These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Eve devalued
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#201 - 2016-02-16 19:26:00 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
So let me ask you a question. Do you think that after sp trading has been around for a while, that more peopel will do the above, or skill trading?

Because that's the whole point. CCP took something that was possible but NOT widley used and turned it into something that IS widely used. Like all things, a little bit of something might be ok where as a lot of it might be bad.

PLEX and the Character Bazaar were (borderline) ok. SP trading isn't, because it takes something (SP) that could only be converted into in game wealth via a convoluted process and streamlined it. Now you have people who would have NEVER sold a toon stipping those toons of now valuable SP, creating another avenue of wealth.
As I understand we once only had GTCs on the forums. We now have PLEX in game. If that's wrong please correct me, but if not how is that any different. And if PLEX is still ok and injectors are still not ok, why is wealth generation from subbing not ok, but wealth generation from just cash is?

Further how does it being more common actually break it?
stg slate
State War Academy
Caldari State
#202 - 2016-02-16 19:28:47 UTC
David Semris wrote:
David Semris wrote:
My secondary account character is being biomassed, my main will follow later this week.

I see no point in playing anymore, I have invested (real life money) in injectors and maxed out last skills I have ever wanted / planned to have. I have had around 55 billions ISKs in wallet and all the ships I need/want. More importantly I can buy everything for real life money, there is simply no point in doing anything anymore. But people will still not call it pay to win (just because you can beat other player in pvp because you are personally better skilled player doesn´t change the fact you can now buy basically anything in this game for real life money, you know...).

So at the moment I need to sell rest of my items and I have already bought like 45 PLEX (hopefully I can get much higher when I sell the 30 mils skill points I can) I will distribute between my friends before I leave (or I could take them to shuttle for a fly Lol). At least they can stop farming for a while (farming to plex account) and actually have some fun.

Have fun guys o7


Aaaand it was done, at the end 66 PLEXes were divided between friends, biomass time. Big smile

Farewell o7


Be well, watch out IRL is scarey and I haerd there are wolfs
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#203 - 2016-02-16 19:38:32 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:


You would pretty much have the same effect as CCP would have if they forgo going ahead with a proven business model by the big player in the industry. How can you even try to argue they should not follow what EA, Blizz and co. do when you are too selfish to give yourself as an example of righteous action in face of apparently broken and evil new possibility?


I'm playing a video game. I real life I do exactly that (ie not making the money my siblings do from the family businesses I'm actually entitled to, I'm a lowly public servant).

The problem with trying to emulate others is that those others made games with that kind of money making in mind. CCP is trying to shoe-horn EVE (a damn near contentless sandbox game) into a mainstream money maker and it won't work (because pay to progress only works if there is something to progress TO).
You mention EA and Blizz, how many game companies don't exist now. How many tried to Do an EA or Blizz routine and failed?


Quote:

You would have no effect? Well so does CCP and that's why they will pursue those change because they are a business just like your alt group are a "business" by themselves. You run it to turn a profit in ISK to pay for your gametime or anyone else for that matter. You are "walking the miles in their shoes" right now and decided to go as they did instead of following your righteous way of not succumbing to the attraction of revenue in the name of a more "pure" environment.


You are wrong (and you're usually better than that). My using what CCP gives me in a video game, and CCP turning it's back on it's proven way of doing business to gamble on the hopes that 'new players' empowered by cash bought skill-points will stay (or a few whales will spend a lot of cash before leaving) are 2 different things.

You don't realize it, but of the two of us, I'm the one arguing for the continuation of EVE Online and CCP (by CCP learning the lessons of the past, which they haven't done as evidenced by SP trading). What CCP is actually doing is reckless. The difference between now and monocle-gate is that people are so used to being juiced by corporations now they don't recognize it when it's happening.
Avvy
Doomheim
#204 - 2016-02-16 19:43:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Avvy
Jenn aSide wrote:



You don't realize it, but of the two of us, I'm the one arguing for the continuation of EVE Online and CCP (by CCP learning the lessons of the past, which they haven't done as evidenced by SP trading). What CCP is actually doing is reckless. The difference between now and monocle-gate is that people are so used to being juiced by corporations now they don't recognize it when it's happening.



