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Eve devalued
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Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#221 - 2016-02-19 16:15:05 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Malcanis's Law: "Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of ‘new players’, that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players."


Maybe it's this law (which is actually just age old good sense instead of a true new thought, no one could have said it better than Malcanis though). My it's me having a firm foot in middle age now lol. But whatever it is, I've learned something: Don't argue (so much at least). Arguing just makes people entrench further in their beliefs.

The better way is to calmly wait for things to become so apparent that only the most delusional liar can ignore it, then point out to reasonable folks that the situation was avoidable with just a little bit of wisdom. I say Wisdom instead of intelligence because there is no shortage of intellectual horsepower in discussions like this, just very little foresight , and even less applying the lessons of the past to the current ideas.
Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#222 - 2016-02-20 15:13:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Divine Entervention
Even with my own trepidations, I know this does not ruin the game.

EvE devalued still has a lot more to offer than just about every other mmo on the market.

Perfection is impossible and those who demand it will always find disappointment.

Except with me, cuz I'm #thebest
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#223 - 2016-02-21 04:31:16 UTC
Avvy wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:



You don't realize it, but of the two of us, I'm the one arguing for the continuation of EVE Online and CCP (by CCP learning the lessons of the past, which they haven't done as evidenced by SP trading). What CCP is actually doing is reckless. The difference between now and monocle-gate is that people are so used to being juiced by corporations now they don't recognize it when it's happening.



So what you are saying is that you know better than those involved at CCP.

Great!

Maybe they should hire you.

Given CCPs track record of woeful decisions thats not a big thing? There are good people at CCP but that matters little if theyre not making the decisions. Happens all the time - Hubble - engineers wanted to check mirror measurements management didnt. Challanger - engineers wanted to wait for warmer weather the night before launch over concerns o rings would freeze, management didnt. Im sure there are people at CCP shaking their heads at this lameness.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
blue dehazon
Stonegard Arrows
#224 - 2016-02-22 00:21:17 UTC
Kant se that thers many valid points in this thred,first of all SP have nothing with howe good you are or knowe the game,it only showe howe loong you been paying for playing it,only way to find out if som is better or knowe more about the game is to interact with other players in ways EvE let you do,And most gamers are don with a game after 3-5 years,earning ingame Sp can be better for the game in the loong run like a smal reward for actuly logging in and playing it,if its not just for repeting the same missions.Buying Sp on the marked will probebly not be a bigg issue,after all you all redy have the caracter bassar.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#225 - 2016-02-22 01:36:50 UTC
blue dehazon wrote:
Kant se that thers many valid points in this thred,first of all SP have nothing with howe good you are or knowe the game,it only showe howe loong you been paying for playing it,only way to find out if som is better or knowe more about the game is to interact with other players in ways EvE let you do,And most gamers are don with a game after 3-5 years,earning ingame Sp can be better for the game in the loong run like a smal reward for actuly logging in and playing it,if its not just for repeting the same missions.Buying Sp on the marked will probebly not be a bigg issue,after all you all redy have the caracter bassar.

Nothing to do with how good you are despite providing between 10% to 50% more cap hp repairing armor speed accuracy damage targeting ECM cap leeching cap draining scanning warp scrambling, range, tracking.... yup apparantly in EvE skillpoints dont matter its all about RL player skill 😉

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
blue dehazon
Stonegard Arrows
#226 - 2016-02-22 02:59:32 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
blue dehazon wrote:
Kant se that thers many valid points in this thred,first of all SP have nothing with howe good you are or knowe the game,it only showe howe loong you been paying for playing it,only way to find out if som is better or knowe more about the game is to interact with other players in ways EvE let you do,And most gamers are don with a game after 3-5 years,earning ingame Sp can be better for the game in the loong run like a smal reward for actuly logging in and playing it,if its not just for repeting the same missions.Buying Sp on the marked will probebly not be a bigg issue,after all you all redy have the caracter bassar.

