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[March] Damage Control Tiericide

First post First post First post
Author
Code First
Omega Armament
#541 - 2016-02-17 09:37:21 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Links are not going away and you'd be insane to drop a DCU, outside of edge cases.

Let me repeat it again even if a DCU offered 0% hull resist it would remain mandatory for any real fleet.

Off grid links are going away if you care to check what stuff is on sisi, you will see that there are BPO for projected links.
DCU will be mandatory for T2/ T3 cruisers ships that need resist maxed out.
Battle Cruisers, Cruisers and smaller ships will get free bonus and a lowslot and 30 CPU.
T2 800mm plate need less CPU than a DCU and will provide bigger buff to armor EHP the same apply to all smaller ships and plates.


Fleet battleships will have possibility to fit 3 racial hardeners and ENAM.
CPU not power grid is issue on armor ships.
Megathron

Base stats :
powergrid Output
15500 MW
CPU Output
600 tf

Considering 3% implant for Power Grid:
15500 *3% = 465MW

3% implant for CPU:
600 *3% = 18tf


By dropping DCU and preserving 33% base structure resist you can easily fit an additional 1600mm armor plate using 3% implant and 800mm plate using 1% or even no implant.

3% CPU implant is still worthless as 18CPU allow to upgrade 1 module.
Now take into consideration that this stats are before considering skills.

I like this buff very much.
This is huge buff to all armor ships:
- they gain 33% resist on hull that makes DCU obsolete and provide important buffer
- 30CPU extra allow them to easily fit additional hardener or plate that will provide immense boost to armor EHP.
* 400mm for cruisers
* 800mm for battlecruisers
* 1600mm for battleships
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#542 - 2016-02-17 10:13:38 UTC
You know that bit where I said "real fleet"....people don't take 800mm plated BS/BC on those. LOL at that, quite frankly.

Sheesh.

I mean fair enough I didn't explicitly quantify "real fleet", but honestly I shouldn't need to.

ProTip: A real fleet involves logi, this in turn is married to resists.
Code First
Omega Armament
#543 - 2016-02-17 10:34:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Code First
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
You know that bit where I said "real fleet"....people don't take 800mm plated BS/BC on those. LOL at that, quite frankly.

Sheesh.

I mean fair enough I didn't explicitly quantify "real fleet", but honestly I shouldn't need to.

ProTip: A real fleet involves logi, this in turn is married to resists.


When you have 20 logi ships resist are important for small ships (T2/T3 cruisers) and effective buffer for battleships.

At lvl 5 single Tungsten plate give this ship 5k additional armor.
From armor buffer perspective this ( 5000 armor points before resists ) will give you more than 15% flat bonus from DCU.

If you have enough logistic ships bigger buffer is more important than final resist to rep amount ratio.
Remote armor reps boost your armor after the logistic ships lock you and module cycles.
You need to survive long enough to get them.

ProTip: When you have enough logi 33% structure buffer and extra 5000 armor on battleship before resist will keep you alive longer than DCU. If enemy is using alpha doctrine your chances are even bigger.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#544 - 2016-02-17 12:05:45 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Code First wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
You know that bit where I said "real fleet"....people don't take 800mm plated BS/BC on those. LOL at that, quite frankly.

Sheesh.

I mean fair enough I didn't explicitly quantify "real fleet", but honestly I shouldn't need to.

ProTip: A real fleet involves logi, this in turn is married to resists.


When you have 20 logi ships resist are important for small ships (T2/T3 cruisers) and effective buffer for battleships.

At lvl 5 single Tungsten plate give this ship 5k additional armor.
From armor buffer perspective this ( 5000 armor points before resists ) will give you more than 15% flat bonus from DCU.

If you have enough logistic ships bigger buffer is more important than final resist to rep amount ratio.
Remote armor reps boost your armor after the logistic ships lock you and module cycles.
You need to survive long enough to get them.

ProTip: When you have enough logi 33% structure buffer and extra 5000 armor on battleship before resist will keep you alive longer than DCU. If enemy is using alpha doctrine your chances are even bigger.