So what you are saying is that you know better than those involved at CCP.

Great!

Maybe they should hire you.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#205 - 2016-02-16 19:56:28 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
So let me ask you a question. Do you think that after sp trading has been around for a while, that more peopel will do the above, or skill trading?

Because that's the whole point. CCP took something that was possible but NOT widley used and turned it into something that IS widely used. Like all things, a little bit of something might be ok where as a lot of it might be bad.

PLEX and the Character Bazaar were (borderline) ok. SP trading isn't, because it takes something (SP) that could only be converted into in game wealth via a convoluted process and streamlined it. Now you have people who would have NEVER sold a toon stipping those toons of now valuable SP, creating another avenue of wealth.
As I understand we once only had GTCs on the forums. We now have PLEX in game. If that's wrong please correct me, but if not how is that any different. And if PLEX is still ok and injectors are still not ok, why is wealth generation from subbing not ok, but wealth generation from just cash is?

Further how does it being more common actually break it?


PLEx streamlined the GTC process some, sure. But plex was also totally destroyed when you used it. SP is only partially destroyed when used by higher SP characters. AND, unlike PLEX, SP is generated not when someone buys an extractor, but passively, all the time if you want.

EVE in November 2008 was a game where rewards and isk and wealth where harder to come by. No re spawning null sec anoms, no incursions, lvl 5 missions were still newish etc. In that landscape it was ok to formalize GTC into PLEX.

8 years later (after 7 years of 25-35 trillion isk per month injections of raw isk not counting materials and modules and tings like that awful moon goo), EVE is a place that just doesn't need new wealth faucets IMO. Especially not an easily renewable one. That's what SP trading does, it takes something someone valuable (SP, which could be indirectly traded in the char bazaar) and turns it into yet another respawning thing (like null anoms).

And that thing is going to exacerbate some structural problems New Eden already has, It potentially lowers to SP gap between new and old (which is worthless because real experience, not SP is king), while widening the real gap, the one between the rich (that can trough ships at stuff all day) and the in game poor who will have to use real cash more than ever.

Someone ask me if skill trading would be ok if it was free. The most ardent anti-SP trading people will disagree, but I would have been fine with it (with proper balancing restrictions).
stg slate
State War Academy
Caldari State
#206 - 2016-02-16 19:58:25 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:

You are wrong (and you're usually better than that). My using what CCP gives me in a video game, and CCP turning it's back on it's proven way of doing business to gamble on the hopes that 'new players' empowered by cash bought skill-points will stay (or a few whales will spend a lot of cash before leaving) are 2 different things.

You don't realize it, but of the two of us, I'm the one arguing for the continuation of EVE Online and CCP (by CCP learning the lessons of the past, which they haven't done as evidenced by SP trading). What CCP is actually doing is reckless. The difference between now and monocle-gate is that people are so used to being juiced by corporations now they don't recognize it when it's happening.


You should probably give up the pubic servant thingy and go get hired to run a video game, you seem to feel you know better than a team of people who are hired to spend every day managing one. Not just that, but you act like completely obvious to you and should be to everyone.

Prodigy!
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#207 - 2016-02-16 19:58:37 UTC
Avvy wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:



You don't realize it, but of the two of us, I'm the one arguing for the continuation of EVE Online and CCP (by CCP learning the lessons of the past, which they haven't done as evidenced by SP trading). What CCP is actually doing is reckless. The difference between now and monocle-gate is that people are so used to being juiced by corporations now they don't recognize it when it's happening.



So what you are saying is that you know better than those involved at CCP.

Great!

Maybe they should hire you.


If I'm wrong, no one losses, not even CCP.