Nothing to do with how good you are despite providing between 10% to 50% more cap hp repairing armor speed accuracy damage targeting ECM cap leeching cap draining scanning warp scrambling, range, tracking.... yup apparantly in EvE skillpoints dont matter its all about RL player skill 😉
Sp dont tell you what a player been doing in the game, im 70m+ SP.and not don that mutch PVP.have good basic knowled about the game and most ship,but knowe werry well that som wth mutch less sp kan have a lot more exp with pvp,the point is its all depends on what you doing in game,and yes max pvp and skills give you an advantage,but iven more so if you knowe what your doing.
Johan Civire
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#227 - 2016-02-22 03:11:26 UTC
Stop the QQ people and play the god damn game already or leave it. There is nothing you can do about it unless you stop buying subscribes. And feel it that way. Shouting and debate won`t help at all. Only sturning people up for no reasons.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#228 - 2016-02-22 03:11:54 UTC
blue dehazon wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
blue dehazon wrote:
Kant se that thers many valid points in this thred,first of all SP have nothing with howe good you are or knowe the game,it only showe howe loong you been paying for playing it,only way to find out if som is better or knowe more about the game is to interact with other players in ways EvE let you do,And most gamers are don with a game after 3-5 years,earning ingame Sp can be better for the game in the loong run like a smal reward for actuly logging in and playing it,if its not just for repeting the same missions.Buying Sp on the marked will probebly not be a bigg issue,after all you all redy have the caracter bassar.

Nothing to do with how good you are despite providing between 10% to 50% more cap hp repairing armor speed accuracy damage targeting ECM cap leeching cap draining scanning warp scrambling, range, tracking.... yup apparantly in EvE skillpoints dont matter its all about RL player skill 😉
Sp dont tell you what a player been doing in the game, im 70m+ SP.and not don that mutch PVP.have good basic knowled about the game and most ship,but knowe werry well that som wth mutch less sp kan have a lot more exp with pvp,the point is its all depends on what you doing in game,and yes max pvp and skills give you an advantage,but iven more so if you knowe what your doing.

That reasoning applies to almost every PvP game. Better RL skiiled players can beat badly RL skilled players. That goes without saying. In a game such as WoW a player who is total crap can beat an amazing player based on gear. In EvE that is also true - Gear in WoW is looted gear as well as gems, specs. Gear in EvE is ships as well as skills. There is a vast difference between a plated proteus with T2 guns with applicable skills skills trained to 5 vs the same ship with skills trained to minimum prereqs only.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Geronimo McVain
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#229 - 2016-02-22 09:32:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Geronimo McVain
1. for every player that want's to buy skills there has to be one who ist willing to distribute, CCP is NOT selling skillpoint but the ability to trade them: big difference.

2. Who cares? I always looked down on cheaters because they take the easy way and are destroying their own fun in the end. Man will I be proud of my fist battleship and mourn when it goes down. THATS why I play eve. And thats why I never gank: The most fun ist a fight that you crawl out with just the paint and ducktape holding your ship in one peace.

Anyone who takes the ultrafast lane will soon be bored about the game cause there isn't anything to achieve and to proudly remember. So CCP gets some money, players get some isk AND the ability to respec some alts. I wouldn't be surprised if most injectors will be used within an account and not really sold on the market.
Ravana 729
A Drunken Squirrels' Conspiracy for Revenge
#230 - 2016-02-26 11:37:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Ravana 729
Ok first of all Eve is not a sandbox. I see people say that a lot but it is not much of one, and hasn't been for some time. People keep saying it is but it isn't. One of the ways it totally isn't a sandbox is the extremely problematic training climb - players MUST buy a character to even play the game. Being forced to fly frigs and do FW is not a sandbox at all. Not being able to influence the storyline at all unless CCP wills it is not a sandbox. Just look at the recent Imperium/Amarr conflict which CCP ignored so they could one-shot Jamyl because they have the attention span and imagination of an amoeba. Why would a company interfere with player driven stories with no professional writers on board?

Being forced to buy SP packs to augment training is not a sandbox. It means players like me who have extra cash and their dignity to sacrifice will prosper, other newbies will suffer the abhorrent current state of training. Secondly I am the target audience for the SP packs, low sp, one year of play, waiting months between ships I want to fly...it's absurd really. But I am not stupid and I refuse to shell out cash just because Eve has poor game design in its training and progression. Instead of fixing it they decided to cash in. And when I see this kind of behavior it seems desperate and really doesn't make me feel confident that the game is moving in a direction of growth.

