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Rorqual Down Under

Author
Karash Amerius
The Seven Shadows
Scotch And Tea.
#21 - 2015-12-10 19:41:59 UTC
How about giving it the "immunity to dscan" ability, but also have it extend in a 25km radius, sort of like that deployable we have (that no one uses). Would be very beneficial for all the mining fleet.

Karash Amerius Operative, Sutoka

Amarrchecko
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#22 - 2015-12-10 22:20:35 UTC
Karash Amerius wrote:
How about giving it the "immunity to dscan" ability, but also have it extend in a 25km radius, sort of like that deployable we have (that no one uses). Would be very beneficial for all the mining fleet.


Very beneficial? I don't think so. The 3-4 most likely locations for miners to be set up in a system pop right up in everyone's probe scanner, after all. Why would someone need to use dscan or probes to find the mining op when he could just warp to the belts and look? Maybe some people would take 30 seconds longer to find the op if they can't use probes... but that isn't going to be enough to convince anyone to lock their rorq into 5 minutes of IC at a time.
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#23 - 2015-12-11 00:35:58 UTC
Dissenting opinion here.

I see potential in a mining ship with considerably higher yield than a Hulk, and moderate but not overwhelming defensive capabilities.

If you are mining in space that hostiles can infiltrate in numbers, you use a disposable fleet of barges and exhumers instead.

But if you believe you have firm control over a mining system in deep null, THEN you bring out the Rorqual and reap the rewards of that control.

And if you believe you have firm control over a system but you are wrong - then this can drive fights.

A reason to actively defend mining operations in nullsec is something that is sorely needed in the game.


If the Rorqual has three times the yield of a Hulk, it becomes (sometimes) worth the risk of fielding it.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com

Amarrchecko
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#24 - 2015-12-11 02:52:27 UTC
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
Dissenting opinion here.

I see potential in a mining ship with considerably higher yield than a Hulk, and moderate but not overwhelming defensive capabilities.

If you are mining in space that hostiles can infiltrate in numbers, you use a disposable fleet of barges and exhumers instead.

But if you believe you have firm control over a mining system in deep null, THEN you bring out the Rorqual and reap the rewards of that control.

And if you believe you have firm control over a system but you are wrong - then this can drive fights.

A reason to actively defend mining operations in nullsec is something that is sorely needed in the game.


If the Rorqual has three times the yield of a Hulk, it becomes (sometimes) worth the risk of fielding it.


Does anyone use hulks in null? In my limited experience, everyone just uses skiffs to be able to handle rats more easily. That's why I'm kind of excited, hoping that they do something with the rorq that makes it more appealing to actually take to belts... cause if it's in a belt, I'll fly hulks instead of skiffs and use a rorq in place of a hauler+relying on someone else for the boosts from a POS.
Zifrian
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2015-12-11 03:30:53 UTC
I use macks because I hate can mining and Rorqual cleanup. I could easily handle most rats solo but I have a lot of sps.

Maximze your Industry Potential! - Download EVE Isk per Hour!

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Fat Buddah
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2015-12-11 04:58:45 UTC
Rorqual had two good things going on and that was boosting and ore compression. Now boosting role is taken by Orcas and compression is done at POS hence the issue.

Rorqual was supposed to be an industrial capital ship, so why not stick to that concept?

Extend the compression feature and give it a Ships & Modules compression core.
Give it some internal lab slots with slightly less bonuses than POS labs (but no fuel block required yay).
That would make Rorqual a real industrial capital ship, a mobile hub for barges and indis.
Amarrchecko
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#27 - 2015-12-11 13:33:26 UTC
Zifrian wrote:
I use macks because I hate can mining and Rorqual cleanup. I could easily handle most rats solo but I have a lot of sps.


Really? My little mining fleet of 4 procurers/skiffs with t2 light drones and 85+ resists will sometimes take 5k+ shield damage before they can kill off rats in lower truesecs. And a single mack would need a few times as long to kill the rats while sporting a fraction of the tank.
Sim Cognito
Obani Gemini Corporation
#28 - 2015-12-13 14:42:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Sim Cognito
The Rorqual right now has very little function. It is a very cool concept that had potential back when it was released, but real gameplay and recent changes have rendered it largely obsolete. For me it was always the ultimate industrial mining ship and so it remains, but I can't justify actually using it. I have heard many people's opinions and ideas, and have formulated my own set of proposals. Here we go:


Problems

  • The Rorqual is only useful for afkPOS-boosting. No gameplay
  • Weak, immobile
  • Other functions are either very easily substituted by cheaper and more versatile options or just neglected.
  • Huge risk, tiny reward
  • Industrial Core is a mess.
  • Boosting is too afk/POS friendly.


