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First Maxed Eve account.

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Neuntausend
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#501 - 2016-02-16 21:15:02 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Too bad you died of cholera. P


I can live with that.

No - wait ... I can't.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#502 - 2016-02-16 21:15:41 UTC
Gadget Helmsdottir wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Demica Diaz wrote:
Even though I am quite neutral about skill injecting feature. This makes me just tiny bit sad. Feels like something from EVE has lost. Wierd feeling. Straight



On the same token, imagine what a big deal it used to be to cross an ocean by boat. Then think about how you can cross it in hours by aircraft.


If you had to get across an ocean, what would you prefer?

But imagine if you had a boat ready with the host of concerns about it for crossing an ocean, and somebody gives you a plant ticket.

Would that not take off the pressure and leave your faculties up for other matters, like what you are going to do when you get to the other side?


Now that somebody is maxed out, it does not matter when somebody is maxed out. It's irrelevant, and Eve Online didn't implode. (and the server didn't crash either)

Consider it a good thing.


Carrying the analogy forward...

While you can choose to slowboat across an ocean, to be competitive, one must choose the quickest route. Your competition will be.

In the not so far future, SP-injected characters will be the expectation.


--Gadget


You don't have to play with people who expect things from you which you don't want to do. If people start expecting you to boost your SP every time a doctrine change, you can play with other players.
Gadget Helmsdottir
Gadget's Workshop
#503 - 2016-02-16 21:16:09 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:


Right nobody uses giant slow moving container ships ever. Roll


If I were to send a contract via ship to Europe for signature and have it returned, this would take weeks.

With a plane, it takes days,


With e-mail and PDFs... I did it over coffee.

--Gadget

Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist

Given an hour to save New Eden, how would respected scientist, Albertus Eisenstein compose his thoughts? "Fifty-five minutes to define the problem; save the galaxy in five."
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#504 - 2016-02-16 21:17:41 UTC
The notion that people MUST use skill injectors to get a maxed out character is just dumb.

I for one will not spend $30,000 doing that. Not unless I get a substantial boost to my income like an order of magnitude boost...and even then...still probably wouldn't. I'd probably rather spend it doing a Pat O'Brien. P

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Gadget Helmsdottir
Gadget's Workshop
#505 - 2016-02-16 21:17:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Gadget Helmsdottir
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Gadget Helmsdottir wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Demica Diaz wrote:
Even though I am quite neutral about skill injecting feature. This makes me just tiny bit sad. Feels like something from EVE has lost. Wierd feeling. Straight



On the same token, imagine what a big deal it used to be to cross an ocean by boat. Then think about how you can cross it in hours by aircraft.


If you had to get across an ocean, what would you prefer?

But imagine if you had a boat ready with the host of concerns about it for crossing an ocean, and somebody gives you a plant ticket.

Would that not take off the pressure and leave your faculties up for other matters, like what you are going to do when you get to the other side?


Now that somebody is maxed out, it does not matter when somebody is maxed out. It's irrelevant, and Eve Online didn't implode. (and the server didn't crash either)

Consider it a good thing.


Carrying the analogy forward...

While you can choose to slowboat across an ocean, to be competitive, one must choose the quickest route. Your competition will be.

In the not so far future, SP-injected characters will be the expectation.


--Gadget


You don't have to play with people who expect things from you which you don't want to do. If people start expecting you to boost your SP every time a doctrine change, you can play with other players.


Other "bad" players? Blink

--Gadget

Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist

Given an hour to save New Eden, how would respected scientist, Albertus Eisenstein compose his thoughts? "Fifty-five minutes to define the problem; save the galaxy in five."
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#506 - 2016-02-16 21:19:47 UTC
Gadget Helmsdottir wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:


Right nobody uses giant slow moving container ships ever. Roll


If I were to send a contract via ship to Europe for signature and have it returned, this would take weeks.

With a plane, it takes days,


With e-mail and PDFs... I did it over coffee.

--Gadget


Wow, right over your head.