If I'm right? What do you think happens then? You were right when you said life can't teach you anything new, you display no wisdom whatsoever and thus don't understand the idea of erring on the side of caution. Sure, be mad at me if you like, but I'm not your problem.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#208 - 2016-02-16 20:02:35 UTC
stg slate wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:

You are wrong (and you're usually better than that). My using what CCP gives me in a video game, and CCP turning it's back on it's proven way of doing business to gamble on the hopes that 'new players' empowered by cash bought skill-points will stay (or a few whales will spend a lot of cash before leaving) are 2 different things.

You don't realize it, but of the two of us, I'm the one arguing for the continuation of EVE Online and CCP (by CCP learning the lessons of the past, which they haven't done as evidenced by SP trading). What CCP is actually doing is reckless. The difference between now and monocle-gate is that people are so used to being juiced by corporations now they don't recognize it when it's happening.


You should probably give up the pubic servant thingy and go get hired to run a video game, you seem to feel you know better than a team of people who are hired to spend every day managing one. Not just that, but you act like completely obvious to you and should be to everyone.

Prodigy!


I accept your surrender. You know that's what you just did right? They only time one gets these kinds of replies is when a poster knows what your saying makes sense and they don't want to admit it..

Like I told the other guy who just surrendered, if I'm wrong about the bad affects that will reveal themselves in the coming months and years, well, good, no harm. But if I'm right, CCP would have hurt a great video game and made another avoidable mistake when they didn't have to.

That even wouldn't be the end of the world (we are talking about a game), it would still be a damn shame.
stg slate
State War Academy
Caldari State
#209 - 2016-02-16 20:06:34 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:


I accept your surrender. You know that's what you just did right? They only time one gets these kinds of replies is when a poster knows what your saying makes sense and they don't want to admit it..



No, I am openly mocking you because you are coming off as a know-it-all; you're better than everyone because you work a crappy job as a public servant(by choice of course!), you've attempted to psychoanalyze peoples responses as an armchair psychologist, and now you are a master at game marketing and business plans for MMOs.

It is amusing to me that you take ridicule as a sign of winning, you must win a lot of arguments on the internets Big smile
Avvy
Doomheim
#210 - 2016-02-16 20:08:18 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Avvy wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:



You don't realize it, but of the two of us, I'm the one arguing for the continuation of EVE Online and CCP (by CCP learning the lessons of the past, which they haven't done as evidenced by SP trading). What CCP is actually doing is reckless. The difference between now and monocle-gate is that people are so used to being juiced by corporations now they don't recognize it when it's happening.



So what you are saying is that you know better than those involved at CCP.

Great!

Maybe they should hire you.


If I'm wrong, no one losses, not even CCP.

If I'm right? What do you think happens then? You were right when you said life can't teach you anything new, you display no wisdom whatsoever and thus don't understand the idea of erring on the side of caution. Sure, be mad at me if you like, but I'm not your problem.


Not at all, one thing I find important and that is to keep an open mind and I do. Doesn't mean I'll change it at the drop of a hat. But if a good argument shows me the error of my ways I'm happy to take that on-board. It's just that I've not seen one yet.

As for 'I doubt life can teach me anything new', I was referring to life lessons not Quantum theory.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#211 - 2016-02-16 20:16:23 UTC
stg slate wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:


I accept your surrender. You know that's what you just did right? They only time one gets these kinds of replies is when a poster knows what your saying makes sense and they don't want to admit it..



No, I am openly mocking you because you are coming off as a know-it-all; you're better than everyone because you work a crappy job as a public servant(by choice of course!), you've attempted to psychoanalyze peoples responses as an armchair psychologist, and now you are a master at game marketing and business plans for MMOs.

It is amusing to me that you take ridicule as a sign of winning, you must win a lot of arguments on the internets Big smile




I've claimed to be master of nothing, that's just you projecting son. I am saying that I think the maker of the game i liek is making some mistakes, and while to err is human, making avoidable mistakes is stupid, and making avoidable mistakes chasing new money is worse still.

