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Worries about the skill injectors, and the future of the game.

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Avvy
Doomheim
#141 - 2016-02-17 22:09:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Avvy
Dalketh wrote:

.

And no it doesn't give 'new players a leg up'. It gives 'rich players' an instant advantage over the poorer players. Instant advantage.




The system doesn't help new players that can't afford sp injectors.



Which is why the next stage should be to get rid of attributes and attribute implants and replace them with a set training time at a training rate that compensates the removal of attributes and the attribute implants.

That way they can train different skill sets (trade, gunnery, social, spaceship command) without any penalty.

Which will at least help those that can't use sp injectors.

As for those that can use sp injectors attributes and attribute implants no longer matter anyway.
CCP Falcon
#142 - 2016-02-18 00:03:53 UTC
Manssell wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:

... Put the average driver in an F1 car and they're not going to have the first idea of how to drive it, despite having a driver's license.




Pastor Maldonado paid to win.


Yeah, and that turned out so well.

Lol

CCP Falcon || EVE Universe Community Manager || @CCP_Falcon

Happy Birthday To FAWLTY7! <3
CCP Falcon
#143 - 2016-02-18 00:05:18 UTC
Mag's wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
I've also been with EVE for 13 years, ironically my first reaction to skillpoint trading was negative too, but it was a knee-jerk reaction from a 13 year veteran of the game who thought a change so fundamental would destroy everything he loved about EVE.

I'm happy to say that I was wrong, and after I looked at the situation from what I consider to be a sensible point of view that came after my initial reaction, the rationale for it kind of fell into place and I now understand the system.
I've been here almost 12 years. I didn't agree with the first blog and it's poor reasoning. I still don't agree, even after the pretence around the Kil2 name reasoning was dropped.
This is short sighted and not good for the long term.

Could I be wrong? Well yes. But the reasoning was so bad for this, I don't think the risk was worth it. CCP's recent history of getting it right first time isn't very good, but money ruled the day here.
So while you try and convince yourself, I'll stick with my first reaction. I do think this will be bad for Eve, long term. The cat is well and truly out of the bag.

Good luck.


Well, we both have our opinions as long standing vets of the game mate, and sometimes people just don't agree on things.

I respect what you're saying, and can see your angle, I just can't agree with it.

Time will tell I suppose. I feel that there are exciting times ahead for EVE Smile


CCP Falcon || EVE Universe Community Manager || @CCP_Falcon

Happy Birthday To FAWLTY7! <3
CCP Falcon
#144 - 2016-02-18 00:06:46 UTC
Zifrian wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
Demolishar wrote:
Almost 3000 words. A pity that your great work will be locked for ranting soon.


I don't really think this is a rant to be honest, and many of these points were discussed internally before the feature went live, or was fully fleshed out.

I've also been with EVE for 13 years, ironically my first reaction to skillpoint trading was negative too, but it was a knee-jerk reaction from a 13 year veteran of the game who thought a change so fundamental would destroy everything he loved about EVE.

I'm happy to say that I was wrong, and after I looked at the situation from what I consider to be a sensible point of view that came after my initial reaction, the rationale for it kind of fell into place and I now understand the system.

There's a simple flaw with any "Pay To Win" argument against skill trading.

A pilot who knows what they're doing with a Rifter and a 2 skillpoints can end the world for a clueless player with 300 million skillpoints. Put the average driver in an F1 car and they're not going to have the first idea of how to drive it, despite having a driver's license.

All skillpoints do is unlock the ability to fly a given hull with a given weapon, or utilize a given module to a particular end. Using the ship and modules is where the skill lies, and is the key to victory or failure. That's what defines you as an EVE player.

Being able to trade skillpoints and freely respec your character changes very little. What it does is allow people to keep their gameplay fresh and try new things, or gives new players a leg up to be able to try new things faster if they choose to do so.

That's my take on it anyway, as a 13 year vet of EVE.