When I saw that they were hiring people out of Electronic Arts it made me nervous. EA is known for this smash and grab behavior and cashing in wherever they think they can get away with it. I have boycotted EA games for almost 10 years.

As far as WoW being pay-to-win that situation is quite different. In WoW if you're broke and can't afford a free level up, you can do it in less than a month! You have always been able to buy a bunch of ISK and then buy a "max" Eve Character, so please don't pretend Eve is copying WoW, on the contrary it is not allowed to buy WoW characters! But the difference between WoW and Eve is that the game is playable from 1-100. It's fun to play in between if you choose not to buy a character prelevelled or not. Eve is quite different in that as a player there is no diversity at low levels unless you do Faction Warfare and get in a good corp. Even then you're limited to frigates and destroyers for quite some time, and they are not very effective compared to a one year old character. That is enough time to completely lose most new players.

Good game design requires game designers to hold the hand of new players, and let older players be free to do what they want.

I see little of either in Eve as it is right now.
Ravana 729
A Drunken Squirrels' Conspiracy for Revenge
#231 - 2016-02-26 12:02:12 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Avvy wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:



You don't realize it, but of the two of us, I'm the one arguing for the continuation of EVE Online and CCP (by CCP learning the lessons of the past, which they haven't done as evidenced by SP trading). What CCP is actually doing is reckless. The difference between now and monocle-gate is that people are so used to being juiced by corporations now they don't recognize it when it's happening.



So what you are saying is that you know better than those involved at CCP.

Great!

Maybe they should hire you.

Given CCPs track record of woeful decisions thats not a big thing? There are good people at CCP but that matters little if theyre not making the decisions. Happens all the time - Hubble - engineers wanted to check mirror measurements management didnt. Challanger - engineers wanted to wait for warmer weather the night before launch over concerns o rings would freeze, management didnt. Im sure there are people at CCP shaking their heads at this lameness.



I think about this all the time, I can't imagine how painful it must be for people to watch who are not in a position to change this shameful trend.
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#232 - 2016-02-26 18:47:10 UTC
When CCP chose DUST over World of Darkness, that was their biggest mistake.
Pandora Carrollon
Provi Rapid Response
#233 - 2016-02-26 20:34:51 UTC
Ravana 729 wrote:
Ok first of all Eve is not a sandbox. .. (snip)


I think you may not understand what the definition of a sandbox is. All those things you pointed out were game mechanics and nothing to do with 'sandbox worthiness'.

The sandbox concept, from a game design perspective is:


  1. The entire game player base is in the same universe, no doppelganger split of the universe across servers to handle player load or locality issues.
  2. The rules are the same for everyone, but everyone decides how to use and play with the rules, the game itself does not attempt to control the players beyond the interaction and boundary restriction rules.
  3. A sandbox is always at risk for players inventing unforeseen ways to play and use/abuse the rules. CCP calls this 'emergent gameplay' and encourages it. (That's risky for a company, most are control freaks so CCP is very different there!)


None of the points you raise really counter any of the list above, so EVE is a sandbox and the most open one I've ever seen in a game, much less an MMO.

The skill system, good or bad, appears to be a 'level system' replacement that most other MMO's use. If you were a tabletop RPG player, games like Call of Cthulu, GURPS, the Hero System, etc. all had experience points you could either earn and add at will to your character, or in the case of CoC, you got to check a skill every time you successfully did it and then rolled against it after the adventure. If you 'failed' that skill roll, you actually learned something and went up a point in that skill (you generally learn more from failure than success), some GM's reversed that and required a double failure of the skill (fail at first for the check, fail at the second check, this let skills that were low climb faster.)

The point is, all games with characters generally have some kind of skill increase system, either levels, roll checks, experience points, or in EVE's case, skill training tree which is active every second of every day, something most other games don't do.

