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Gadget Helmsdottir
Gadget's Workshop
#521 - 2016-02-16 21:42:34 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:

And buying industrial characters off the bazaar was not possible?

And you need to seriously rethink that "gather stuff cheaper" argument. If you spend the equivalent of $500 worth of ISK to get those players up to the point where they are beating your competition...you did not save anything.


I think I've already stated my views on character purchasing.

And it'll take me months, if not years, for my network to catch up to the competitor that uses doped alts. That's a lot of time for said competitor to make back that initial investment ... and then some.

--Gadget

Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist

Given an hour to save New Eden, how would respected scientist, Albertus Eisenstein compose his thoughts? "Fifty-five minutes to define the problem; save the galaxy in five."
Jenshae Chiroptera
#522 - 2016-02-16 21:43:56 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
...works fine, ...
I mean the display, I see only empty graphs, regardless of character.
As stated, that's likely because for some reason your API key provided to eveboard isn't working.
regardless of character

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Gadget Helmsdottir
Gadget's Workshop
#523 - 2016-02-16 21:44:53 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:


Not dumping money on the game to catch up to an arbitrary SP level is being bad now?


Not now, but it might be in the future.

--Gadgetodamaus

Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist

Given an hour to save New Eden, how would respected scientist, Albertus Eisenstein compose his thoughts? "Fifty-five minutes to define the problem; save the galaxy in five."
Neuntausend
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#524 - 2016-02-16 21:45:25 UTC
helana Tsero wrote:
Neuntausend wrote:
......... But should alliance leaders actually come to expect people to buy Injectors, it will eventually drive those unwilling to out of the game. And that would include myself. And self centered as I am, I don't like the notion of that. It would also influence the type of newbie that will find it's way into the game. .

Good thing is, at this point it's only a hypothetical scenario that may never come to be, but it makes me wonder if CCP thought about this.



LOL... if Mittani actually tried this it would be the death of the goons.

wait... yes actually he should make you all buy injectors. encourage him !


That's not how social expectations work. People typically won't straight up tell you to behave a certain way, even if they expect you to. But if you don't they'll just not bother with you. I'm not so much afraid of alliance leaders saying "you have to buy injectors" all of a sudden - nobody in their right mind would do that. It's more the common consensus that it's "normal" to buy Injectors that may take hold in the community. Once that has happened, it doesn't matter if anyone actually demands the use of Injectors once a new doctrine pops up. People will just do it, and those who don't will get left behind.

Admittedly, that's a bit of a horror scenario I am painting here, but it's certainly not impossible.
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#525 - 2016-02-16 21:48:15 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
So finally an actual argument has been cobbled together in opposition to sp injectors beyond waxing poetical about how good waiting years to be able to do particular things is awesome.

Of course this argument is unrealistic and absurd, suggesting that players will feel comp[elled by others to spend the thousands of dollars they dont have spare or the dozens of billions of isk they dont have to compete.

Now you have reached this bizarre conclusion as the only supposed consiquence of sp injectors, can the people worried about them calm down and reflect how they are a non issue in real terms.

Thanks.


No, it Bravo Sierra because such demands have always existed in many alliances. When I first joined EXE I was flying support ships for a loooong time while I waited for my first set of large T2 guns to be trained. Then and only then did I fly BS in stratop fleets.


I seriously doubt that anyone was told to buy SP injector for real life cash or in game isk before SP injectors existed. I understand your point, but it is not a counter point to mine.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#526 - 2016-02-16 21:50:48 UTC
Neuntausend wrote:
helana Tsero wrote:
Neuntausend wrote:
......... But should alliance leaders actually come to expect people to buy Injectors, it will eventually drive those unwilling to out of the game. And that would include myself. And self centered as I am, I don't like the notion of that. It would also influence the type of newbie that will find it's way into the game. .

Good thing is, at this point it's only a hypothetical scenario that may never come to be, but it makes me wonder if CCP thought about this.



LOL... if Mittani actually tried this it would be the death of the goons.

wait... yes actually he should make you all buy injectors. encourage him !


That's not how social expectations work. People typically won't straight up tell you to behave a certain way, even if they expect you to. But if you don't they'll just not bother with you. I'm not so much afraid of alliance leaders saying "you have to buy injectors" all of a sudden - nobody in their right mind would do that. It's more the common consensus that it's "normal" to buy Injectors that may take hold in the community. Once that has happened, it doesn't matter if anyone actually demands the use of Injectors once a new doctrine pops up. People will just do it, and those who don't will get left behind.