Proposals

  • Introduce Capital Mining Drones, that mine the asteroids and eject their load in specialized containers, eliminating travel time considerations and making Capital Tractor Beams an essential part of Rorqual gameplay (micro-management). The overall output should exceed that of a maxed Hulk, think of it as the mining equivalent of a ratting carrier.
  • Tank and RR. It should be a tough nut to crack and able to RR nearby vessels effectively.
  • Rat defense. Committing a Rorqual on the field should mean NPCs are no longer a threat, with a bonused flight of conventional combat drones, that do not replace the Capital Mining Drones. (5+5)
  • The Industrial Core is an important part, but not the central aspect of the Rorqual. It retains compression functions (albeit highly buffed to compete with POS module), applies significant tank and RR capabilities, with a set up timer of ~10s and a set down timer of ~10s. What this means is, when the Industrial Core is activated, the ship is vulnerable for 10s, likewise when it is deactivated. There is no "cycle", or mandatory duration, but a set-up/set-down timer.
  • Separate boosting bonus and Industrial Core.
  • Make boosting to require the ship with the links be on grid.


Commentary, Counterarguments

The ship is a Capital, it's slow, it's expensive, it should be able to do things. It is not supposed to be an ultra-Hulk, but that should not mean it should be incapable of mining. The concept should be "Mining Operation Support Hub", which means it needs to be in the Asteroid Belt, with the miners, fending of NPC rats, ensuring no harm is done to weaker exhumers, all the while boosting mining output and contributing its fair share with Capital Mining Drones.

The Industrial Core works in addition, and not as a central part. Think of the Marauder Bastion: It's an important part, but not the end be all of the ship class. When it's activated, it should enable the compression function, and boost the defense to offset its immobility. The reason I separate the boosting bonus from the Core, is because this creates too many problems: The boosting is indispensable, but you can't commit to an immobile Rorqual in a belt. It's a POS sentence for the ship. A 10 second on/off timer is already more than enough, considering that the ship needs to get to warp speed to leave in the first place. I've died in belts in much less time.

Some will argue that this will flood the market with minerals. I don't think it makes a difference. We're talking about an increase of the equivalent 2-3 Hulks per each active Rorqual in the game, by taking their continued bonuses for granted. Remember, when the Rorqual is actually being flown, those bonuses may no longer be there 23/7, like they are now. It needs an actual pilot, to be in the belt, so the boosts can reach the Exhumers. This means attention, actual play, and not AFK multiboxing. Overall, I think it won't make any difference in mineral production, in fact, it may even hurt it a little.

As for multiboxing, considering that the Capital Mining Drones will involve micro-managing with the Capital Tractor Beams (target-tractor-load to Rorqual/Fleet Hangar for hauler or w/e), not unlike shooting rats in a PVE environment, the Rorqual scales horrible for multi-boxing, and thus there is no risk of massive increases of yields for this type of player. Realistically, a multi-boxer with multiple Hulks and hauling, shouldn't be able to micro-manage more than one Rorqual, if at all. To prevent multiple Rorquals afking, and haulers just picking their drone-cans, make Rorqual Capital Tractor Beams the only ones able to tractor and scoop them.

As for server load (tons of extra cans, tons of extra drones), this can be remedied by imposing special conditions for the containers ejected by the drones (maximum number per drone, short duration). The number of drones is a subject that has been difficult for CCP in the past, but I believe that right now an extra 5 drones per Rorqual should prove to be an obstacle. I insist on the concurrency of combat and mining drones in order to justify the Rorqual being there. Having to recall your mining drones to launch your combat drones whenever an emergency occurs just isn't acceptable for a commitment at the level of a Rorqual. Hopefully this is technically feasible, but the upcoming fighter changes are a good sign.
Quote:

tl;dr mining fighters that eject containers with tractor micro, industrial core on the sidelines, Rorquals in belts, tank, RR, belts rats not a problem, buff compression, on grid boosting, boost bonus separate from industrial core,



EDIT:
Some more:

  • Ore hold should be bigger. It shouldn't be the driving factor behind compression.
  • Ship Maintenance should return to be able to fit all ships.
  • The Jump Range is too small.
Zifrian
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2015-12-15 14:28:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Zifrian
Amarrchecko wrote:
Zifrian wrote:
I use macks because I hate can mining and Rorqual cleanup. I could easily handle most rats solo but I have a lot of sps.


