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Always able to run? And no Concord? Unknowable missions?

First post
Author
Ibutho Inkosi
Doomheim
#101 - 2016-02-16 16:15:31 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Ibutho Inkosi wrote:
What if no webs/scrams? "He who fight and run away live to fight another day?" Hmmm:

Engagements would then resemble real world naval history, which certainly has no 100% chance at anything.


There's no 100% chance of anything now, except 100% chance of invulnerability while in a warp tunnel (some smartbomb weirdness aside).

As I said before, you can already run away. The difficulty is that you have to actually run faster than your pursuer. The OP was not asking for the ability to always be able to run, he was asking for the ability to always be able to escape by employing the cunning tactic of clicking a universally available UI button.

Quote:

Gankers would have a very hard time devising a way to circumvent the mechanics to "generate content" using juvenile means that make the majority of all other "technology" in the game useless. Dunsels.


Ah. That's what this is about. Roll Guess we've found the slowest gazelle at the watering hole. Lol
Thanks for making my point for me. A game with this level of dynamism and layered nuance, activity and potential reduced to the "slowest gazelle at the watering hole."

By the way, there's a 100% chance to gank. Or, they wouldn't do it.

As long as the tale of the hunt is told by the hunter, and not the lion, it will favor the hunter.

SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#102 - 2016-02-16 16:40:52 UTC
Ibutho Inkosi wrote:

Thanks for making my point for me. A game with this level of dynamism and layered nuance, activity and potential reduced to the "slowest gazelle at the watering hole."

By the way, there's a 100% chance to gank. Or, they wouldn't do it.



There really isn't. Ganks are generally successful, but that is largely by virtue of the gankers doing a fine job in selecting incompetently piloted ships for their targets.

That aside, disruptors are rarely a factor in high-sec ganking. The limited timeframe granted by CONCORD response makes it a high alpha/burst-centric operation. Most ships will be dead before they could have gotten into warp anyway.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Ibutho Inkosi
Doomheim
#103 - 2016-02-16 17:55:31 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Ibutho Inkosi wrote:

Thanks for making my point for me. A game with this level of dynamism and layered nuance, activity and potential reduced to the "slowest gazelle at the watering hole."

By the way, there's a 100% chance to gank. Or, they wouldn't do it.



There really isn't. Ganks are generally successful, but that is largely by virtue of the gankers doing a fine job in selecting incompetently piloted ships for their targets.

That aside, disruptors are rarely a factor in high-sec ganking. The limited timeframe granted by CONCORD response makes it a high alpha/burst-centric operation. Most ships will be dead before they could have gotten into warp anyway.
Okay, even the best bicycle rider falls off the seat if he isn't paying attention. Any 99.999999% success rate for dessie ganking has to do with personal problems, not the nature of the task itself.

Why is it necessary to mischaracterize this? Could it be a guilty little secret that ganking takes no skill at all so the cover up is to confide that "really, there are skill things to this....it's not as easy as people think...." Ah. Yeah. Right. Sometimes the guy clubbing the baby seal misses and hits his own foot. Life happens. Fine.

As long as the tale of the hunt is told by the hunter, and not the lion, it will favor the hunter.

SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#104 - 2016-02-16 17:58:46 UTC
Ibutho Inkosi wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Ibutho Inkosi wrote:

Thanks for making my point for me. A game with this level of dynamism and layered nuance, activity and potential reduced to the "slowest gazelle at the watering hole."

By the way, there's a 100% chance to gank. Or, they wouldn't do it.



There really isn't. Ganks are generally successful, but that is largely by virtue of the gankers doing a fine job in selecting incompetently piloted ships for their targets.

That aside, disruptors are rarely a factor in high-sec ganking. The limited timeframe granted by CONCORD response makes it a high alpha/burst-centric operation. Most ships will be dead before they could have gotten into warp anyway.
Okay, even the best bicycle rider falls off the seat if he isn't paying attention. Any 99.999999% success rate for dessie ganking has to do with personal problems, not the nature of the task itself.

Why is it necessary to mischaracterize this? Could it be a guilty little secret that ganking takes no skill at all so the cover up is to confide that "really, there are skill things to this....it's not as easy as people think...." Ah. Yeah. Right. Sometimes the guy clubbing the baby seal misses and hits his own foot. Life happens. Fine.


If it were as easy as you would like to pretend, you'd likely get out there and snag some of that easy money instead of crying about it interminably. ;)

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Neuntausend
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#105 - 2016-02-16 18:10:45 UTC
An unsuccessful gank is a gank that doesn't happen. There are many freighter, industrial or barge pilots who know how to fly and fit their ships to not become a target in the first place. A freighter that has webs on him after every jump is not on grid long enough for most gankers to even bother. An industrial doing the mwd-cloak-warp trick on every gate may get slip through without ever getting noticed. A barge with 100k EHP usually doesn't even get touched.