Admittedly, that's a bit of a horror scenario I am painting here, but it's certainly not impossible.


Or they'll fly ship inside the doctrine that they have already trained for. If running the potential SP treadmill does not interest you, skill for support ship. They will always be needed anyway. No matter where the DPS in a fleet comes from, logistic cruisers will pretty much always be present. Recons are a semi-safe bet coupled with T3 with their E-WAR configuration to replace recon when the tanking doctrine is not compatible. Once you have that, you are pretty much set and can slow grind the SP for anything without really being left out.
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#527 - 2016-02-16 21:51:54 UTC
Gadget Helmsdottir wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:

And buying industrial characters off the bazaar was not possible?

And you need to seriously rethink that "gather stuff cheaper" argument. If you spend the equivalent of $500 worth of ISK to get those players up to the point where they are beating your competition...you did not save anything.


I think I've already stated my views on character purchasing.

And it'll take me months, if not years, for my network to catch up to the competitor that uses doped alts. That's a lot of time for said competitor to make back that initial investment ... and then some.

--Gadget


Sorry, i missed this argument. Im sure in some universe a role-played argument carries some weight even though it is irreverent in terms of playing EVE game outside of role-play.

For now, you should stop posting, while cute, it doesnt present anything useful to the debate. Actually, there doesnt seem to be any realistic and useful arguments against SP injectors, so carry on if you must.
Gadget Helmsdottir
Gadget's Workshop
#528 - 2016-02-16 21:58:08 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Gadget Helmsdottir wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:

And buying industrial characters off the bazaar was not possible?

And you need to seriously rethink that "gather stuff cheaper" argument. If you spend the equivalent of $500 worth of ISK to get those players up to the point where they are beating your competition...you did not save anything.


I think I've already stated my views on character purchasing.

And it'll take me months, if not years, for my network to catch up to the competitor that uses doped alts. That's a lot of time for said competitor to make back that initial investment ... and then some.

--Gadget


Sorry, i missed this argument. Im sure in some universe a role-played argument carries some weight even though it is irreverent in terms of playing EVE game outside of role-play.

For now, you should stop posting, while cute, it doesnt present anything useful to the debate. Actually, there doesnt seem to be any realistic and useful arguments against SP injectors, so carry on if you must.


Dearie,

Analogy, speculation, and prediction are very useful tools when handled correctly.

I'm sure you can find a teacher if you desired.

--Gadget

Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist

Given an hour to save New Eden, how would respected scientist, Albertus Eisenstein compose his thoughts? "Fifty-five minutes to define the problem; save the galaxy in five."
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#529 - 2016-02-16 22:03:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
Gadget Helmsdottir wrote:

Dearie,

Analogy, speculation, and prediction are very useful tools when handled correctly.

I'm sure you can find a teacher if you desired.

--Gadget


Im not the one misusing those things to create absurd arguments about redundancy and levels of competition among roles, in game. People have already maxed out every single aspect of this game and that has been the case for many years.

If you feel that you are falling behind, there is now an option for you to catch up.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#530 - 2016-02-16 22:06:26 UTC
Gadget Helmsdottir wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:

And buying industrial characters off the bazaar was not possible?

And you need to seriously rethink that "gather stuff cheaper" argument. If you spend the equivalent of $500 worth of ISK to get those players up to the point where they are beating your competition...you did not save anything.


I think I've already stated my views on character purchasing.

And it'll take me months, if not years, for my network to catch up to the competitor that uses doped alts. That's a lot of time for said competitor to make back that initial investment ... and then some.

--Gadget


So, all that a guy who buys SP is moving his training forwards for a PRICE. He is spending something, ISK or RL money. Whatever value he gets due to having high SP now which allows him to earn more ISK now is offset at least in part, if not entirely, by what he spent.

And yeah, I love the "he'll have months or years to recover his initial investment..." I thought none of these instant gratification players were going to hang around long.

Further, industrial stuff has a substantial fixed cost. Either you train for a long time then do it. Or you buy SP and start right away. You don't start training then start doing industrial stuff because you'll suck and the market prices are already set by people who have very good if not perfect skills already. You can make decent profits with datacore skills trained to 4, 5 is better. But 4 allows for okay invention profits.