Looking at my old baltec fleet mega if you go without the dcu you lose the 15% resists to shields and the 40% bonus to structure (with the new mods). To replace this now free slot with a t2 Energized Adaptive plating will cost 6 more CPU which I don't have going spare. Which means I need to fit a prototype which saves me cpu (only 24 cpu as opposed to the current 30 for the DCU) but that only nets me the 15% to armour resists.

The 33% more structure doesn't make up for the loss, Im better off still with the DCU as it provides more buffer than the Energized plating to the tune of roughly 15-20k ehp.
Code First
Omega Armament
#545 - 2016-02-17 13:50:28 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

Looking at my old baltec fleet mega if you go without the dcu you lose the 15% resists to shields and the 40% bonus to structure (with the new mods). To replace this now free slot with a t2 Energized Adaptive plating will cost 6 more CPU which I don't have going spare. Which means I need to fit a prototype which saves me cpu (only 24 cpu as opposed to the current 30 for the DCU) but that only nets me the 15% to armour resists.

The 33% more structure doesn't make up for the loss, Im better off still with the DCU as it provides more buffer than the Energized plating to the tune of roughly 15-20k ehp.

Don't know how tight your fit was in case of power grid.
How this numbers will look like if you put there 1600mm plate instead of another resist, if you lack grid what implant you need to use.

On a battleship 3% power grid implant give enough grid for a 1600 plate, but 3% implant to CPU offer around 20 CPU - not enough to fit any thing.
1600mm plate provide 5k of raw armor before considering resist.
From what i checked buff is huge, as 33% structure resist combined with 5000 of additional armor points give very big bonus to EHP.
Big part of this EHP boost is moved from structure to armor, and thank to this is affected by armor resists.

DCU shield resist for armor battleships is not important after first shoots.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#546 - 2016-02-17 14:27:49 UTC
Just an FYI baltec, but a 'refuge' anm provides 15.36% resists for no cpu cost and is usually cheaper on the market too.

At least until tieracide i guess...

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#547 - 2016-02-17 15:41:11 UTC
Code First wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

Looking at my old baltec fleet mega if you go without the dcu you lose the 15% resists to shields and the 40% bonus to structure (with the new mods). To replace this now free slot with a t2 Energized Adaptive plating will cost 6 more CPU which I don't have going spare. Which means I need to fit a prototype which saves me cpu (only 24 cpu as opposed to the current 30 for the DCU) but that only nets me the 15% to armour resists.

The 33% more structure doesn't make up for the loss, Im better off still with the DCU as it provides more buffer than the Energized plating to the tune of roughly 15-20k ehp.

Don't know how tight your fit was in case of power grid.
How this numbers will look like if you put there 1600mm plate instead of another resist, if you lack grid what implant you need to use.

On a battleship 3% power grid implant give enough grid for a 1600 plate, but 3% implant to CPU offer around 20 CPU - not enough to fit any thing.
1600mm plate provide 5k of raw armor before considering resist.
From what i checked buff is huge, as 33% structure resist combined with 5000 of additional armor points give very big bonus to EHP.
Big part of this EHP boost is moved from structure to armor, and thank to this is affected by armor resists.

DCU shield resist for armor battleships is not important after first shoots.


You still have that 40% bonus to structure resists. Buffer fits I honestly cant see giving up the DCU. Active tank I could see going with something else but the DCU is still a very powerful mod on nearly all of my fits.
Chill'4
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#548 - 2016-02-17 16:57:29 UTC
I predict the reactive armor hardener getting more use, one RAH with 1/2 EANM's will be a nice combo as long as you have the cap.

Damage Control is still good and will continue to be used often.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#549 - 2016-02-17 17:24:07 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Just an FYI baltec, but a 'refuge' anm provides 15.36% resists for no cpu cost and is usually cheaper on the market too.

At least until tieracide i guess...


DCU don't suffer from stacking penaltiesBlink
Vulfen
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#550 - 2016-02-17 17:31:11 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Links are not going away and you'd be insane to drop a DCU, outside of edge cases.

Let me repeat it again even if a DCU offered 0% hull resist it would remain mandatory for any real fleet.


Not in the case of a T3 Fleet.

