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Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#181 - 2016-02-16 16:50:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Frostys Virpio wrote:


1- Buy PLEX
2- Sell PLEX on market
3- Buy character
4- Skip grind
5- ???????
6- Profit


So let me ask you a question. Do you think that after sp trading has been around for a while, that more peopel will do the above, or skill trading?

Because that's the whole point. CCP took something that was possible but NOT widley used and turned it into something that IS widely used. Like all things, a little bit of something might be ok where as a lot of it might be bad.

PLEX and the Character Bazaar were (borderline) ok. SP trading isn't, because it takes something (SP) that could only be converted into in game wealth via a convoluted process and streamlined it. Now you have people who would have NEVER sold a toon stipping those toons of now valuable SP, creating another avenue of wealth.

And who has toons to strip? Why, it's established players. Who doesn't have old spare toons to strip? Why it's the new players that this was supposed to help. NOW they have a way to pump cash into CCP (true), but also a way to pump isk to the LAST people who need more wealth.

And all in exchange for skillpoints, that don't make you better at the game (though the new player thinks it does), sitting the new player up for disappointment (as they produce hilarious killmails for vets to laugh at on some Goon website or another). You think disappointment is good for a game?


The problem with shortsightedness is that you can't prove to the short sighted that they are indeed that until after the bad things that were predicted happen. It's like when CCP proposes a nerf, some in the community says "don't do that", CCP does it anyways, it proves to be as unbalanced as people said it would be, and CCP has to spend time and money "iterating" on it later on (when they could have just got it right from the get go) lol. It keeps happening and it's going ti happen this time too.
Avvy
Doomheim
#182 - 2016-02-16 16:58:09 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:

[
Because that's the whole point. CCP took something that was possible but NOT widley used and turned it into something that IS widely used. Like all things, a little bit of something might be ok where as a lot of it might be bad.




Actually it was used quite a bit, when I saw the figures of sales that CCP quoted somewhere, I was very surprised.

It was a lot more than I had perceived.
pajedas
Doomheim
#183 - 2016-02-16 17:08:00 UTC
RMT is BAD!!!

Really, the only difference is that CCP wants to corner the market.

They are the very essence of RMT now.

🐇
Avvy
Doomheim
#184 - 2016-02-16 17:09:35 UTC
pajedas wrote:
RMT is BAD!!!

Really, the only difference is that CCP wants to corner the market.

They are the very essence of RMT now.



They're just getting in tune with other companies.

At least they kept it in the player market.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#185 - 2016-02-16 17:13:24 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:


1- Buy PLEX
2- Sell PLEX on market
3- Buy character
4- Skip grind
5- ???????
6- Profit


So let me ask you a question. Do you think that after sp trading has been around for a while, that more peopel will do the above, or skill trading?

Because that's the whole point. CCP took something that was possible but NOT widley used and turned it into something that IS widely used. Like all things, a little bit of something might be ok where as a lot of it might be bad.

PLEX and the Character Bazaar were (borderline) ok. SP trading isn't, because it takes something (SP) that could only be converted into in game wealth via a convoluted process and streamlined it. Now you have people who would have NEVER sold a toon stipping those toons of now valuable SP, creating another avenue of wealth.

And who has toons to strip? Why, it's established players. Who doesn't have old spare toons to strip? Why it's the new players that this was supposed to help. NOW they have a way to pump cash into CCP (true), but also a way to pump isk to the LAST people who need more wealth.

And all in exchange for skillpoints, that don't make you better at the game (though the new player thinks it does), sitting the new player up for disappointment (as they produce hilarious killmails for vets to laugh at on some Goon website or another). You think disappointment is good for a game?


The problem with shortsightedness is that you can't prove to the short sighted that they are indeed that until after the bad things that were predicted happen. It's like when CCP proposes a nerf, some in the community says "don't do that", CCP does it anyways, it proves to be as unbalanced as people said it would be, and CCP has to spend time and money "iterating" on it later on (when they could have just got it right from the get go) lol. It keeps happening and it's going ti happen this time too.