So this notion that you can't do it the old fashioned way is just Bravo Sierra, players who skilled up along time ago have already captured most of the rents.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#531 - 2016-02-16 22:07:32 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
regardless of character
That's what I get for assuming it hadn't changed over the last week. Apparently it has. Intentional reduction in function or just broken I do not know.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#532 - 2016-02-16 22:08:19 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
But imagine if you had a boat ready with the host of concerns about it for crossing an ocean, and somebody gives you a plant ticket.
Consider it a good thing.
Sailing is a greater adventure.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#533 - 2016-02-16 22:22:16 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Neuntausend wrote:
helana Tsero wrote:
Neuntausend wrote:
......... But should alliance leaders actually come to expect people to buy Injectors, it will eventually drive those unwilling to out of the game. And that would include myself. And self centered as I am, I don't like the notion of that. It would also influence the type of newbie that will find it's way into the game. .

Good thing is, at this point it's only a hypothetical scenario that may never come to be, but it makes me wonder if CCP thought about this.



LOL... if Mittani actually tried this it would be the death of the goons.

wait... yes actually he should make you all buy injectors. encourage him !


That's not how social expectations work. People typically won't straight up tell you to behave a certain way, even if they expect you to. But if you don't they'll just not bother with you. I'm not so much afraid of alliance leaders saying "you have to buy injectors" all of a sudden - nobody in their right mind would do that. It's more the common consensus that it's "normal" to buy Injectors that may take hold in the community. Once that has happened, it doesn't matter if anyone actually demands the use of Injectors once a new doctrine pops up. People will just do it, and those who don't will get left behind.

Admittedly, that's a bit of a horror scenario I am painting here, but it's certainly not impossible.


Or they'll fly ship inside the doctrine that they have already trained for. If running the potential SP treadmill does not interest you, skill for support ship. They will always be needed anyway. No matter where the DPS in a fleet comes from, logistic cruisers will pretty much always be present. Recons are a semi-safe bet coupled with T3 with their E-WAR configuration to replace recon when the tanking doctrine is not compatible. Once you have that, you are pretty much set and can slow grind the SP for anything without really being left out.


This. Alliances will likely implement 2 tracks for SP. If you want to go buy alot of SP, fine. But if you don't/can't the traditional route is always there. FCs are always begging for more logistics and even tackle. Train those and you'll be fine as you grind out the other skills for additional ships.

The argument that alliance leaders are going to become completely unreasonable assholes making outrageous demands on their players...and that they won't just leave said alliance...is bordering on...well dumb yet again.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Feledain
Elmsfeuer
#534 - 2016-02-16 22:30:21 UTC
What he did is good for the game as a whole.
Many skill points have been lost, that means the remaining SP become more valuable because there are fewer in the game.

And what did he realy gain?
Can he have more research or factory jobs then anybody else?
Does he more damge in any ship?
Can he mine more?
Can he jump further?
Does his ship fly faster, more cargo or anything?

That was no "investment" he bought something to brag about.
Neuntausend
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#535 - 2016-02-16 22:37:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Neuntausend
Teckos Pech wrote:
The insistence to train doctrine ships has always been there in the serious alliances. At least it was with EXE. Back in the day it was "do not fly a BS if you did not have T2 guns". The reason put forward were manifold, but I'll list 2 points.

1. If you fly a ship other than the doctrine the FC cannot do what he wants because of varying ranges/DPS. Kitchen sink fleets are always beaten by doctrine fleets (assuming similar size).

2. The alliance and its leadership have worked, with the help of line members, to have space to use and one of the requirements is to actively work towards training doctrine ships.

The idea, that this demand will suddenly appear is misleading, IMO, in that it has already been there.


Alliances have doctrines - of course. But without the possibility to just inject SP whenever, one can only change the doctrine every so often to allow the players to catch up, and typically we get a bit of a warning beforehand so we can at least train T2 guns or a certain hull in time. But a day may come where Alliances switch doctrines on a whim because players can just buy the skills they need.

Now, with us being us, I wouldn't be surprised to see Alliance discounts on SP Injectors or SP handouts for newbees, which would be nice and even somewhat acceptable, but also stressful. Also, what about those who are not us and therefore not spacerich?
Hani Tian
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#536 - 2016-02-16 22:40:48 UTC
Feledain wrote:
What he did is good for the game as a whole.
Many skill points have been lost, that means the remaining SP become more valuable because there are fewer in the game.