Yes, the point is that to be competitive speed is not everything.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Scott Dracov
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#507 - 2016-02-16 21:20:05 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Demica Diaz wrote:
Even though I am quite neutral about skill injecting feature. This makes me just tiny bit sad. Feels like something from EVE has lost. Wierd feeling. Straight


On the same token, imagine what a big deal it used to be to cross an ocean by boat. Then think about how you can cross it in hours by aircraft.


Almost no one wants to emulate in a video game a commercial pilot (RIP FS) who's goal is to never have their name known by anyone (an anonymous accident free career) rather most would want to pretend to be Richard Bong or Erich Hartmann or one of the other Ace of Aces of WW2 in epic air battles that will never be seen again.

To be Lindberg and be the first to cross the ocean by air or fight in historic WW2 aircraft with nothing but guns and propellers not because it is easy but because it is hard and because it was epic and today unattainable much like space flight and combat is unattainable today it is also attractive.

There was a speech by some politician that got shot about things that are chosen to be done because they are hard that is totally irrelevant and does not at all apply to EVE since it is a space game and he was not referring to anything remotely in the same spirit as this.

Not to say anything about EVE SP is hard beyond the wait... which is no longer a barrier. But it felt like a long term goal. stepping stones to the moon you could say.

Of course its just a grey dust covered rock your standing on but it took you 10 years of planning to get there and the dedication of that effort used to be epic. at least I certainly thought it was until now.
Avvy
Doomheim
#508 - 2016-02-16 21:22:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Avvy
Gadget Helmsdottir wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Demica Diaz wrote:
Even though I am quite neutral about skill injecting feature. This makes me just tiny bit sad. Feels like something from EVE has lost. Wierd feeling. Straight



On the same token, imagine what a big deal it used to be to cross an ocean by boat. Then think about how you can cross it in hours by aircraft.


If you had to get across an ocean, what would you prefer?

But imagine if you had a boat ready with the host of concerns about it for crossing an ocean, and somebody gives you a plant ticket.

Would that not take off the pressure and leave your faculties up for other matters, like what you are going to do when you get to the other side?


Now that somebody is maxed out, it does not matter when somebody is maxed out. It's irrelevant, and Eve Online didn't implode. (and the server didn't crash either)

Consider it a good thing.


Carrying the analogy forward...

While you can choose to slowboat across an ocean, to be competitive, one must choose the quickest route. Your competition will be.

In the not so far future, SP-injected characters will be the expectation.


--Gadget



With attributes and attribute implants removed and the training speed increase to at least compensate. That should help new players especially those that can't afford sp injectors.

If there is an sp-injected character expectation then that is the players that are enforcing such a thing.

CCP can give the tools to do things but if the players want to enforce restrictions then the players can't blame CCP.

If you're excluded from a corp. because of sp then find another one, chances are you might not like it there anyway (at least if it was me).
Gillia Winddancer
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#509 - 2016-02-16 21:22:29 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
Gillia Winddancer wrote:
Scott Dracov wrote:
Gillia Winddancer wrote:
....

So that means that a typical blob vs blob scenario goes something like this then: "Target that hurricane...no wait, he has maxed out all BC skills and medium projectiles and whatnot else, go for that other hurricane...he is a newbie scrub!"....



On a personal level after spending a long time maxing out armor comps to 5 and waiting that time then being in a trial by fire and watching your ship take the full brunt of the enemies fleet being within a hair of exploding into hull... and then being saved at the last second by guardian reps and saying to yourself thank god I spent that time on those skills or I would be in a pod and then in a new pod...

and now realizing that no one else has to wait like you did its all available right now if you pay for it.

and the price you paid in time investment. the choices you made with your meager skill points for what you wanted to do...

does not matter now as its all available... right now.

that cheapens the whole experience in ways beyond description to the point of futility.


To be honest, I could care less what others do. I have no real intention of using skill injectors on such a grand scale or if at all. It wont affect my gameplay whatsoever. And I am not so petty as to think about what other suddenly can or cannot do where the means doesn't change the end result.
Couldn't. Couldn't care less. If you have no interest, then you couldn't - not could - care less.

I was watching one of the GOP debates the other day and even these supposed well read and educated bastions of conservatism were saying it wrong.

What has happened to the first world that so many people get so many common phrases so wrong?