Certain full tank T3 ships especially lowsec pimp fits will greatly benefit from not having to fit a DCU, and instead putting on another adaptive or energised adaptive.
This is mainly because their buffer is so high compared to the structure.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#551 - 2016-02-17 17:57:13 UTC
Vulfen wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Links are not going away and you'd be insane to drop a DCU, outside of edge cases.

Let me repeat it again even if a DCU offered 0% hull resist it would remain mandatory for any real fleet.


Not in the case of a T3 Fleet.

Certain full tank T3 ships especially lowsec pimp fits will greatly benefit from not having to fit a DCU, and instead putting on another adaptive or energised adaptive.
This is mainly because their buffer is so high compared to the structure.


This is pretty important. The actual strenght of a DCU really change a lot depending on how much of your raw HP are in structure. Once you add extenders and plates to a ship, the ratio tend to get very biased toward the usual racial tanking buffer layer and away from structure.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#552 - 2016-02-17 18:21:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Morrigan LeSante
Vulfen wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Links are not going away and you'd be insane to drop a DCU, outside of edge cases.

Let me repeat it again even if a DCU offered 0% hull resist it would remain mandatory for any real fleet.


Not in the case of a T3 Fleet.

Certain full tank T3 ships especially lowsec pimp fits will greatly benefit from not having to fit a DCU, and instead putting on another adaptive or energised adaptive.
This is mainly because their buffer is so high compared to the structure.



Can you post some examples (of a fit where you'll drop a DCU for a hardener)? Because unless I'm missing something the buffer level is irrelevant.

Genuinely interested.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#553 - 2016-02-18 04:06:48 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

You still have that 40% bonus to structure resists. Buffer fits I honestly cant see giving up the DCU. Active tank I could see going with something else but the DCU is still a very powerful mod on nearly all of my fits.

You are also neglecting the armour skills in your maths which push those resist modules higher for armour.
But as long as DCU gives armour & shield resist bonuses that don't stack you are quite right that it will remain a virtually compulsory module in nearly every fit.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#554 - 2016-02-18 06:53:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
WTF is the point of Tiericide?

I thought it was to fix what was broken.

But lets look at this change. The "problem" is that for most fits fitting a damage control is a necessity. So the solution:

1. Build part of the benefits of fitting a DC into the hull of not only those ships that can fit a DC, but also those ships that cannot because...wreck HP went up. If you are saying Whisky Tango Foxtrot you are not alone.

2. There appears to be some sort of fetish with the status quo. If we nerf DCs...oh noes!!! people's fits will have lower EHP....so build in the DC, partially, into every hull to get us "close" back to where we started.

3. The DC still looks like a must fit module in many cases.

It is at this point one has to ask...what the heck have people been smoking?

Edit:

Aside from burn events I generally do not engage in freighter ganking. But after this I think I will be ganking as much as I can simply because of CCP Fozzie's stupid logic based on a completely ****-poor analogy that even he admits was stupid beyond belief.

Oh and yeah, I hope sincerely and honestly hope that the average time a freighter is spent being bumped goes to 3 even 4 hours because of this becuase anti-ganking people are stupid as rocks.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#555 - 2016-02-18 06:57:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
CCP Fozzie wrote:

This will result in a significant EHP buff to ships that can't or don't fit Damage Controls, but most of those already have very low hull hitpoints.


Whisky Tango Foxtrot?

Freighters and Jump Freighters are not low on hull HP. The vast bulk of the HP for those ships is in hull.

Was this kind of completely untrue statement made in jest or was somebody using some powerful mind altering substances?

Thorax: 31.7% of EHP is hull
Caracal: 25.3% of EHP is hull
Revelation: 29.1% of EHP is hull
Thanatos: 31.7% of EHP is hull

Obelisk: 58.3% of EHP is hull.
Charon: 45.9% of EHP is hull.
Fenrir: 39.7% of EHP is hull.
Providence: 55% of EHP is hull.

So, I can only conclude the CCP Fozzie is...well lying.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Pirmera Yumimura
Doomheim
#556 - 2016-02-18 08:54:19 UTC
Good Change, for us Frighter Pilots (not AFK like you do it). I like it where both Party (Gangers and Freighters) need to put up an equivalent ISK sum on the field. Tears of joy from me and Tears of Whine from the "Professional Legal no Risk no Skill Gankers".

