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First of all, thanks for taking the time to read my previous posts and look into them as you did.

Second, yes, this is a huge help. It's not just because it still leaves a decent amount of production available in hisec without importing stront from elsewhere, but also because it doesn't make strontium a bottleneck to production in all areas of space; nullsec production will still be limited by the amount of racial isotopes there, meaning that there'll either be surplus strontium exported to hisec or else surplus isotopes from hisec exported to nullsec to enable further production. Either way, the additional ice products that hisec produces but cannot turn into fuel due to lack of Strontium will still have demand on the market along with demand for strontium over-produced in nullsec.

Will any changes be made to POS to account for the stront volume change? Without changes max reinforce duration increases by 50%.

Will fuel block size change? If yes, will any changes be made to POS to account for the change?

Hey CCP! Do you think it would be possible to send out notifications to docked guests in the new structures? Say if the corp who owns the citadel gets war decced they could send out a notification to all the guests docked that the structure could get blasted. To maybe give people a chance to undock their things before the citadel blows up?

Killmarks for citadels. Make it so.

Based on citadel talk, it seems structures will take quite a bit of additional materials and cost to build most POS-like structures.
Seems like we may see quite a drop in the number of structures deployed at least initially. Especially depending on whether CCP limits or provides additional means of recovering materials or costs from old structures.


So if I understand the current fuzzy transition concepts correctly, the transition from existing POS and structures starts with...

(1) for each category of new structure (e.g.citadels first) the existing structures being replaced will remain functional for a limited window if already deployed and online. Old deployments can be taken offline and repackaged. But no new deployments can be made.

(1a) Less clear - towers cannot be turned on once in the offline state??? Problem for POS with more storage than power etc.

(1b) At the end of the transition window (weeks or months) any structures left in deployed state are destroyed without
compensation to owners?

(Be way more cool if this destruction occurred randomly as system-wide visible fireworks display over next 24 hours -
I suspect lots of abandon small stations in hi sec)

I favor any structure contents distributed in blue jetcans. But for reasons of timezones, I again favor actual destruction
be distributed over the day with all structures locked in offline invulnerable state until randomly exploded..


(2) automatic conversion of existing POS and structures into materials as soon as they are repackaged?
so some of existing investment can be used to kick start building new cidatels etc.

Or is CCP just going to stick with 53% reprocessing as originally proposed?
If recycling is the actual method...does that opportunity expire on the same day as deployed structures?
I have heard CCP has occasionally done that in the past. then just destroyed old items not yet recycled at the end.



Eagerly awaiting clarification.

They dont need to nerf anything.

While we are at it, I will post my entire BPO rant here as well


kennethfeld [8:19 AM]
as far as copy number, 7 is meaningless per se. During Crius we complained about the number of runs of cap bpo to greyscale and he finally agreed 5 was horrid. WE mainly browbeat him for a QOL change

[8:20]
he finally settled on 40 because that was roughly a week of build with no bonus

[8:20]
IF and this ia a GIANT if we keep the structure BPO's at rank 200 - then 10 runs is 6D 19H

[8:21]
I think they should be rank 60 with the rest of the capital comp BPO's and if they should be rank 60, then they should be 40 runs

[8:22]
the outposts themselves are 600 - which is the same as titans

[8:23]
the T1 upgrades are rank 200, tier 2 upgrades are rank 400 and T3 upgrades are rank 600

[8:23]
this is in line with capitals (dreads and carriers) at rank 200 as well

[8:24]
I still, for the life of me can't understand why the structure BPO's need to be rank 200 instead of 60

[8:24]
changing it from rank 200 to 60 doesn't affect price or input (edited)

[8:25]
it only affects research time, build time and copy time

[8:25]
the BPO's are cheap as hell compared to capital comp BPO's 200 mil vs 3.4 bil for some of the cap comps

[8:26]
but the research time is incredibly onerous and will reward those of us who have had them for a while and make the barrier for entry into building citadels extremely high

[8:27]
hmm, on second though, wait 6 months until prices have stabilized and I have made a few trillion before you change the BPO ranks LOL :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

kennethfeld [8:38 AM]
Also, if I am not mistaken, the upgrade BPO's never got put in the game......they are in the big dump, but not sure they are actually seeded on TQ despite begging Greyscale


Structure BPO's being rank 200 is incredibly onerous, and just no reason. If you feel they need to be 200 for some reason, I am fine with that, but that doesn't follow much convention.

