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Refitting - a Middle ground idea
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Dr Cedric
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1 - 2016-02-16 16:50:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Dr Cedric
I have done (a very small amount of) research in some of the forums going on about this.

The supposed problem:
Carriers in particular, and to a certain extent other capitals and a few BS doctrines can too easily change tank to fit the need with the refitting capabilities of the Nestor and Carrier/SuperCarrier class of ships. This makes them... something... that some of the player base does not like.

The counter-argument:
Refitting gives an incentive for active ship piloting and adds an interesting (and possibly necessary) mechanic to certain fleet engagements, and adds utility to certain PvE endeavors.

My proposed solution:

Keep combat refitting, add a stat to all modules that adds a "refitting timer." It would then take a certain duration for the module refit during combat to online. If Devs want to stifle combat refitting, this would be a good way to do it. Certain mods would have a higher or lower "refitting timer," when refit in combat. Certain mods could have an attribute that precludes them from being refit in combat. Skills could be added to the game (which means more injectors...which means more $$$ CCP...!) to speed up the refitting timer, or that allow the pilot to manage the refitting process (level 1 - low slot mods w/ less than x amount CPU, e.g., up to level 5 - all refit-able modules)

All in all, I've never actually used the mechanic of refitting in space, much less in the middle of a fight. I can appreciate the player skill it takes to accomplish this, and I praise them for their dedication. I'm not sure I care yet if it gets kept or changed or dropped, but this is my idea anyway.

Cedric
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#2 - 2016-02-16 17:13:05 UTC
No. The removal of refitting during combat is finally making things right. All the change is doing is making it so you cannot refit while you have a weapons timer. Weapons timer only last for one minute once you stop shooting or using an offensive module. Once that is up, then they can refit as normal.

This doesn't affect PVE as you don't get a weapons timer when shooting rats. The only situation that you get a weapons timer in PVE is when you use a bastion module or smartbombs. See: Weapon and Logoff Timers

People who fly capitols will just have to risk their ship like everyone else who PVPs in other ships. You don't see people flying sub-capitol hulls refitting during combat, so why should capitols be any different?
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#3 - 2016-02-16 17:15:34 UTC
Estella Osoka wrote:


People who fly capitols will just have to risk their ship like everyone else who PVPs in other ships. You don't see people flying sub-capitol hulls refitting during combat, so why should capitols be any different?




Yes, you do. See: fleets refitting from long to short range weapons at will during combat, removing any consequence to their choice of fitting.
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#4 - 2016-02-16 17:17:47 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Estella Osoka wrote:


People who fly capitols will just have to risk their ship like everyone else who PVPs in other ships. You don't see people flying sub-capitol hulls refitting during combat, so why should capitols be any different?




Yes, you do. See: fleets refitting from long to short range weapons at will during combat, removing any consequence to their choice of fitting.


When have you seen a frigate switch out their mods during combat. Inquiring minds want to know.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#5 - 2016-02-16 17:21:32 UTC
Estella Osoka wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Estella Osoka wrote:


People who fly capitols will just have to risk their ship like everyone else who PVPs in other ships. You don't see people flying sub-capitol hulls refitting during combat, so why should capitols be any different?




Yes, you do. See: fleets refitting from long to short range weapons at will during combat, removing any consequence to their choice of fitting.


When have you seen a frigate switch out their mods during combat. Inquiring minds want to know.



You said subcaps, not specifically frigates. I see battleships and ratting HACs do this frequently.
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#6 - 2016-02-16 17:29:28 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Estella Osoka wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Estella Osoka wrote:


People who fly capitols will just have to risk their ship like everyone else who PVPs in other ships. You don't see people flying sub-capitol hulls refitting during combat, so why should capitols be any different?




Yes, you do. See: fleets refitting from long to short range weapons at will during combat, removing any consequence to their choice of fitting.


When have you seen a frigate switch out their mods during combat. Inquiring minds want to know.



You said subcaps, not specifically frigates. I see battleships and ratting HACs do this frequently.


Using a mobile depot? If that is the case, you reinforce the mobile depot; problem solved through player interaction. You can't do that to a carrier. Carriers have high EHP and capitol reps. Carriers in their current meta refit on the fly while in combat to suit their needs. Losing the fight? All bubbles and bubblers destroyed? Refit to warp core stabs and jump out. You do not see that style of fighting prevalent in sub-cap combat, but in capitol combat it has become the norm.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#7 - 2016-02-16 17:41:06 UTC
Estella Osoka wrote:


Using a mobile depot? If that is the case, you reinforce the mobile depot; problem solved through player interaction. You can't do that to a carrier. Carriers have high EHP and capitol reps. Carriers in their current meta refit on the fly while in combat to suit their needs. Losing the fight? All bubbles and bubblers destroyed? Refit to warp core stabs and jump out. You do not see that style of fighting prevalent in sub-cap combat, but in capitol combat it has become the norm.



The ratting HACs do it with depots they're orbiting, but the battleships use nestors to refit on the fly depending on how the fight is going. Extra tank if you're yellowboxed, swapping to short range guns if the hostiles are close, things like that.

And yes, you can shoot the nestors, but it's not like they're much easier to kill than the carriers you're talking about.
Dr Cedric
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#8 - 2016-02-16 18:10:57 UTC
The Above replies are a great example of the current debate about the use of combat refittings

Point A: It makes a group of players too flexible for situations and has no countter
Point B: It keeps active play-style and allows for flexibility during big engagements

How could my idea find a middle ground?