Really? My little mining fleet of 4 procurers/skiffs with t2 light drones and 85+ resists will sometimes take 5k+ shield damage before they can kill off rats in lower truesecs. And a single mack would need a few times as long to kill the rats while sporting a fraction of the tank.

Well, this was in drone space so I'm not sure how it would work elsewhere. I could solo/duo almost anything with small drones. Three BS I had troubles with but if I had three miners out it wasn't an issue.

This was the fit I used. Some more expensive items there but not too bad. I might have had to use an implant to fit, but can't remember.

[Mackinaw, Mack Miner]
Mining Laser Upgrade II
Mining Laser Upgrade II
Mining Laser Upgrade II

Gistii A-Type Small Shield Booster (120 mil)
Domination Adaptive Invulnerability Field (77 mil)
Basic Explosive Deflection Amplifier
Basic Kinetic Deflection Amplifier

Modulated Strip Miner II
Modulated Strip Miner II

Medium Drone Mining Augmentor II
Medium Processor Overclocking Unit I

Acolyte II x5
Mining Drone II x5

Maximze your Industry Potential! - Download EVE Isk per Hour!

Import CCP's SDE - EVE SDE Database Builder

Kiddoomer
The Red Sequence
#30 - 2015-12-15 16:26:34 UTC
Zifrian wrote:
[quote=Amarrchecko][quote=Zifrian]
[Mackinaw, Mack Miner]
Mining Laser Upgrade II
Mining Laser Upgrade II
Mining Laser Upgrade II

Gistii A-Type Small Shield Booster (120 mil)
Domination Adaptive Invulnerability Field (77 mil)
Basic Explosive Deflection Amplifier
Basic Kinetic Deflection Amplifier

Modulated Strip Miner II
Modulated Strip Miner II

Medium Drone Mining Augmentor II
Medium Processor Overclocking Unit I

Acolyte II x5
Mining Drone II x5


Where is the Higgs anchor on this dimmit ? :P I agree though that the mackinaw with 1-2 not that cheap modules can manage null sec npc, except some rare battleships.

For the topic, I would like to see the rorqual being able to refine ores and manufacture stuff up to frigates while immobilized, this would be awesome for people not really needing a small pos neither a medium citadel for their daily operations.

In the name of Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen : “Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.”

handige harrie
Vereenigde Handels Compagnie
#31 - 2015-12-25 11:27:18 UTC
This whole Rorqual mess has only confirmed that CCP doesn't have any interest in making the industrial side any better or that they have any interest in the industrial side of Eve at all. Instead they only cater to their own interest area and to the 'microgang' 'in' crowd, which is starting to become a detriment to the overall health of the game.

Baddest poster ever

Kyra Lee
Doomheim
#32 - 2015-12-26 03:40:19 UTC
handige harrie wrote:
This whole Rorqual mess has only confirmed that CCP doesn't have any interest in making the industrial side any better or that they have any interest in the industrial side of Eve at all. Instead they only cater to their own interest area and to the 'microgang' 'in' crowd, which is starting to become a detriment to the overall health of the game.


They made significant changes to Industry in Crius, some were good, some were not. So I think they are indeed working on making things better for Industry in general. Mining specifically however they may not be... This thread and others like it have shown the true problem with the Rorq. It is a ship no significant role in a field that doesn't seem to need any other roles filled. No one knows what to do with this ship, the player or the devs. Many of the suggestions in these threads try to turn the Rorq into something game breaking or over complicated, and the lack of ideas coming from CCP seems to mean the same thing to me.