Smile

Thanks for the perspective but without data, we won't know if the game is just allowing those with high SPs or ISK to benefit from this system. Is CCP going to do a dev blog in a month or two to show everyone who is using the injectors - new accounts, newbies or vets?, who paid for them - isk transfers or from wallet?, or how - PLEX purchases with RL money or from wallet isk?


If a Dev blog with some statistics in it about how skill trading is being used and what kind of transfer is going on, that's something I can talk to the analytics team about in a few months once we have some solid data over a reasonably length of time.

Smile

CCP Falcon || EVE Universe Community Manager || @CCP_Falcon

Happy Birthday To FAWLTY7! <3
Tosawa Komarui
State War Academy
Caldari State
#145 - 2016-02-18 00:19:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Tosawa Komarui
CCP Falcon wrote:
Demolishar wrote:
Almost 3000 words. A pity that your great work will be locked for ranting soon.


I don't really think this is a rant to be honest, and many of these points were discussed internally before the feature went live, or was fully fleshed out.

I've also been with EVE for 13 years, ironically my first reaction to skillpoint trading was negative too, but it was a knee-jerk reaction from a 13 year veteran of the game who thought a change so fundamental would destroy everything he loved about EVE.

I'm happy to say that I was wrong, and after I looked at the situation from what I consider to be a sensible point of view that came after my initial reaction, the rationale for it kind of fell into place and I now understand the system.

There's a simple flaw with any "Pay To Win" argument against skill trading.

A pilot who knows what they're doing with a Rifter and a 2 skillpoints can end the world for a clueless player with 300 million skillpoints. Put the average driver in an F1 car and they're not going to have the first idea of how to drive it, despite having a driver's license.

All skillpoints do is unlock the ability to fly a given hull with a given weapon, or utilize a given module to a particular end. Using the ship and modules is where the skill lies, and is the key to victory or failure. That's what defines you as an EVE player.

Being able to trade skillpoints and freely respec your character changes very little. What it does is allow people to keep their gameplay fresh and try new things, or gives new players a leg up to be able to try new things faster if they choose to do so.

That's my take on it anyway, as a 13 year vet of EVE.

Smile



why not remove skillpoints entirely then since they dont really matter, and as you described them they are just a wall to prevent people from doing what they want to do in the game. P
Avvy
Doomheim
#146 - 2016-02-18 00:30:27 UTC
Tosawa Komarui wrote:


why not remove skillpoints entirely then since they dont really matter, and as you described them they are just a wall to prevent people from doing what they want to do in the game. P



How I see it.

SP allows me to tailor the skills to this character. For instance, I don't want industrial or mining skills.

SP still gives a sense of progression (unless you are called Ironbank) the rate of progression depends on what means you use.

Isk for sp injectors, gives a reason to do missions or what other activity you make isk with.

It also means that someone that can spend a lot of time in-game can for the first time feel like their time spent in-game can add to the rate of progression of their character.
Sentient Blade
Crisis Atmosphere
Coalition of the Unfortunate
#147 - 2016-02-18 00:34:35 UTC
If we do have statistics I'd love to see some cross-account comparisons, for example, I'd like to know how many actual newbie characters are injecting SP vs how many alts of older players who are skilling up their 5th supercarrier etc.
Tosawa Komarui
State War Academy
Caldari State
#148 - 2016-02-18 00:36:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Tosawa Komarui
Avvy wrote:
Tosawa Komarui wrote:


why not remove skillpoints entirely then since they dont really matter, and as you described them they are just a wall to prevent people from doing what they want to do in the game. P



How I see it.

SP allows me to tailor the skills to this character. For instance, I don't want industrial or mining skills.

SP still gives a sense of progression (unless you are called Ironbank) the rate of progression depends on what means you use.

Isk for sp injectors, gives a reason to do missions or what other activity you make isk with.

It also means that someone that can spend a lot of time in-game can for the first time feel like their time spent in-game can add to the rate of progression of their character.





i was just mostly poking fun at the way he dismissed the importance of skillpoints, i understand the importance of specialization, i just thought it was a strange post.
True Sight
Deep Freeze Industries
#149 - 2016-02-18 02:34:09 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:

I don't really think this is a rant to be honest, and many of these points were discussed internally before the feature went live, or was fully fleshed out.