People will do both because they each have their up side. Alts offer utility a character bloated with SP does not. Simple stuff like not having to be in your corp for any high sec business will be valued. Alts will also still be valued for any task that can scale with character number. The people who will be dissapointed in the result of their "maxed" character as they get blown up will be the same as if they did it over moths to get to the same point.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#186 - 2016-02-16 17:15:18 UTC
pajedas wrote:
RMT is BAD!!!

Really, the only difference is that CCP wants to corner the market.

They are the very essence of RMT now.


Now?

Really? Now?

SP transfer make them the essence of RMT but not PLEX? Skins? Monocle? Space barbie accessories? The line really is at SP transfer where they become the essence of RMT?
pajedas
Doomheim
#187 - 2016-02-16 17:17:57 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
pajedas wrote:
RMT is BAD!!!

Really, the only difference is that CCP wants to corner the market.

They are the very essence of RMT now.


Now?

Really? Now?

SP transfer make them the essence of RMT but not PLEX? Skins? Monocle? Space barbie accessories? The line really is at SP transfer where they become the essence of RMT?

Draw the line wherever you like, makes no difference to me.

I know what I know and you "think" you know what I know :-/

🐇
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#188 - 2016-02-16 17:25:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Frostys Virpio wrote:
The people who will be dissapointed in the result of their "maxed" character as they get blown up will be the same as if they did it over moths to get to the same point.


They will have had months to learn. That's the difference.

There is a real world example. Most people who become rich in real life through a life of hard work (and probably some cunning/cheating) stay rich.
Most people who get rich quick (like winning the lottery, playing professional sports, entertainers etc) end up broke within a few years. It's because the person who got gradually rich developed skills needed to cope with being rich. The 'fast rich' are just poor people with money...that they soon lose.

Skill injected newbies will experience the same things those lottery winners did. That's what I was saying to you. TIME is valuable, and taking time to build up makes for better players, and better experiences for those players.

This is SP trading. (Thanks reddit lol)
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#189 - 2016-02-16 17:31:54 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
The people who will be dissapointed in the result of their "maxed" character as they get blown up will be the same as if they did it over moths to get to the same point.


They will have had months to learn. That's the difference.

There is a real world example. Most people who become rich in real life through a life of hard work (and probably some cunning/cheating) stay rich.
Most people who get rich quick (like winning the lottery, playing professional sports, entertainers etc) end up broke within a few years. It's because the person who got gradually rich developed skills needed to cope with being rich. The 'fast rich' are just poor people with money...that they soon lose.

Skill injected newbies will experience the same things those lottery winners did. That's what I was saying to you. TIME is valuable, and taking time to build up makes for better players, and better experiences for those players.

This is SP trading. (Thanks reddit lol)


People are still dissapointed at losing their freighter after years of playing. Time don't change them if they weren't open minded about it in the first place.
Avvy
Doomheim
#190 - 2016-02-16 17:36:44 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:


People are still dissapointed at losing their freighter after years of playing. Time don't change them if they weren't open minded about it in the first place.


There's no point dwelling on the past, they should just think about what happened, learn from it an move forward.
Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#191 - 2016-02-16 17:40:54 UTC
Avvy wrote:
Eli Stan wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
That way of progressing (rather than grinding for or paying for "skills/experience" like in other games) slowed the game down, and gave actions meaning.


Am I correct in thinking that you would object to SP trading even if the Extractors were free? That is, don't involve any real-world money cost? (And would you object to SP trading if PLEX and AUR didn't exist at all?)


The extractors not being free don't matter, although they are not cosmetic items they are just containers.


Okay, so what I'm hearing is that you don't object to there being an AUR cost associated with SP trading - rather, you object to SP trading being possible at all.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#192 - 2016-02-16 18:23:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Eli Stan wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
That way of progressing (rather than grinding for or paying for "skills/experience" like in other games) slowed the game down, and gave actions meaning.


Am I correct in thinking that you would object to SP trading even if the Extractors were free? That is, don't involve any real-world money cost? (And would you object to SP trading if PLEX and AUR didn't exist at all?)


If they were free (meaning someone could extract from a toon they own and give to another they own at a cost, or give away for free to some other play) then no, I would not object. If they dropped from NPCs I would not object either. Skill points don't mean much and are not sacrosanct.