Mr Epeen Cool


Ah yes, that is true haha. Should be "Could". Oh well, am in bed with a rather nasty fever so yeah...hot-headed on multiple levels today.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#510 - 2016-02-16 21:25:22 UTC
Scott Dracov wrote:

Of course its just a grey dust covered rock your standing on but it took you 10 years of planning to get there and the dedication of that effort used to be epic. at least I certainly thought it was until now.


Epic? Wut? All you had to do was wait. That's it. Well okay, log in and inject the periodic skill book and keep skills going.

I am not a supporter of trading SP (although maybe time will prove me wrong), but sheesh talk about some powerful rose tinted glasses there regarding skill training.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Gadget Helmsdottir
Gadget's Workshop
#511 - 2016-02-16 21:29:42 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Gadget Helmsdottir wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:


Right nobody uses giant slow moving container ships ever. Roll


If I were to send a contract via ship to Europe for signature and have it returned, this would take weeks.

With a plane, it takes days,


With e-mail and PDFs... I did it over coffee.

--Gadget


Wow, right over your head.

Yes, the point is that to be competitive speed is not everything.


I know, dear.
Use the right tool for the job and all that.

If all I wanted to do was fly T1 tackle, then sure SP-container ship away.

However, I'm an industrialist. SP does make a difference.
Yes, making alts may get more bang for your buck, but combining them with the SP injections just made an instant Industrial Army... which I already have the experience to run. It scales well.

My competition will also have this ability.

If I choose not to do this, but my competitor does, then I'm going to lose to those that can make stuff and gather the resources cheaper because they SP buffed.

Maybe I can be happy with a little house on some desolate prairie eking out a living, but that's not what drew me to EvE. And now, I have to make a hard decision... keep up with the competition, don't and be less than what I could be but still have my "higher ground", or give it up altogether.

--Gadget says no to option C

Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist

Given an hour to save New Eden, how would respected scientist, Albertus Eisenstein compose his thoughts? "Fifty-five minutes to define the problem; save the galaxy in five."
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#512 - 2016-02-16 21:30:04 UTC
Gadget Helmsdottir wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Gadget Helmsdottir wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Demica Diaz wrote:
Even though I am quite neutral about skill injecting feature. This makes me just tiny bit sad. Feels like something from EVE has lost. Wierd feeling. Straight



On the same token, imagine what a big deal it used to be to cross an ocean by boat. Then think about how you can cross it in hours by aircraft.


If you had to get across an ocean, what would you prefer?

But imagine if you had a boat ready with the host of concerns about it for crossing an ocean, and somebody gives you a plant ticket.

Would that not take off the pressure and leave your faculties up for other matters, like what you are going to do when you get to the other side?


Now that somebody is maxed out, it does not matter when somebody is maxed out. It's irrelevant, and Eve Online didn't implode. (and the server didn't crash either)

Consider it a good thing.


Carrying the analogy forward...

While you can choose to slowboat across an ocean, to be competitive, one must choose the quickest route. Your competition will be.

In the not so far future, SP-injected characters will be the expectation.


--Gadget


You don't have to play with people who expect things from you which you don't want to do. If people start expecting you to boost your SP every time a doctrine change, you can play with other players.


Other "bad" players? Blink

--Gadget


Not dumping money on the game to catch up to an arbitrary SP level is being bad now?
Neuntausend
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#513 - 2016-02-16 21:32:16 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
The notion that people MUST use skill injectors to get a maxed out character is just dumb.

I for one will not spend $30,000 doing that. Not unless I get a substantial boost to my income like an order of magnitude boost...and even then...still probably wouldn't. I'd probably rather spend it doing a Pat O'Brien. P


Of course it's dumb. But I've already read articles on how SP trading is great for alliance leaders, because they can now insist that people train doctrine ships. Which implies that they can be expected to purchase SP injectors every time a new meta comes along.

Now, of course I do have the option to not go along with this bullshit (and I won't), should it ever come to this. I also have the option to not play this game. It's not so much about how this is goint to affect me directly. But should alliance leaders actually come to expect people to buy Injectors, it will eventually drive those unwilling to out of the game. And that would include myself. And self centered as I am, I don't like the notion of that. It would also influence the type of newbie that will find it's way into the game. The ones who are fine with dumping money into the game might be more compelled to stay than those who don't if they get Gold Ammo plastered on their faces from day one. (I know it's not Gold Ammo, but to someone who doesn't know jack about the game it sure does look like it.)