I've also been with EVE for 13 years, ironically my first reaction to skillpoint trading was negative too, but it was a knee-jerk reaction from a 13 year veteran of the game who thought a change so fundamental would destroy everything he loved about EVE.

I'm happy to say that I was wrong, and after I looked at the situation from what I consider to be a sensible point of view that came after my initial reaction, the rationale for it kind of fell into place and I now understand the system.

There's a simple flaw with any "Pay To Win" argument against skill trading.

A pilot who knows what they're doing with a Rifter and a 2 skillpoints can end the world for a clueless player with 300 million skillpoints. Put the average driver in an F1 car and they're not going to have the first idea of how to drive it, despite having a driver's license.

All skillpoints do is unlock the ability to fly a given hull with a given weapon, or utilize a given module to a particular end. Using the ship and modules is where the skill lies, and is the key to victory or failure. That's what defines you as an EVE player.

Being able to trade skillpoints and freely respec your character changes very little. What it does is allow people to keep their gameplay fresh and try new things, or gives new players a leg up to be able to try new things faster if they choose to do so.

That's my take on it anyway, as a 13 year vet of EVE.

Smile


Falcon, I see one serious problem with your position though, in that, even if like the OP, you disagreed with this sytem and personally really felt it was bad, you wouldn't be in a position to come onto this forum and agree with the posters here.

Whilst a lot of your points are valid, especially the rifter statement, the bit that's skipped it "A pilot who knows what they're doing in a Rifter with every single skill maxed" has a distinct advantage over the latter.

My main issue with the skill system is how it degrades those who've been around a long time, those players got a 'reward' for sticking with eve for so long, if anything, I would have liked to have seen the injectors have a final degregation, of say 150-200m SP, preventing them from being used to be able to exeed those like Dr Caymus, who put a lot and time and effort into what they do for 13+ years (and have paid CCP a lot of money doing so)
Alexis Nightwish
#150 - 2016-02-18 02:54:43 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
...
I've also been with EVE for 13 years, ironically my first reaction to skillpoint trading was negative too, but it was a knee-jerk reaction from a 13 year veteran of the game who thought a change so fundamental would destroy everything he loved about EVE.

I'm happy to say that I was wrong...
Who says you were? P2W hasn't been live long enough to see the metrics yet.

CCP Falcon wrote:
...and after I looked at the situation from what I consider to be a sensible point of view that came after my initial reaction, the rationale for it kind of fell into place and I now understand the system.
Brainwashing? Lobotomy? Blackmail?

CCP Falcon wrote:
There's a simple flaw with any "Pay To Win" argument against skill trading.

A pilot who knows what they're doing with a Rifter and a 2 skillpoints can end the world for a clueless player with 300 million skillpoints. Put the average driver in an F1 car and they're not going to have the first idea of how to drive it, despite having a driver's license.
In that isolated example, yes someone who knows how to play the game can beat someone who doesn't, regardless of SP. But that's not what we're arguing about. It's not about the new player acquiring a bunch of SP. It's about the vet who can, and it's about the type of players that P2W will attract. I know CCP enjoys ignoring opinions that are contrary to theirs but here's the relevant parts of the OP:

CCP approaches problems in one of two ways: nudge or cludge

EVE Online's "I win!" Button

Fixing bombs, not the bombers
Alexis Nightwish
#151 - 2016-02-18 02:55:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Alexis Nightwish
Reiisha wrote:
And the worst...

This new feature was supposed to be aimed at newbies mostly, however it's unaffordable for most of them. Worst of all, it's aimed at the kind of player who wants to get to max level, deplete the content, and then leaves because he doesn't find additional dungeons to run.

EVE is unique in the fact that player retention is extremely high. Where a lot of games manage 3, maybe 6 months, EVE might make it to 12 or more on average. This is part of what makes EVE's community so cohesive (albeit frequently frustrating). Those long term players were exactly what CCP was aiming for – Hell, what every MMO developer is aiming for, especially those who still use subscription models.