Keep u the good Work
Andrew Indy
Cleaning Crew
#557 - 2016-02-18 08:57:00 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:

Can you post some examples (of a fit where you'll drop a DCU for a hardener)? Because unless I'm missing something the buffer level is irrelevant.

Genuinely interested.


There are several Cruisers sized ships that get more EHP along with better resists by not fitting a DCU. Not to mention that most Active Tank Armor ships benefit from more resists over a DCU (assuming you want at least 1 or 2 DPS mods)

Here is a Legion I through together.

239K EHP , If you drop the DCU for a EM hardener you get 244K. This gap gets bigger when you add fleet boosts , Slaves, Overheating and Pimp.

[Legion, Test]
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Armor Thermal Hardener II
Damage Control II
1600mm Steel Plates II
1600mm Steel Plates II

Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II

Legion Defensive - Augmented Plating
Legion Electronics - Tactical Targeting Network
Legion Engineering - Power Core Multiplier
Legion Offensive - Liquid Crystal Magnifiers
Legion Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst


This fit has 284K EHP with Heat, 258K with a DCU and one EM hardener removed.

[Impel, Test]
Armor EM Hardener II
Armor EM Hardener II
Armor Thermal Hardener II
Armor Thermal Hardener II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
800mm Steel Plates II


Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II

This fit has 97K EHP with a EM hardener and 98k with a DCU (DCU2 is 1% better) , but you gain 7K EHP if you are overheating over a DCU2. Not to mention you resists are way better for Logi. Once you add pimp and slaves the EM hardener is better in every way.

[Sacrilege, Test]
Damage Control II
Armor Thermal Hardener II
1600mm Steel Plates II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II

Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II




Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#558 - 2016-02-18 09:47:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Morrigan LeSante
With links that first legion has more EHP with the DC than without (315647 vs 312295).

And if you fit it thusly, it is better than all:

[Legion, Test]
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Damage Control II
Armor Thermal Hardener II
Armor EM Hardener II
1600mm Steel Plates II
1600mm Steel Plates II

[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]

[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]

Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II

Legion Defensive - Augmented Plating
Legion Electronics - Tactical Targeting Network
Legion Engineering - Power Core Multiplier
Legion Offensive - Liquid Crystal Magnifiers
Legion Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst

(eos links fednavy mindlink)


332531 EHP, 319080 in armor alone.


ed: Sac has similar results, 128389 EHP with 120000 armo ehp moving to 135093 EHP and 126705 armor EHP. I didnt check the impel.
Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
#559 - 2016-02-21 20:42:08 UTC
Okay, so I just started reading this today, so these changes haven't had time to sink in for me, but why do freighters need this?

My first thought is that many other ships that CAN use a DC will loose less for not using one but not be any (or at least much) better off with one come 9 March, but since freighters CANNOT even use a DC, they are getting an unneeded buff to their structure. Correct me if I'm wrong, and if I'm not, why are we doing that to freighters?

I'm a freighter owner myself, more likely to be a victim of ganking sooner than be a ganker, and even I'm calling this a slap in gankers' faces. I know they buffed wreck hp, but this isn't quite an even trade. I must have missed something.

"Tomahawks?"

"----in' A, right?"

"Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each."

"----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."

elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#560 - 2016-02-21 21:04:50 UTC
Sobaan Tali wrote:
Okay, so I just started reading this today, so these changes haven't had time to sink in for me, but why do freighters need this?

My first thought is that many other ships that CAN use a DC will loose less for not using one but not be any (or at least much) better off with one come 9 March, but since freighters CANNOT even use a DC, they are getting an unneeded buff to their structure. Correct me if I'm wrong, and if I'm not, why are we doing that to freighters?

I'm a freighter owner myself, more likely to be a victim of ganking sooner than be a ganker, and even I'm calling this a slap in gankers' faces. I know they buffed wreck hp, but this isn't quite an even trade. I must have missed something.


Freighters are not the only ships in New Eden.

Btw, remove bulkheads or restrict em for freighters only. Meta fixed.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

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