Good thing is, at this point it's only a hypothetical scenario that may never come to be, but it makes me wonder if CCP thought about this.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#514 - 2016-02-16 21:32:56 UTC
Gadget Helmsdottir wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Gadget Helmsdottir wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:


Right nobody uses giant slow moving container ships ever. Roll


If I were to send a contract via ship to Europe for signature and have it returned, this would take weeks.

With a plane, it takes days,


With e-mail and PDFs... I did it over coffee.

--Gadget


Wow, right over your head.

Yes, the point is that to be competitive speed is not everything.


I know, dear.
Use the right tool for the job and all that.

If all I wanted to do was fly T1 tackle, then sure SP-container ship away.

However, I'm an industrialist. SP does make a difference.
Yes, making alts may get more bang for your buck, but combining them with the SP injections just made an instant Industrial Army... which I already have the experience to run. It scales well.

My competition will also have this ability.

If I choose not to do this, but my competitor does, then I'm going to lose to those that can make stuff and gather the resources cheaper because they SP buffed.

Maybe I can be happy with a little house on some desolate prairie eking out a living, but that's not what drew me to EvE. And now, I have to make a hard decision... keep up with the competition, don't and be less than what I could be but still have my "higher ground", or give it up altogether.

--Gadget says no to option C


And buying industrial characters off the bazaar was not possible?

And you need to seriously rethink that "gather stuff cheaper" argument. If you spend the equivalent of $500 worth of ISK to get those players up to the point where they are beating your competition...you did not save anything.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
helana Tsero
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#515 - 2016-02-16 21:33:09 UTC
LOL... I really dont care.

This doesnt effect anything. My SP is the same as it was yesterday.

This max character guy will never undock.

This has zero relevence to actually playing the game.

If people are flying their PVP boats without already having trained to atleast to Lvl 4 for that ship / support skils then they are dumb.

After lvl 4 for majority of ships it all comes down to player skill

The meta game comes down to player skill. Being a market guy comes down to player skill. Even PVE largely comes down to player skill once you train for the optimal ship.

SP doesnt matter... its just Epeen.. like having a better cpu, bigger/ multple monitors etc.. Actually ... its likely that having multiple moniters provides more benefit in Eve than maxing your SP !.

"...ppl need to get out of caves and they will see something new.... thats where eve is placed... not in cave."  | zoonr-Korsairs |

Meanwhile Citadel release issues: "tried to bug report this and the bug report is bugged as well" | Rafeau |
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#516 - 2016-02-16 21:35:11 UTC
Gadget Helmsdottir wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Gadget Helmsdottir wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:


Right nobody uses giant slow moving container ships ever. Roll


If I were to send a contract via ship to Europe for signature and have it returned, this would take weeks.

With a plane, it takes days,


With e-mail and PDFs... I did it over coffee.

--Gadget


Wow, right over your head.

Yes, the point is that to be competitive speed is not everything.


I know, dear.
Use the right tool for the job and all that.

If all I wanted to do was fly T1 tackle, then sure SP-container ship away.

However, I'm an industrialist. SP does make a difference.
Yes, making alts may get more bang for your buck, but combining them with the SP injections just made an instant Industrial Army... which I already have the experience to run. It scales well.

My competition will also have this ability.

If I choose not to do this, but my competitor does, then I'm going to lose to those that can make stuff and gather the resources cheaper because they SP buffed.

Maybe I can be happy with a little house on some desolate prairie eking out a living, but that's not what drew me to EvE. And now, I have to make a hard decision... keep up with the competition, don't and be less than what I could be but still have my "higher ground", or give it up altogether.

--Gadget says no to option C


Oh noes, someone interested in investing more time, effort and money into the sandbox might end up with better results than me.