And what did he realy gain?
Can he have more research or factory jobs then anybody else?
Does he more damge in any ship?
Can he mine more?
Can he jump further?
Does his ship fly faster, more cargo or anything?

That was no "investment" he bought something to brag about.


Same thing I'm thinking. Who is stupid enough to spend 1.7 trillion isk on this, for what?
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#537 - 2016-02-16 22:45:55 UTC
Neuntausend wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
The insistence to train doctrine ships has always been there in the serious alliances. At least it was with EXE. Back in the day it was "do not fly a BS if you did not have T2 guns". The reason put forward were manifold, but I'll list 2 points.

1. If you fly a ship other than the doctrine the FC cannot do what he wants because of varying ranges/DPS. Kitchen sink fleets are always beaten by doctrine fleets (assuming similar size).

2. The alliance and its leadership have worked, with the help of line members, to have space to use and one of the requirements is to actively work towards training doctrine ships.

The idea, that this demand will suddenly appear is misleading, IMO, in that it has already been there.


Alliances have doctrines - of course. But without the possibility to just inject SP whenever, one can only change the doctrine every so often to allow the players to catch up, and typically we get a bit of a warning beforehand so we can at least train T2 guns or a certain hull in time. But a day may come where Alliances switch doctrines on a whim because players can just buy the skills they need.

Now, with us being us, I wouldn't be surprised to see Alliance discounts on SP Injectors or SP handouts for newbees, which would be nice and even somewhat acceptable, but also stressful. Also, what about those who are not us and therefore not spacerich?
Normally we see doctrine changes because there are reasons to change doctrines not related to SP. Balance changes tend to be the biggest driver. Unless the expectation is that this will move to "because we can" reasoning, and all the disadvantages that come with frequent deviations from a working strategy, more frequent switches would seem unlikely.
Durgis Athonille
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#538 - 2016-02-16 22:46:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Durgis Athonille
[/quote]Yes but I can also just go mine and rat to gain the ISK i need to buy that plex FOR FREE. In fact I could if i so wanted never ever pay personally to play the game. So my point is remove that option so that you cant buy game time with ISK from ingame but in order to sub you need to physically pay for it. Sorry perhaps plex was a bad example.
Basically you pay for your subs with real cash and the option to buy game time with plex stops, but of course you can buy plex with isk to do the other stuff it allows you to do. Therefore income from actual subs should increase quite alot.[/quote]

This.
If you are not paying real money to play this game then you are not contributing to the bottom line.
If you want the sandbox you have to help pay for the sand.
New players pay real money and they want to fly the ship they want when they want.
If they want to start in a Navy Comet or whatever they can pay or the skills to do so and learn to fly the ship they want to fly.
How does that negatively effect anyone?
If they stay in the game for 3 months then that's 3 months subscription and the money spent to train the skills and for Plex to buy the ship, plus all the fun they'll have fitting and flying and practicing.
Oh yeah, and they might like it and stay.
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#539 - 2016-02-16 22:48:52 UTC
Hani Tian wrote:
Feledain wrote:
What he did is good for the game as a whole.
Many skill points have been lost, that means the remaining SP become more valuable because there are fewer in the game.

And what did he realy gain?
Can he have more research or factory jobs then anybody else?
Does he more damge in any ship?
Can he mine more?
Can he jump further?
Does his ship fly faster, more cargo or anything?

That was no "investment" he bought something to brag about.


Same thing I'm thinking. Who is stupid enough to spend 1.7 trillion isk on this, for what?
To be first?
To get people to use his gambling site?
For the 30,000 views on EB?
To stir up controversy?

I can think of a whole lot more, but you should have the idea.

Mr Epeen Cool
stg slate
State War Academy
Caldari State
#540 - 2016-02-16 22:51:22 UTC
Neuntausend wrote:

Now, with us being us, I wouldn't be surprised to see Alliance discounts on SP Injectors or SP handouts for newbees, which would be nice and even somewhat acceptable, but also stressful. Also, what about those who are not us and therefore not spacerich?


I remember one day 1 on goonswarm people kept throwing huge piles of ISK at me even though all I could fly was a coercer. I was a billionaire and I never asked for a dime and even told people to stop donating me ISK.

On the upside I flew a pimpin coercer in every fleet battle i was in, because why the **** not?