On the other hand - gankers typically put at least some effort into finding out which targets they can take, and which ones they'd better let go. It's not exactly rocket science, but it's not like they just blindly shoot everything either.

Both avoiding ganks and ganking don't take a lot, but a bit of effort is involved on both ends.

What this has to do with the topic, though, I do not know. Disruptors/Scrams don't play that big a role in highsec ganking. It's nice to have them, but it's quite doable without them.

Memphis Baas
#106 - 2016-02-16 18:13:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Memphis Baas
Ibutho Inkosi wrote:
Why is it necessary to mischaracterize this? Could it be a guilty little secret that ganking takes no skill at all


Ganking takes no skill at all.

Actually, many vs. 1 PVP takes no skill at all.

Actually, even with 1 vs. 1, or many vs. many PVP, the fight takes no skill at all; EVE ships are designed rock/paper/scissors from the undock, and there's nothing your paper can do to the scissors. Just like with chess, if you're in the wrong position, you're done; there's nothing you can do to save your pawn, queen, w/e. Unless the opponent makes rookie mistakes.

So the point is that all of us min-max our ships to kill by overwhelming force, not by a narrow margin or "skill," but "the enemy had no chance at all." It's the way war is. And thus, the decision to engage or run is instantaneous, as soon as you see what's on overview.

So why single out suicide ganking? Yeah they min-max for the kill, and only attack targets that are min-maxed for profit or mining yield or whatever. Otherwise they run, like the rest of the PVP playerbase, if a bigger group or a pvp-fitted group attacks them.

It's not a guilty little secret, and it's also not in need of being adjusted, as it doesn't use different rules of engagement than the rest of the PVP game. The only way to win a suicide gank if you're the transport or the miner, is to avoid it, and I'd argue that there's enough info presented via the map and the local channel lists to permit that.
Celise Katelo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#107 - 2016-02-16 18:35:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Celise Katelo
You talk utter rubbish, its not bad game design. Shocked , go play Counter Strike if you want to just shoot someone.

World of Warcraft have a bloody Rogue, that can hold you in place longer then a ship in EVE online can.

Whats else.... has similar effects...

Mage can sheep you for a entire match.. well if you suck donkey balls at the game.
My Hunter can trap you, till the next expansion shows up.
Warlocks, Make you run about like ya on steroids.
Priest, mind control you, till you walk off a cliff.

Yes i did the World of Warcraft post in EVE online forums.... Shocked , but these mechanics are just about the same as what EVE online use.

I can list other games that have similar mechanics, that have been about for 10years.

Edited, i forgot to add this part:

I just trained to use a "Heavy Interdiction Cruiser" , Onyx "cough" , i might pvp at some point.


Yeah lets all just hit F1, & do what ?
How would Blaster fits, actually hit anything ?
Alliance Tournaments would be super Poo to watch without such mechanics

I was going to write something else, but forgot what it was.. I went for dinner.. haha

EVEBoard ...Just over 60million skill points, each skill was chosen for a reason. I closed my eyes & clicked another skill to train... "BINGO...!!!" ... "This time i got something usefull"

Ibutho Inkosi
Doomheim
#108 - 2016-02-16 22:27:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Ibutho Inkosi
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Ibutho Inkosi wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Ibutho Inkosi wrote:

Thanks for making my point for me. A game with this level of dynamism and layered nuance, activity and potential reduced to the "slowest gazelle at the watering hole."

By the way, there's a 100% chance to gank. Or, they wouldn't do it.



There really isn't. Ganks are generally successful, but that is largely by virtue of the gankers doing a fine job in selecting incompetently piloted ships for their targets.

That aside, disruptors are rarely a factor in high-sec ganking. The limited timeframe granted by CONCORD response makes it a high alpha/burst-centric operation. Most ships will be dead before they could have gotten into warp anyway.
Okay, even the best bicycle rider falls off the seat if he isn't paying attention. Any 99.999999% success rate for dessie ganking has to do with personal problems, not the nature of the task itself.

Why is it necessary to mischaracterize this? Could it be a guilty little secret that ganking takes no skill at all so the cover up is to confide that "really, there are skill things to this....it's not as easy as people think...." Ah. Yeah. Right. Sometimes the guy clubbing the baby seal misses and hits his own foot. Life happens. Fine.


If it were as easy as you would like to pretend, you'd likely get out there and snag some of that easy money instead of crying about it interminably. ;)
Yeah...can't resist the typical response...nothing more to say so "crying" about it becomes the "player generated content". Don't these people know there's thousands of them out there turning themselves into walking cliches? Well. Maybe that's just a bit too complicated for some folks to grasp...like the "other" things this game has to offer.