If CCP thought skill trading was what the game (rather than their bottom line) needed, they could have made skill injectors and extractors items that drop from npcs and appear in lp stores. They could give them to new players who subscribe after trial as a 'welcome to new eden' gift. They could have done a lot of things, but they do the thing that monetizes SP above and beyond what the char bazaar did, and in a way that ends up as another major wealth faucet, and one that helps vets and will actually end up hurting new players.

I'm real sorry if you don't like me pointing these things out. But that's your problem.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#212 - 2016-02-16 20:20:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Frostys Virpio
Jenn aSide wrote:


You are wrong (and you're usually better than that). My using what CCP gives me in a video game, and CCP turning it's back on it's proven way of doing business to gamble on the hopes that 'new players' empowered by cash bought skill-points will stay (or a few whales will spend a lot of cash before leaving) are 2 different things.

You don't realize it, but of the two of us, I'm the one arguing for the continuation of EVE Online and CCP (by CCP learning the lessons of the past, which they haven't done as evidenced by SP trading). What CCP is actually doing is reckless. The difference between now and monocle-gate is that people are so used to being juiced by corporations now they don't recognize it when it's happening.


Keep on preaching without acting. You sure are teaching people a lesson by acting that way.

Abusing the system is bad but you abuse it just like the others. You can't expect to change people's mind over something when you admit to doing what you call wrong yourself.

The fact that some devs failed after entering the micro transaction ring does not mean CCP will fail just il some being successful does not mean they will succeed. The only thing we can say for sure is that it CAN work if you do it the right way. It's of course important to understand what "the right way" mean. The right way is right from the business standpoint. EA is making a killing out of it because they are doing it "the right way". The games that failed did it wrong. EA had a proven business model before going to DLC and other stuff like that and adding it to their market was "turning it's back" to it's usual business model. Doing so is a risk for anyone who tries it. You are thinking CCP will fail and possibly fall because of it. It's a legitimate point of view but it does not make it the right one just like I could also be wrong in thinking the risk will pay off.

Whoever's money is at stake is the one taking the real risk just like EA was when they started it, like blizzard started doing it and any other failed company when they tried it.

Jenn aSide wrote:


Like I told the other guy who just surrendered, if I'm wrong about the bad affects that will reveal themselves in the coming months and years, well, good, no harm. But if I'm right, CCP would have hurt a great video game and made another avoidable mistake when they didn't have to.




Common now. If CCP was to follow the idea of this, we would never get any iteration on anything no matter how ****** it is because it might have a negative impact. Get real, any change CCP makes to the game is to make it better because said better game will result in more revenue.
Josef Djugashvilis
#213 - 2016-02-16 20:25:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Josef Djugashvilis
For much of the time that I have been aware of Jenn a Side, he and I have been on opposite sides of just about everything to do with the game.

For us to have the same views on cash for skills, is indicative of how how bad an idea it is.

Furthermore, if CCP manage to get away with it, what next to nickle and dime us - the infamous gold ammo?

This is not a signature.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#214 - 2016-02-16 20:28:17 UTC
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
For much of the time that I have been aware of Jenn a Side, he and I have been on opposite sides of just about everything to do with the game.

For us to have the same views on cash for skills, is indicative of how how bad an idea it is.

Furthermore, if CCP mange to get away with it, what next to nickle and dime us - the infamous gold ammo?


What if you were both wrong on this case instead of both right? Is there anything that makes this completely impossible?
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#215 - 2016-02-16 20:28:36 UTC
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
For much of the time that I have been aware of Jenn a Side, he and I have been on opposite sides of just about everything to do with the game.

For us to have the same views on cash for skills, is indicative of how how bad an idea it is.

Furthermore, if CCP mange to get away with it, what next to nickle and dime us - the infamous gold ammo?