I am sure CCP is "working" on the Rorq but until someone has a brilliant idea that doesn't break other areas of the game it will continue being an almost useless ship.
handige harrie
Vereenigde Handels Compagnie
#33 - 2015-12-26 14:30:05 UTC  |  Edited by: handige harrie
Kyra Lee wrote:
handige harrie wrote:
This whole Rorqual mess has only confirmed that CCP doesn't have any interest in making the industrial side any better or that they have any interest in the industrial side of Eve at all. Instead they only cater to their own interest area and to the 'microgang' 'in' crowd, which is starting to become a detriment to the overall health of the game.


They made significant changes to Industry in Crius, some were good, some were not. So I think they are indeed working on making things better for Industry in general. Mining specifically however they may not be... This thread and others like it have shown the true problem with the Rorq. It is a ship no significant role in a field that doesn't seem to need any other roles filled. No one knows what to do with this ship, the player or the devs. Many of the suggestions in these threads try to turn the Rorq into something game breaking or over complicated, and the lack of ideas coming from CCP seems to mean the same thing to me.

I am sure CCP is "working" on the Rorq but until someone has a brilliant idea that doesn't break other areas of the game it will continue being an almost useless ship.


During Crius they removed almost as much from industry as they added and then a couple months after Crius they removed all the new stuff they added, only leaving some number fiddling in the game and the new UI, none of which added any new gameplay. That mess of an expansion is the reason why the Rorq is in such a bad shape in the first place, the jump drive nerfs only added insult to injury.

For the Rorq redesign they only have to look at the forums for good ideas there are plenty. Yet they somehow have to come up with something that makes no sense from an industrial / mining standpoint.

Now they have these 'focus' groups for pvp balancing in which the in crowd says what they want, why don't they add a focus group for the rorqual?

CCP has no clue how to design interesting industrial gameplay and it's starting to get painfully obvious.

Baddest poster ever

Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#34 - 2015-12-26 21:38:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
handige harrie wrote:
During Crius they removed almost as much from industry as they added and then a couple months after Crius they removed all the new stuff they added, only leaving some number fiddling in the game and the new UI, none of which added any new gameplay.

FWIW, if you want support for your argument, look at the stickies in this forum.

Specifically: Industry Teams - Current Plans

i.e. Long forgotten. The industry community is largely ignored; just look at CCP's participation in this forum.
Leila Meurtrier
Why Am I Not Surprised
#35 - 2015-12-27 13:00:24 UTC
Before you'll think about ANYTHING about Rorqual, you should understand the whole CCP "vision" of low/null. And in their vision it's not big blue doughnut. It's a shattered world of small (relatively) communities biting each other. Hence the balance of most ships, hence the Orca/Rorqual bonuses, both current and "planned".
If you ever lived in null you owned, but had little in terms of people, you'd know how upgrades are easy on rat side while it's total PITA to get mining index high enough. It's not designed that way to encourage living in the doughnut, it's designed that way to force ratting in pvp fits, running to the aid should someone mess up with miner fleet. That immunity/immobile goes perfectly in line of compromises between people ratting in specialized fits and forcing people to defend miners by giving them some time to get on the station/depot/pos and refit for battle, ACCORDING TO INTEL ATTACKED MINERS ARE GIVING.

The only problem is the fact that this will never work. Average miner in low/null will panic while grizzled miners fly tanked/hydra procs and eat bullies for breakfast.
Bellona Rikan
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#36 - 2016-01-04 20:46:53 UTC
This!

Sim Cognito wrote:
The Rorqual right now has very little function. It is a very cool concept that had potential back when it was released, but real gameplay and recent changes have rendered it largely obsolete. For me it was always the ultimate industrial mining ship and so it remains, but I can't justify actually using it. I have heard many people's opinions and ideas, and have formulated my own set of proposals. Here we go:


Problems

  • The Rorqual is only useful for afkPOS-boosting. No gameplay
  • Weak, immobile
  • Other functions are either very easily substituted by cheaper and more versatile options or just neglected.
  • Huge risk, tiny reward
  • Industrial Core is a mess.
  • Boosting is too afk/POS friendly.