However, this new feature aims for the kind of player who plays a game for a few months and leaves to never be seen again, and at the same time chases away the long term, loyal players EVE has gained over the past decade. It's extremely saddening.
...
Now we come to the really bad consequences of this feature. The first thing that comes to mind is that it doesn't actually benefit newbies, like it was intended to. It benefits veterans almost exclusively, due to the high ingame cost of the items and the source of the skillpoints to begin with.
It's never been "Oh, so now a day old player (player, not character) can beat a 13 year old vet with daddy's credit card?" No, it's "Oh, so now a rich vet can spin up a perfectly skilled alt instantly, and at any time?" And if you can't see what problems arise from that, then I can't help you.


CCP Falcon wrote:
All skillpoints do is unlock the ability to fly a given hull with a given weapon, or utilize a given module to a particular end. Using the ship and modules is where the skill lies, and is the key to victory or failure. That's what defines you as an EVE player.
Now you're actually lying. There's this myth that the only thing that matters in EVE is RL skill at playing, and I'm pretty tired of hearing it. While it does play a large part, SP and gear (ship/module) make a huge difference. If SP and gear were inconsequencial, then why would anyone even care? But they're not. They matter. A lot.

CCP Falcon wrote:
Being able to trade skillpoints and freely respec your character changes very little. What it does is allow people to keep their gameplay fresh and try new things, or gives new players a leg up to be able to try new things faster if they choose to do so.
Still lying, unless it wasn't blackmail. First you cannot respec your character freely. There's a cost and a loss. Second, except for a few cases, you can train a lot of skills to III and experience new areas of gameplay without having to spend too much time. It's specialization that takes took time, and why shouldn't being very good at something take a long time?

CCP Falcon wrote:
That's my take on it anyway, as a 13 year vet of EVE.

Smile
Well my take as a 10 year vet of EVE is that you've made a horrible choice that you'll never recover from, all in the name of short term gains. Even if you reversed it tomorrow the damage is already done, and even hope wouldn't remain in the box if you closed it.

CCP approaches problems in one of two ways: nudge or cludge

EVE Online's "I win!" Button

Fixing bombs, not the bombers
Alexander McKeon
Perkone
Caldari State
#152 - 2016-02-18 05:00:08 UTC
Serious question for Falcon; has the possibility for shenanigans with skill injectors and the character bazaar been considered? Things like posting a sale thread, getting offers and then removing SP (while still keeping an accurate eve-board link in the OP) before accepting a purchase offer? Technically the buyer still has the ability to review the newly-reduced SP total before sending isk, but not everyone will catch that this has happened.

Character bazaar scams are of course forbidden, but a statement by CCP on exactly what the expectations are vis-a-vis skill injectors in that rules thread would be appreciated and could prevent abuse.
Amy Farrah FowIer
SKULL AND B0NES
#153 - 2016-02-18 06:45:20 UTC
I suspect that investors want to see return. The money will not end up in the game, but on the accounts of investors.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#154 - 2016-02-18 06:53:33 UTC
Alexander McKeon wrote:
Serious question for Falcon; has the possibility for shenanigans with skill injectors and the character bazaar been considered? Things like posting a sale thread, getting offers and then removing SP (while still keeping an accurate eve-board link in the OP) before accepting a purchase offer? Technically the buyer still has the ability to review the newly-reduced SP total before sending isk, but not everyone will catch that this has happened.

Character bazaar scams are of course forbidden, but a statement by CCP on exactly what the expectations are vis-a-vis skill injectors in that rules thread would be appreciated and could prevent abuse.


I suggest you try it out and report on it later.

Or use your brain and realize you are trying to lawyer your way around an already established rule.
Darkblad
Doomheim
#155 - 2016-02-18 07:22:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Darkblad
CCP Falcon wrote:
Mag's wrote:
his reasons for opposal
[...]
I respect what you're saying, and can see your angle, I just can't agree with it.
This sort of disagreement appears to apply to nearly all proposals made for a different way that skill trading should be implemented (the delays on "inject all axisting skill points" I menationed earlier and "respect you skills and respec your character's skill points, i.e. no DR if one would extract his own character's SP and inject them back in right after.