Or...maybe....if his "peers" see the word "crying" they won't have to read the horrible words I wrote that made him go into this fit of cliche repetition in the first place! Maybe...."other people" will see his trip word and think, "Gee, you know since he's so internet savvy, and he said 'crying', all that text probably isn't worth reading. Let's assume he read it for us and ... and ...."

Yeah.

As long as the tale of the hunt is told by the hunter, and not the lion, it will favor the hunter.

Eternus8lux8lucis
Duckzer Mining Corporation
RAZOR Alliance
#109 - 2016-02-16 22:50:02 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Eternus8lux8lucis wrote:
The only solution Id come up with


Solution to what problem?

This is all predicated on the OP believing that there's just no way to escape a point, which is clearly false.

You didnt actually read everything I wrote did you? Roll

Have you heard anything I've said?

You said it's all circling the drain, the whole universe. Right?

That's right.

Had to end sometime.

Fa Xian
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#110 - 2016-02-16 23:00:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Fa Xian
It's interesting we'd go the whole thread and all people do is talk about points.

No interest in the other points in the subject? Still plenty of opportunity to flame me for thinking about changing PVE. I'm sure there's fire aplenty somewhere for all my heresy that'll never get implemented and wasn't even a request for change.

But. Points. That was the whole message.
SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#111 - 2016-02-16 23:18:22 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Ibutho Inkosi wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Ibutho Inkosi wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Ibutho Inkosi wrote:

Thanks for making my point for me. A game with this level of dynamism and layered nuance, activity and potential reduced to the "slowest gazelle at the watering hole."

By the way, there's a 100% chance to gank. Or, they wouldn't do it.



There really isn't. Ganks are generally successful, but that is largely by virtue of the gankers doing a fine job in selecting incompetently piloted ships for their targets.

That aside, disruptors are rarely a factor in high-sec ganking. The limited timeframe granted by CONCORD response makes it a high alpha/burst-centric operation. Most ships will be dead before they could have gotten into warp anyway.
Okay, even the best bicycle rider falls off the seat if he isn't paying attention. Any 99.999999% success rate for dessie ganking has to do with personal problems, not the nature of the task itself.

Why is it necessary to mischaracterize this? Could it be a guilty little secret that ganking takes no skill at all so the cover up is to confide that "really, there are skill things to this....it's not as easy as people think...." Ah. Yeah. Right. Sometimes the guy clubbing the baby seal misses and hits his own foot. Life happens. Fine.


If it were as easy as you would like to pretend, you'd likely get out there and snag some of that easy money instead of crying about it interminably. ;)
Yeah...can't resist the typical response...nothing more to say so "crying" about it becomes the "player generated content". Don't these people know there's thousands of them out there turning themselves into walking cliches? Well. Maybe that's just a bit too complicated for some folks to grasp...like the "other" things this game has to offer.

Or...maybe....if his "peers" see the word "crying" they won't have to read the horrible words I wrote that made him go into this fit of cliche repetition in the first place! Maybe...."other people" will see his trip word and think, "Gee, you know since he's so internet savvy, and he said 'crying', all that text probably isn't worth reading. Let's assume he read it for us and ... and ...."

Yeah.


I'm sorry, but did you think your whinging deserved some sort of novel response?

Often times the "typical response" is typical by virtue of its accuracy.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Chopper Rollins
hahahlolspycorp
Brave Collective
#112 - 2016-02-16 23:53:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Chopper Rollins
Fa Xian wrote:
It's interesting we'd go the whole thread and all people do is talk about points.

No interest in the other points in the subject? Still plenty of opportunity to flame me for thinking about changing PVE. I'm sure there's fire aplenty somewhere for all my heresy that'll never get implemented and wasn't even a request for change.

But. Points. That was the whole message.


Confirming you've been utterly obliterated as far as points are concerned, let's see, PVE would be better if you had to commit to it? If you leave the anom/plex/belt whatever you lose what you were in space to hav a chance at? That already exists in a way, with finer points to stop people cloaky camping some sites.
Wait are you saying you would like people to be able to opt out of combat at any time, but have to commit to PVE?
You do understand that PVE content turns players into PVP content, right?

Edit: Just re-read OP. More than one mention of CONCORD, suggestion that the game would be better if helpless transports couldn't be destroyed in favor of "raiding"whatever the hell that is. All this after loss of a shitfit helpless transport gets killed due to the OP being plain bad at EVE.
I'm sorry sir, i don't think this thread has much to contribute other than you get nuked repeatedly.

Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.

Cidanel Afuran
Grant Village
#113 - 2016-02-17 00:01:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Cidanel Afuran
Fa Xian wrote:
No, I'm a game designer. I'm just calling out design flaws.