News flash, you can buy industry character off the bazaar if boosting SP is not your cup of tea and could even do it before SP trading which mean people could already out-produce you if they wanted to burn money on it. The few things that changed is the bottleneck is split in 2 (trained character OR SP injector on market now) and you get to choose your character name if you SP boost instead of buying a pre-made.
helana Tsero
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#517 - 2016-02-16 21:36:30 UTC  |  Edited by: helana Tsero
Neuntausend wrote:
......... But should alliance leaders actually come to expect people to buy Injectors, it will eventually drive those unwilling to out of the game. And that would include myself. And self centered as I am, I don't like the notion of that. It would also influence the type of newbie that will find it's way into the game. .

Good thing is, at this point it's only a hypothetical scenario that may never come to be, but it makes me wonder if CCP thought about this.



LOL... if Mittani actually tried this it would be the death of the goons.

wait... yes .....actually he should make you all buy injectors. encourage him !

"...ppl need to get out of caves and they will see something new.... thats where eve is placed... not in cave."  | zoonr-Korsairs |

Meanwhile Citadel release issues: "tried to bug report this and the bug report is bugged as well" | Rafeau |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#518 - 2016-02-16 21:37:04 UTC
So finally an actual argument has been cobbled together in opposition to sp injectors beyond waxing poetical about how good waiting years to be able to do particular things is awesome.

Of course this argument is unrealistic and absurd, suggesting that players will feel comp[elled by others to spend the thousands of dollars they dont have spare or the dozens of billions of isk they dont have to compete.

Now you have reached this bizarre conclusion as the only supposed consiquence of sp injectors, can the people worried about them calm down and reflect how they are a non issue in real terms.

Thanks.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#519 - 2016-02-16 21:37:47 UTC
Neuntausend wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
The notion that people MUST use skill injectors to get a maxed out character is just dumb.

I for one will not spend $30,000 doing that. Not unless I get a substantial boost to my income like an order of magnitude boost...and even then...still probably wouldn't. I'd probably rather spend it doing a Pat O'Brien. P


Of course it's dumb. But I've already read articles on how SP trading is great for alliance leaders, because they can now insist that people train doctrine ships. Which implies that they can be expected to purchase SP injectors every time a new meta comes along.

Now, of course I do have the option to not go along with this bullshit (and I won't), should it ever come to this. I also have the option to not play this game. It's not so much about how this is goint to affect me directly. But should alliance leaders actually come to expect people to buy Injectors, it will eventually drive those unwilling to out of the game. And that would include myself. And self centered as I am, I don't like the notion of that. It would also influence the type of newbie that will find it's way into the game. The ones who are fine with dumping money into the game might be more compelled to stay than those who don't if they get Gold Ammo plastered on their faces from day one. (I know it's not Gold Ammo, but to someone who doesn't know jack about the game it sure does look like it.)

Good thing is, at this point it's only a hypothetical scenario that may never come to be, but it makes me wonder if CCP thought about this.


The insistence to train doctrine ships has always been there in the serious alliances. At least it was with EXE. Back in the day it was "do not fly a BS if you did not have T2 guns". The reason put forward were manifold, but I'll list 2 points.

1. If you fly a ship other than the doctrine the FC cannot do what he wants because of varying ranges/DPS. Kitchen sink fleets are always beaten by doctrine fleets (assuming similar size).

2. The alliance and its leadership have worked, with the help of line members, to have space to use and one of the requirements is to actively work towards training doctrine ships.

The idea, that this demand will suddenly appear is misleading, IMO, in that it has already been there.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#520 - 2016-02-16 21:39:31 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
So finally an actual argument has been cobbled together in opposition to sp injectors beyond waxing poetical about how good waiting years to be able to do particular things is awesome.

Of course this argument is unrealistic and absurd, suggesting that players will feel comp[elled by others to spend the thousands of dollars they dont have spare or the dozens of billions of isk they dont have to compete.

Now you have reached this bizarre conclusion as the only supposed consiquence of sp injectors, can the people worried about them calm down and reflect how they are a non issue in real terms.

Thanks.


No, it Bravo Sierra because such demands have always existed in many alliances. When I first joined EXE I was flying support ships for a loooong time while I waited for my first set of large T2 guns to be trained. Then and only then did I fly BS in stratop fleets.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online