kurata wrote:
Murkar Omaristos wrote:
Buffing their HP won't fix ganking, it will just make it harder. Lots of groups gank for fun rather than profit, and using gank thoraxes instead of catalysts really isn't a big deal.


Y'know gank thoraxes are dumb, right? They're barely a dps upgrade. The correct next step is vexors (they have issues, especially for -10s and especially for -10 multiboxers),stealth bombers (purifiers and hounds are actually good gank ships, it just took us a long time to work it out) or brutixes. Or just straight to taloses.


^^ this has literally no bearing on my point whatsoever.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#571 - 2016-02-22 09:13:06 UTC
Shova'k wrote:




the freighter/orca/bowhead wrecks being 15,000 hp now means it will take alot more for anti-gankers to blap the wrecks in order to deny loot very unlikely even a tornado could do it in 1 shot unless u get a very lucky critical volley lol.




You do realize that the obelisk is getting 157,000 more ehp out of this right? Gifting freighters more than 10x the tank that was given to wrecks and JF significantly more to compensate for the nerfing of a mod they cant even use is not exactly an even trade.

Equally this change isn't going to do what it is aimed to do. The DCU is still going to be pretty mandatory on most fits.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#572 - 2016-02-22 11:49:41 UTC
Sobaan Tali wrote:
Not sure I follow. I'm wondering why CCP is extending this to freighters. I'm of the thinking that freighters shouldn't get the same treatment as other ships.
Because they are extending it to all ships. Ships who currently don't use but can fit a DC are getting the same buff. Buffing all other ships that can fit a DC then skipping off those that doesn't would be giving them a relative nerf for no real reason other than to save gankers a few extra ships and some effort. Meanwhile the gankers ships (who also don't use DCs to keep their DPS up) will be harder for AGs to volley off the field.

It's certainly not a s big a deal as people are making it out to be (you can see the full CODE member propaganda push going into full swing) and people will adapt, which EVE players claim to be good at so v0v. All I know is I'm less likely to get a payout from when red frog/pushx/nee lose one of my freighter loads, yet I'm not crying about it.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#573 - 2016-02-22 14:11:45 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Shova'k wrote:




the freighter/orca/bowhead wrecks being 15,000 hp now means it will take alot more for anti-gankers to blap the wrecks in order to deny loot very unlikely even a tornado could do it in 1 shot unless u get a very lucky critical volley lol.




You do realize that the obelisk is getting 157,000 more ehp out of this right? Gifting freighters more than 10x the tank that was given to wrecks and JF significantly more to compensate for the nerfing of a mod they cant even use is not exactly an even trade.

Equally this change isn't going to do what it is aimed to do. The DCU is still going to be pretty mandatory on most fits.


I always though the DCU should of been a "oh ****" button and not a mod you perma-run at next to 0 cost. It's too good and has no counter. Even before making is passive, the cap cost and cycle time meant it anyone had snowball's chance in hell of turning it off. and it didn't even take a second for any ship to regen the cap needed to restart it between neuts cycles.
Zockhandra
Canadian Bacon.
Honorable Third Party
#574 - 2016-02-22 14:21:49 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Skyler Hawk wrote:
Will the shield and armour resists provided by damage controls continue to stack separately from links and other hardeners?

Yes.




Surely not EVERY ship needs the flat 33%?

I mean just going off some simple steps....

An ark, fitted with a hull tank, with armor fleet boosts, max skills and high grade slaves gets just a little short of 800k ehp...


Wat?

Shield are red, Armor is too, i slapped my heavy neut, all over you. Fingers crossed, broken shattered and burned, across from the bubble and into your hull.
Shova'k
The Bank Of Jita
#575 - 2016-02-22 15:22:56 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Shova'k wrote:




the freighter/orca/bowhead wrecks being 15,000 hp now means it will take alot more for anti-gankers to blap the wrecks in order to deny loot very unlikely even a tornado could do it in 1 shot unless u get a very lucky critical volley lol.




You do realize that the obelisk is getting 157,000 more ehp out of this right? Gifting freighters more than 10x the tank that was given to wrecks and JF significantly more to compensate for the nerfing of a mod they cant even use is not exactly an even trade.