Cedric
Cidanel Afuran
Grant Village
#9 - 2016-02-16 18:14:12 UTC
Estella Osoka wrote:
When have you seen a frigate switch out their mods during combat. Inquiring minds want to know.


T3Cs swapping from damage to ewar mid fight?

Not frigates, but it's sub-cap and I've seen it.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#10 - 2016-02-16 18:37:46 UTC
Dr Cedric wrote:
The Above replies are a great example of the current debate about the use of combat refittings

Point A: It makes a group of players too flexible for situations and has no countter
Point B: It keeps active play-style and allows for flexibility during big engagements

How could my idea find a middle ground?


Do you not feel that the 'you can refit just fine if you don't have a weapons timer' thing is enough of a middle ground? Just don't shoot anyone for one minute and you can refit how you like!
Dr Cedric
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#11 - 2016-02-16 19:12:25 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Dr Cedric wrote:
The Above replies are a great example of the current debate about the use of combat refittings

Point A: It makes a group of players too flexible for situations and has no countter
Point B: It keeps active play-style and allows for flexibility during big engagements

How could my idea find a middle ground?


Do you not feel that the 'you can refit just fine if you don't have a weapons timer' thing is enough of a middle ground? Just don't shoot anyone for one minute and you can refit how you like!


Like I said in the OP.. I'm not really sure how I feel about it because I haven't used it, nor has it been used against me. I'm finding a middle ground between the 'keep it like it is" and the "don't change it to the 60 second timer" groups.

I envision a 15-20 second onlining timer for capital sized modules (which there will now be alot of them) and maybe 8-12 second timer for regular sized modules. Perhaps that is long enough to make the choice more difficult, allow the opposing fleet to make a significant impact (because you're down a module of some type for 15 seconds) but also allow the change to happen if you time it right.

Cedric
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#12 - 2016-02-16 19:25:53 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Dr Cedric wrote:
The Above replies are a great example of the current debate about the use of combat refittings

Point A: It makes a group of players too flexible for situations and has no countter
Point B: It keeps active play-style and allows for flexibility during big engagements

How could my idea find a middle ground?


Do you not feel that the 'you can refit just fine if you don't have a weapons timer' thing is enough of a middle ground? Just don't shoot anyone for one minute and you can refit how you like!


This. You shouldn't be able to continue fighting/supporting while refitting. Stop fighting. Wait out weapons timer. Refit. Get back in the fight.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#13 - 2016-02-16 19:41:34 UTC
Dr Cedric wrote:


Like I said in the OP.. I'm not really sure how I feel about it because I haven't used it, nor has it been used against me. I'm finding a middle ground between the 'keep it like it is" and the "don't change it to the 60 second timer" groups.

I envision a 15-20 second onlining timer for capital sized modules (which there will now be alot of them) and maybe 8-12 second timer for regular sized modules. Perhaps that is long enough to make the choice more difficult, allow the opposing fleet to make a significant impact (because you're down a module of some type for 15 seconds) but also allow the change to happen if you time it right.




But that 8-12 second timer for subcap modules is actually lower than the duration of half the guns they're refitting to defend against, so your change is less middle ground, more completely pointless. (Medium T2 artillery, for example, has a 10 second cycle timer, and just think what happens if you have time to refit to max tank between a missle volley launching and hitting you.)

Hell, your capital online timer is faster than the duration of 1400mm arty.



60 seconds is a meaningful timer. 8-20 is not.
Dr Cedric
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#14 - 2016-02-17 14:15:25 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Dr Cedric wrote:


Like I said in the OP.. I'm not really sure how I feel about it because I haven't used it, nor has it been used against me. I'm finding a middle ground between the 'keep it like it is" and the "don't change it to the 60 second timer" groups.

I envision a 15-20 second onlining timer for capital sized modules (which there will now be alot of them) and maybe 8-12 second timer for regular sized modules. Perhaps that is long enough to make the choice more difficult, allow the opposing fleet to make a significant impact (because you're down a module of some type for 15 seconds) but also allow the change to happen if you time it right.




But that 8-12 second timer for subcap modules is actually lower than the duration of half the guns they're refitting to defend against, so your change is less middle ground, more completely pointless. (Medium T2 artillery, for example, has a 10 second cycle timer, and just think what happens if you have time to refit to max tank between a missle volley launching and hitting you.)

Hell, your capital online timer is faster than the duration of 1400mm arty.



60 seconds is a meaningful timer. 8-20 is not.



The timing of it is where the Devs and their design goals fit in. Let them change the timing of it to fit whatever needs they have. What I'm trying to do is continue to allow combat refitting to happen (some players want that) but slow it down (devs/some players want that).

And don't forget... you're in the middle of an engagement and for whatever reason you decide to do a refit to tank mods. For whatever the timer is you don't have on whatever other mods you had on before. Now you have a tactical decision to make (active piloting): do you drop this mod, give up its benefits for X seconds hoping that when you get the other mod online it does you better? Will the other fleet target the secondary then back to you while you're going back to _insert doctrine fit_ or should you just keep the fitting you have.

I think this idea does a good job of keeping people in the fight (active piloting... no F1 monkey's here), makes the decision meaningful, and potentially as a good counter in the fact that you are down a (or many) module(s) during the refit process for whatever time frame the Devs decide is meaningful.

Cedric
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#15 - 2016-02-17 14:53:17 UTC
Just an odd thought simply because I can.

Why not remove refit in space completely and in all of it's various forms. Obviously this should not affect POS since you cannot dock but in all other areas why not?

Basic reason here goes back to one of the basics of this game your choices should have consequences and yet in space refits remove a large part of the consequences based on your fitting choices.