Proposals

  • Introduce Capital Mining Drones, that mine the asteroids and eject their load in specialized containers, eliminating travel time considerations and making Capital Tractor Beams an essential part of Rorqual gameplay (micro-management). The overall output should exceed that of a maxed Hulk, think of it as the mining equivalent of a ratting carrier.
  • Tank and RR. It should be a tough nut to crack and able to RR nearby vessels effectively.
  • Rat defense. Committing a Rorqual on the field should mean NPCs are no longer a threat, with a bonused flight of conventional combat drones, that do not replace the Capital Mining Drones. (5+5)
  • The Industrial Core is an important part, but not the central aspect of the Rorqual. It retains compression functions (albeit highly buffed to compete with POS module), applies significant tank and RR capabilities, with a set up timer of ~10s and a set down timer of ~10s. What this means is, when the Industrial Core is activated, the ship is vulnerable for 10s, likewise when it is deactivated. There is no "cycle", or mandatory duration, but a set-up/set-down timer.
  • Separate boosting bonus and Industrial Core.
  • Make boosting to require the ship with the links be on grid.


Commentary, Counterarguments

The ship is a Capital, it's slow, it's expensive, it should be able to do things. It is not supposed to be an ultra-Hulk, but that should not mean it should be incapable of mining. The concept should be "Mining Operation Support Hub", which means it needs to be in the Asteroid Belt, with the miners, fending of NPC rats, ensuring no harm is done to weaker exhumers, all the while boosting mining output and contributing its fair share with Capital Mining Drones.

The Industrial Core works in addition, and not as a central part. Think of the Marauder Bastion: It's an important part, but not the end be all of the ship class. When it's activated, it should enable the compression function, and boost the defense to offset its immobility. The reason I separate the boosting bonus from the Core, is because this creates too many problems: The boosting is indispensable, but you can't commit to an immobile Rorqual in a belt. It's a POS sentence for the ship. A 10 second on/off timer is already more than enough, considering that the ship needs to get to warp speed to leave in the first place. I've died in belts in much less time.

Some will argue that this will flood the market with minerals. I don't think it makes a difference. We're talking about an increase of the equivalent 2-3 Hulks per each active Rorqual in the game, by taking their continued bonuses for granted. Remember, when the Rorqual is actually being flown, those bonuses may no longer be there 23/7, like they are now. It needs an actual pilot, to be in the belt, so the boosts can reach the Exhumers. This means attention, actual play, and not AFK multiboxing. Overall, I think it won't make any difference in mineral production, in fact, it may even hurt it a little.

As for multiboxing, considering that the Capital Mining Drones will involve micro-managing with the Capital Tractor Beams (target-tractor-load to Rorqual/Fleet Hangar for hauler or w/e), not unlike shooting rats in a PVE environment, the Rorqual scales horrible for multi-boxing, and thus there is no risk of massive increases of yields for this type of player. Realistically, a multi-boxer with multiple Hulks and hauling, shouldn't be able to micro-manage more than one Rorqual, if at all. To prevent multiple Rorquals afking, and haulers just picking their drone-cans, make Rorqual Capital Tractor Beams the only ones able to tractor and scoop them.

As for server load (tons of extra cans, tons of extra drones), this can be remedied by imposing special conditions for the containers ejected by the drones (maximum number per drone, short duration). The number of drones is a subject that has been difficult for CCP in the past, but I believe that right now an extra 5 drones per Rorqual should prove to be an obstacle. I insist on the concurrency of combat and mining drones in order to justify the Rorqual being there. Having to recall your mining drones to launch your combat drones whenever an emergency occurs just isn't acceptable for a commitment at the level of a Rorqual. Hopefully this is technically feasible, but the upcoming fighter changes are a good sign.
Quote:

tl;dr mining fighters that eject containers with tractor micro, industrial core on the sidelines, Rorquals in belts, tank, RR, belts rats not a problem, buff compression, on grid boosting, boost bonus separate from industrial core,



EDIT:
Some more:

  • Ore hold should be bigger. It shouldn't be the driving factor behind compression.
  • Ship Maintenance should return to be able to fit all ships.
  • The Jump Range is too small.

Temugen
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#37 - 2016-02-19 21:16:56 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:


One could deploy a scan blocker, but I expect that about as far as CCP will want to go.



You mean those scan blockers that show up on dscan? One of CCP's more incredibly dumb ideas.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#38 - 2016-02-19 21:40:51 UTC
Temugen wrote:
Tau Cabalander wrote:

One could deploy a scan blocker, but I expect that about as far as CCP will want to go.

You mean those scan blockers that show up on dscan? One of CCP's more incredibly dumb ideas.

Yup. CCP don't want anyone to be completely safe.
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