Equally this change isn't going to do what it is aimed to do. The DCU is still going to be pretty mandatory on most fits.



still wont be much harder to gank with cata alts or talos alts in fact enough of either could gank any ship in game in even a 1.0 (burn jita 0.9 and burn amarr 1.0 events prove this) and it dont really cost that much. a little extra tank is only gonna make the gankers grumble a little that they need a few more ships. ganking will remain safe/easy and almost no risk because risk-free macharial alts using bumping mechanics to perma tackle targets they wanna gank.
Shova'k
The Bank Of Jita
#576 - 2016-02-22 15:27:57 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:


I always though the DCU should of been a "oh ****" button and not a mod you perma-run at next to 0 cost. It's too good and has no counter. Even before making is passive, the cap cost and cycle time meant it anyone had snowball's chance in hell of turning it off. and it didn't even take a second for any ship to regen the cap needed to restart it between neuts cycles.



the DCU is not that over powered people die all the time all it does is give you a very small window to gtfo in smaller situations or for maybe logi to cycle around to you even then i still saw many people with DCU II die before logi could get to them specialy since in larger fleets there is this thing called LAG (ti-di). this is more of a buff to the space rich who will use the deadspace/officer dcu II and to capitals/supers using officer dcu to get over 60% hull resist and the officer dcu applies almost a tech 1 invuln of no stacking penalized shield resist and more then an t2 enam to armor. so tbh only real issue is the space rich who will use the deadspace/officer varients.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#577 - 2016-02-22 16:34:24 UTC
Zockhandra wrote:
Surely not EVERY ship needs the flat 33%?

I mean just going off some simple steps....

An ark, fitted with a hull tank, with armor fleet boosts, max skills and high grade slaves gets just a little short of 800k ehp...


Wat?
How dare a 7b isk capital ship have EHP in line with (well, actually significantly below) other capital ships!

See the problem you are having here is you are looking at ships as if they should be designed around their potential to be ganked. They shouldn't, they should be designed around their function and where they fit into the tree with other ships. That they can be ganked is something that shouldn't be actively discouraged, but shouldn't be the leading - or even a significant - factor in their design.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Khan Wrenth
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#578 - 2016-02-22 17:00:56 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
How dare a 7b isk capital ship have EHP in line with (well, actually significantly below) other capital ships!

See the problem you are having here is you are looking at ships as if they should be designed around their potential to be ganked. They shouldn't, they should be designed around their function and where they fit into the tree with other ships. That they can be ganked is something that shouldn't be actively discouraged, but shouldn't be the leading - or even a significant - factor in their design.

Be careful what you ask for, though.

CCP Fozzie: "In tomorrow's patch, we decided to realign cap ship stats so there's no more glaring deficiencies between hulls of roughly similar size. Oh, and that means no more freighters in highsec since they're capships, so everyone's freighters are being automatically transferred to the nearest lowsec station at downtime".

Let's discuss overhauling the way we get intel in EvE.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#579 - 2016-02-22 17:06:58 UTC
Shova'k wrote:

still wont be much harder to gank with cata alts or talos alts in fact enough of either could gank any ship in game in even a 1.0 (burn jita 0.9 and burn amarr 1.0 events prove this) and it dont really cost that much.


Current cost to gank with talos stands at 1.6 billion in 0.6 space, with this change your are adding effectively another cargo expanded charon worth of tank to jump freighters which as you can guess is going to mean a lot more ships will be required.

Shova'k wrote:

a little extra tank is only gonna make the gankers grumble a little that they need a few more ships.


This isn't a little more tank, its a vast amount more tank being added. This is the biggest nerf to ganking since the insurance nerf and a nerf which isn't doing to do the job its supposed to do. DCU is still going to be a must have mod on most ships.
Shova'k
The Bank Of Jita
#580 - 2016-02-22 17:11:45 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

Current cost to gank with talos stands at 1.6 billion in 0.6 space, with this change your are adding effectively another cargo expanded charon worth of tank to jump freighters which as you can guess is going to mean a lot more ships will be required.



This isn't a little more tank, its a vast amount more tank being added. This is the biggest nerf to ganking since the insurance nerf and a nerf which isn't doing to do the job its supposed to do. DCU is still going to be a must have mod on most ships.



lol 1.6 billion is way to fracking cheap to gank a 7 bill ship any way you look at it this wont change **** it will still be dirt cheap compared to the investment of the person getting ganked. and CCP always favours ganking this is tbh the only true nerf to ganking removing insurance didnt hurt them at all in fact ganking went on a constant rise after the insurance nerf even ganking for lulz to pad killboards they gank cheap fit marauders and empty freighters/JF's cause they can. doubt this will change any of that lol specially now that its damn near impossible to deny them their loot with 15,000 hp wrecks.