I just realized that Josef Djugashvilis and I are on the same side. This must mean I was wrong and I for one now fully welcome our new SP injected Overlords!.

Twisted

Just kidding, SP trading still sucks. Now who here wants to buy some of my skill points, I'm feeling like whelping a Nyx tonight? Pirate
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#216 - 2016-02-16 23:18:04 UTC
You are not really going to see the true effects of SP trading until large alliances with ISK to burn (or members with real life deep pockets) can suddenly take on a new meta and have entire fleets retrained into a new doctrine ship the same week it is released.
Osmonde Jr
Mission Running Slaves
#217 - 2016-02-17 01:34:00 UTC
quote=David Semris]
Osmonde Jr wrote:
It really has no effect and the chances of new players dropping $600 (costs $300 if you already have alts) into a brand new game unless they have friends already in it is still pretty slim. Think a lot of the tears are from being unable to afford it when they first played the game is my guess Lol.


To use your numbers...

Boosting character to decent SPs in EVE online - 600 USD
Buying maxed out character in WoW - 60 USD

(Flying in virtual spaceship - priceless! The commercial just came to my mind... Lol)

Something went awry. Lol[/quote]

Yea it is a bit pricey, which is why I fail to understand where they keep getting this butt hurt of new players going to 500 mill sp as most typical whales spend what I do.



Jenn aSide wrote:
Osmonde Jr wrote:
Think a lot of the tears are from being unable to afford it when they first played the game is my guess Lol.


Some of us wanted our gameplay to mean something (in the context of the game of course). Personally, I wouldn't have started playing EVE if it offered this kind of "short cut for cash" option in 2007, which is why i don't start new games that do that now.

They introduced PLEX a year after I started playing and that was a stretch but I could understand needing to counter illegal RMT, but SP trading doesn't combat any ills (it stands to make them worse as the rich players get richer off the backs of new players).


Well that is you problem that your only game play in Eve to have "meaning" is no different then a wow player or Rift player which is your characters sp you accumulated or the isk. Me it is the impact I make on other players whether I decide to help them or most of the time just **** in their Cheerios for the Lol.

Also amusing you believe that plex combats isk trading when isk purchases are still 100x cheaper. No what combat isk trading is when CCP stop being lazy and scorch earth all the botting accounts and banning players that sell them and punishing buyers (see unholy rage). But of course for a long term veteran such as yourself you would have known that Big smile.

Anyway please, continue with the tears as I enjoy people who have nothing in life other then Eve to rage at the studio believing that it will force them to rescind all sp trading.

Also another bump as I know there are more then this person that is butt hurt over these changes, please let out the emotion, my shoulder is available P.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#218 - 2016-02-17 05:09:17 UTC
Malcanis's Law: "Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of ‘new players’, that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players."
Mistah Ewedynao
Ice Axe Psycho Killers
#219 - 2016-02-19 04:57:09 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:


Pages of Goonish drivel.


All I can say is that maybe Mittens/James315/latest churned ganker alt should create some new content and get CCP to come up with a new skill.

Literate Forum Posting.

I realize it may slow you down into skilling into a Talos and get in on those big ganks...you know a defenseless Anshar or Bowhead. We know you won't attack a freakin Obelisk piloted by someone bright enough to have slaves and armor resists.

You could get a skill injector and become a literate forum poster overnight!

Kidding aside, This is just another REALLY dumb move by CCP. Almost as dumb as believing Goons advice on how things in the game should work. Almost...

Free to play coming up for noobs....then it's goodbye eve.

Nerf Goons

Nuke em from orbit....it's the only way to be sure.
Crystal Liche
ACME Mineral and Gas
#220 - 2016-02-19 16:01:38 UTC
Avvy wrote:
pajedas wrote:
RMT is BAD!!!

Really, the only difference is that CCP wants to corner the market.

They are the very essence of RMT now.



They're just getting in tune with other companies.

At least they kept it in the player market.


Other companies don't even try to pretend they have (had) a sandbox.