What games have you designed that went on to be ranked as one of the top rated MMOs for well over a decade? Having been a gamer for over 15 years, I'd like to give those games a try, since you seem to know what's best.
Ibutho Inkosi
Doomheim
#114 - 2016-02-17 11:34:03 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
I'm sorry, but did you think your whinging deserved some sort of novel response?

Often times the "typical response" is typical by virtue of its accuracy.
In the words of the ancient troglodyte, "Don't flatter yourself."

As long as the tale of the hunt is told by the hunter, and not the lion, it will favor the hunter.

Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
#115 - 2016-02-17 12:06:45 UTC
Ibutho Inkosi wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
I'm sorry, but did you think your whinging deserved some sort of novel response?

Often times the "typical response" is typical by virtue of its accuracy.
In the words of the ancient troglodyte, "Don't flatter yourself."

"I didn’t set out to be a one-liner comic"
Gary Delaney
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#116 - 2016-02-17 12:50:19 UTC
Ibutho Inkosi wrote:
Okay, even the best bicycle rider falls off the seat if he isn't paying attention. Any 99.999999% success rate for dessie ganking has to do with personal problems, not the nature of the task itself.

Why is it necessary to mischaracterize this? Could it be a guilty little secret that ganking takes no skill at all so the cover up is to confide that "really, there are skill things to this....it's not as easy as people think...." Ah. Yeah. Right. Sometimes the guy clubbing the baby seal misses and hits his own foot. Life happens. Fine.


I will now point out that according to the largest survey ever done on freighters you stand a less than 0.1% chance of getting ganked over 2.7 million gate jumps in highsec.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#117 - 2016-02-17 20:06:17 UTC
Fa Xian wrote:
Nat Silverguard wrote:
you're drunk OP, go home.


No, I'm a game designer. I'm just calling out design flaws.


No you aren't a game designer, and no you aren't "calling out design flaws", you're just bitching that you can't endlessly grind without fear of loss.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Fa Xian
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#118 - 2016-02-17 20:18:02 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
No you aren't a game designer...


I am. Not computer games though. Published and everything. I'd link to it, but I'm so disenchanted with the hostility and shallowness of the discourse that I can only believe people would out of spite trash my other arts. And what good would that do?

Look at you here? All anger and spite, flaming some stranger on the net. This encourages a belief in discourse?

Quote:
, and no you aren't "calling out design flaws", you're just bitching that you can't endlessly grind without fear of loss.


I've said it before. In this thread. I lose things all the time. I don't care. I'm not even upset about losses. I frequently take risks. I don't find them bothersome... this is my main. Go look it up, killboard worshipper. I owned that Lachesis for 30 minutes, 230M down the drain just to test out recons.

See that's what's wrong here. Instead of talking, I'm written off. You assume that since you'd be upset if you lost isk, I must be too. And when I'm not, it's just confusing...

And you don't have time to be confused. Or learn. Or consider. Just flame and move on.
Cidanel Afuran
Grant Village
#119 - 2016-02-17 20:29:36 UTC
Fa Xian wrote:
I am. Not computer games though. Published and everything. I'd link to it, but I'm so disenchanted with the hostility and shallowness of the discourse that I can only believe people would out of spite trash my other arts. And what good would that do?


How do you account for the fact that EVE has been one of the top ranked MMOs for well over a decade, if the design is flawed?
Fa Xian
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#120 - 2016-02-17 20:37:59 UTC
Fa Xian wrote:
And when I'm not, it's just confusing...

And you don't have time to be confused.


My thinking went like this;

* Got a lot of junk to haul back to hub, but it's late and not a lot of time
* Fit a Nereus with junk I have laying around to pick up my empty beer cans over 12 systems Fit is similar to fit I use in a Helios to escape decloaking solo ambushers in data and relic sites... not gonna survive a gate camp. And weejend night, so gate camp is likely... but no worries, its not stuff I need or care about.

* Notices 2 flashing red on local. Common for people to lay traps in pipes as I'm moving through. Maybe there's two. Two would likely have maybe 3 points between them. I got 3 stabs. I'll make it. And if not, I don't need this stuff.

* Jump... 5 guys. Well I'm toast. Burn back to gate? Won't make it. Guess I take my medicine... Perhaps I'll try to dump my cargo and these guys can have it. Too bad there's no piracy in the game; they'll not talk so a fun social arrangement will not happen...

"Odd. Who sits on a gate? Why? For money? I suppose that was good payout for them. What a yawdry way to make profits. I could have gotten away if I cared. Different fit, different path, different time..."

"Their game play depends on points. If I had a way to move away, they'd get nothing. Would there even be camps - a play style that seems to me unfun - if that was true? How would they play? What would it be like? How would the game empower their play style, a different play style?"


See I don't care. Its just a game.