CCP asking for feedback on the first blog, the phrasing of "how important that feedback" will be (during the eve vegas keynote) and the actual changes done to this, as shown in the second blog suggest:

I see your points (on hundreds of pages) and I'm happy you stated them after I asked you to do right that.

But I won't change anything - except the impact of DR on the 50M and 80M brackets.







Being a player of a non english language I just feel like it's the end of September 2014 again. But that's another yet for some a still (de)pressing matter.

NPE-ISD-Übersetzt!
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#156 - 2016-02-18 07:55:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Ima Wreckyou
CCP Falcon wrote:

I've also been with EVE for 13 years, ironically my first reaction to skillpoint trading was negative too, but it was a knee-jerk reaction from a 13 year veteran of the game who thought a change so fundamental would destroy everything he loved about EVE.

I'm happy to say that I was wrong, and after I looked at the situation from what I consider to be a sensible point of view that came after my initial reaction, the rationale for it kind of fell into place and I now understand the system.

There's a simple flaw with any "Pay To Win" argument against skill trading.

Seriously, now you speak to the players about this. After 3 months of silence and not addressing a single concern of the playerbase in the two other threads! There are a lot more concerns and they had all nothing to do with p2w. But for some reason you published the devblog and then went completely dark on the issue. It was pretty obvious that you don't care what people have to say.

To come here now and tell us we should not worry because it's not p2w is like the other discussions did not even happen, it's like you did not pay attention at all and have no clue about the arguments on both sides. Do we really need to start over with a new threads and repeat all the same stuff we said in the couple of months since the initial devblog? Or can you simply say here and now that CCP does not care anyway, never intended this to be a discussion and that we actually all just waste our free time?

Evil RatKid
Ivanpaneriai
Doomheim
#157 - 2016-02-18 08:51:22 UTC
CCP became greedy bastards. I think they do not care about of this game anymore. SP injectors only available for billionares 10 years old characters. They do not care about new players. Nobody comes to this game, it will be dead soon. Only one thing why EVE is still has some online because there is no much other decent mmorpg.
Avvy
Doomheim
#158 - 2016-02-18 09:13:52 UTC
True Sight wrote:



My main issue with the skill system is how it degrades those who've been around a long time, those players got a 'reward' for sticking with eve for so long, if anything, I would have liked to have seen the injectors have a final degregation, of say 150-200m SP, preventing them from being used to be able to exeed those like Dr Caymus, who put a lot and time and effort into what they do for 13+ years (and have paid CCP a lot of money doing so)



I initially thought it was a bad thing not to have a hard cap.


Although, I now consider it a good thing. They've played the game a long time accumulated most like a lot of wealth they've also enjoyed having a huge advantage during that time. Worst case scenario they will now have more competition which may effect their earnings in-game from their little empires and I don't see that as a bad thing. Although it will take time for that competition to filter through.
Avvy
Doomheim
#159 - 2016-02-18 09:16:16 UTC
Amy Farrah FowIer wrote:
I suspect that investors want to see return. The money will not end up in the game, but on the accounts of investors.


Well if no investment is being directed at EVE, then you might as well say goodbye to citadels.

Some of you guys make me laugh with the things you come up with.
Avvy
Doomheim
#160 - 2016-02-18 09:26:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Avvy
Ivanpaneriai wrote:
CCP became greedy bastards. I think they do not care about of this game anymore. SP injectors only available for billionares 10 years old characters. They do not care about new players. Nobody comes to this game, it will be dead soon. Only one thing why EVE is still has some online because there is no much other decent mmorpg.


That might explain why I've seen a rise in the number of characters in my NPC corp.


Edit: that increase may just be local, as I've no way of checking what's happening to other starter corps.


But it's better than just predicting doom and gloom without actually knowing what effect the change will have in the long run. There will be other changes, maybe you would like to predict doom and gloom for those, you know get a head start.