Someone double check my math please:

Fuel Block (per run w/ 10% ME):
Heavy water x 151
Liquid Ozone x 151
Isotopes x 400
Strontium x18

I processed 10 blocks of regular ice processed to determine my % processing yield (cause I wanted to see exact numbers, appears to be 75%)
Heavy Water was 517
Liquid Ozone was 262
Isotopes was 3105
Strontium was 7

30 days x 24 hours = 720 hours x 20 blocks / hour = 14,400 blocks

1 Blueprint run = 40 blocks,
14,400 / 40 = 360 runs

Isotopes 400 per run * 360 runs = 144,000 isotopes needed, divided by 310.5 isotopes per block = 2066.92 blocks of ice I need to mine per month

Strontium 18 per run * 360 runs = 6480 stront needed, divided by 0.75 stront per block = 8640 blocks of ice I need to mine per month

So, I have went from needing 2067 blocks of ice per month to needing 8640 blocks of ice per month

My 2 skiffs + orca = 4 blocks per min. roughly… so, I just went from just over 8.5 hours of ice mining per month to having to mine 36 hours a month




now. lets assume i spend the 36 or so hours ice mineing and come up with roughly 9,000 blocks of ice
and lets assume i turn it into fuel

leftovers.. what do i do with all these leftovers.... what about the other players makeing fuel..... the market will become massively flooded with leftovers

leftovers =
500,000 or so heavy whater
180,000 or so liquid ozone
2.5 million or so isotopes

by the changes in adding strontium (i understand the concept)... creates a completely different economic issue.... players makeing their own fuel, will have to mine 4 times as much, and process 4x as much... and the leftovers from the processing of the ice ... were is it going??? what will be added or changed in the game to create consumption of these items???

You realize that there's stront-heavy ice? I realize it's a null-only ice, but still.

While there's not a lot on market at the moment (because generally there's no reason to even mine it or ship it right now), that would change. Krystallos is able to do about 6-7 runs per block with new requirements, Gelidus is about 4. Aside from that, Strontium itself is very cheap.

Your 360 runs of stront would cost you about ~8.5m at current market values. In fact, the only issue I see is getting the materials around, as it takes up a rather large amount of space, and there's no specialized industrial for ice products. However, the Tayra and Iteron V can both hold up to about ~36k of cargo space fully expanded and trained, which is more than enough room for your single 'month', and almost (but not quite) enough to fit two 'months' worth of stront in their hold.

If you're feeling particularly lazy, you could fit a freighter with expanded holds (rounding it to a nice, even 1m m3, some freighters hold even more) with stront, which would be enough for ~51 'months' worth of runs at the proposed levels, and only cost about 430m at current prices. There are solutions here.

The biggest problem with stront at the moment is it's size. It can't be compressed, it can't be hauled easily, and it's not worth it to export from null, because generally the amount of stront that is transportable in a jump freighter usually isn't worth the fuel cost of jumping it out. If the null market is going to pick up the tab for exporting the stront out, some form of reduction is probably going to be required, or stront prices are going to have to raise significantly higher. If the second becomes true, we'll have some serious problems with sustainability as far as block production goes.

You're working on the assumption that you've gotta mine everything yourself, which simply isn't the case. Ideally the market balances out with you mining in hisec over-producing isotopes and not getting enough stront, while somewhere in null there's a miner with the opposite problem - too much stront, not enough 'topes. And then along comes a trader who bridges the gap between you both and rewards your surplus isotope production with ISK which lets you buy the stront you can't mine locally.

I think that either null needs a stront production boost and a seperate change to make stront easier to export, or else hisec needs a stront boost to make it less dependant on those exports, but that doesn't change the general principle, just the specifics.