So all CCP has done now, as has been stated in this thread and many others, is to allow those skills to be sold and redistributed to others that want faster learning of them and are willing to pay cash for it. That's good for CCP and the players. Yes, I see the reason for those that had to stay subscribed for so long to get high skill chars and it chaps them that rookies can now equal them. However, it's up to the player to play the game their way. The "New Rich" types shouldn't be much of a threat and the "Old Rich" can recall the glory days and how hard it was to get there as well as be proud they did it the hard way.

This horse is so dead, the flies are even done with it and the bacteria are starting to feel like it's not worth their effort. Nothing left to beat folks. Maybe post on the feedback thread some positive changes you might like to see to the skill system.

8 Golden Rules of EVE • EVE is entirely PvP
Johan Civire
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#234 - 2016-02-26 21:20:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Johan Civire
Estella Osoka wrote:
When CCP chose DUST over World of Darkness, that was their biggest mistake.


That has nothing to do with eve. On topic the numbers are stable for now. And a little increase.
And lets hope it stop the drop in numbers.

Source : http://eve-offline.net/?server=tranquility
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#235 - 2016-02-26 22:01:20 UTC
Johan Civire wrote:
Estella Osoka wrote:
When CCP chose DUST over World of Darkness, that was their biggest mistake.


That has nothing to do with eve. On topic the numbers are stable for now. And a little increase.
And lets hope it stop the drop in numbers.

Source : http://eve-offline.net/?server=tranquility


Actually, it does. World of Darkness would have been another income generator for the company. More income = more money to allocate to projects.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#236 - 2016-02-27 03:16:23 UTC
Estella Osoka wrote:
Johan Civire wrote:
Estella Osoka wrote:
When CCP chose DUST over World of Darkness, that was their biggest mistake.


That has nothing to do with eve. On topic the numbers are stable for now. And a little increase.
And lets hope it stop the drop in numbers.

Source : http://eve-offline.net/?server=tranquility


Actually, it does. World of Darkness would have been another income generator for the company. More income = more money to allocate to projects.

Imagine Microsoft on finding their Windows flagship was popular didnt create Windows 95, XP etc etc. Or the Ipod was never turned into the Iphone. CCP never creating an EvE 2 is the biggest mistake CCP made not Dust or WoD.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Daerrol
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#237 - 2016-02-27 05:46:48 UTC
People need to realize you could already do this for less IRL money than it costs now through the character bazaar. Used to get a very nice char for much less until SP trading came out. You just didn't know it was a 4 day old player who bought my Titan pilot, now you get to know. It's amazing how much agony people get when the veil is lifted but everything is pretty mcuh exactly as it was. (actually SP is now much more expensive to buy so likely less people will do it.)
Ravana 729
A Drunken Squirrels' Conspiracy for Revenge
#238 - 2016-02-27 21:41:32 UTC
The word emergent in game design doesn't mean what you think it does.

It's a word used to describe the phenomenon of eerie realism that emerges when certain elements are brought together in just the right way. Sim City was one of the most famous games to do this, many other games can be observed creating this phenomenon. I havn't actually seen a lot of it in Eve, probably because of the limited amount of interaction one can have with the world of Eve itself. I don't consider interaction with people to be emergent gameplay, it's just playing with other humans, therefore it is real, but whether it's emergent depends on how good your sense of imagination is. If you're good at this then you will experience a special kind of emergence. But you can get this same kind of emergence from LARP and FPS . It isn't part of a sandbox experience.

One world is not a sandbox, even considering that there are private Eve servers and parallel universe instances of Eve. They have no bearing on the gameplay at all. How you got to this conclusion is beyond me. Maybe because you think that you end up dealing with more players? With the way servers are linked on most other games now it just isn't that unique or revolutionary, and it certainly isn't a part of a "sandbox"

A sandbox experience is one in which you can choose how you want to play the game, who you want to be. Some of that IS there, but most of it isn't. The very important parts that have to do with Pvp do not exist. I think this is why so many new players go into trading and mining.

The game needs an actual game designer to get in there and fix the power creep that has gone on and the bad game design that has been applied in an attempt to fix it. Someone who could design a fun board or card game from the ground up - not a programmer or artist, or someone who can do anything technical, but a real game designer. That's what game designers are for - they make stuff fun, and they know what words like emergence and sandbox mean.