But the way this has been done creates a source of wealth that wasn't' easily tapped before. A source exclusively in the hands of established players (like me, i have 4 accounts), one that regenerates itself at the tune of 2200 sp per hour, and one that stacks yet more wealth into a game that already has WAY too many wealth (including isk) faucets.

Too much wealth (no matter how it's distributed) cheapens everything in the game. at current prices and not counting the 20bil worth I've extracted from un-used alts, i'm sitting on a couple hundred BILLION isk in total SP. I can prune my 4 main characters and keep myself in game time for a long time (again not including tat i already harvested, btw I'm not going to harvest more right now, jsut saying).

There is zero compelling reason for CCP to hand more in game wealth to people like me, and all for useless skill points new players don't even know how to use? That means it's just a cash grab.
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#193 - 2016-02-16 18:25:20 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:

Skill injected newbies will experience the same things those lottery winners did. That's what I was saying to you. TIME is valuable, and taking time to build up makes for better players, and better experiences for those players.
Too bad that you are part of the problem and not the solution.
Jenn aSide wrote:
I've got 20 bil in my wallet just from selling unwanted SP from alts I don't even use, and this is without touching my main characters (the 4 I use everytime I log in) or the 4 other alts I sometimes use. But last night it was like 'what's the point, it's not like I need the isk lol'.
If you feel so strongly that it's a bad mechanic that is bad for new players, STOP EXTRACTING AND SELLING YOUR SP!

Mr Epeen Cool
Avvy
Doomheim
#194 - 2016-02-16 18:27:05 UTC
Eli Stan wrote:
Avvy wrote:
Eli Stan wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
That way of progressing (rather than grinding for or paying for "skills/experience" like in other games) slowed the game down, and gave actions meaning.


Am I correct in thinking that you would object to SP trading even if the Extractors were free? That is, don't involve any real-world money cost? (And would you object to SP trading if PLEX and AUR didn't exist at all?)


The extractors not being free don't matter, although they are not cosmetic items they are just containers.


Okay, so what I'm hearing is that you don't object to there being an AUR cost associated with SP trading - rather, you object to SP trading being possible at all.



I hope I don't object to sp trading, done enough of it myself.

All I'm saying here is that although extractors are not cosmetic I don't really see an issue as they are only empty containers.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#195 - 2016-02-16 18:30:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Mr Epeen wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:

Skill injected newbies will experience the same things those lottery winners did. That's what I was saying to you. TIME is valuable, and taking time to build up makes for better players, and better experiences for those players.
Too bad that you are part of the problem and not the solution.
Jenn aSide wrote:
I've got 20 bil in my wallet just from selling unwanted SP from alts I don't even use, and this is without touching my main characters (the 4 I use everytime I log in) or the 4 other alts I sometimes use. But last night it was like 'what's the point, it's not like I need the isk lol'.
If you feel so strongly that it's a bad mechanic that is bad for new players, STOP EXTRACTING AND SELLING YOUR SP!

Mr Epeen Cool


Nope. CCP provides a way to do things, I take advantage. I run incursions too (and those are too lucrative). I'm not in charge of CCP (or responsbile for the detrimental affects on other people that come from CCP decisions). SP trading is not against the EULA, so I'm going to make use of it when I want to.

I'm saying it would have been way smarted to not allow this in the 1st place. Since they do, I'm going to abuse the hell out of it.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#196 - 2016-02-16 18:53:40 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:

Skill injected newbies will experience the same things those lottery winners did. That's what I was saying to you. TIME is valuable, and taking time to build up makes for better players, and better experiences for those players.
Too bad that you are part of the problem and not the solution.
Jenn aSide wrote:
I've got 20 bil in my wallet just from selling unwanted SP from alts I don't even use, and this is without touching my main characters (the 4 I use everytime I log in) or the 4 other alts I sometimes use. But last night it was like 'what's the point, it's not like I need the isk lol'.
If you feel so strongly that it's a bad mechanic that is bad for new players, STOP EXTRACTING AND SELLING YOUR SP!

Mr Epeen Cool


Nope. CCP provides a way to do things, I take advantage. I run incursions too (and those are too lucrative). I'm not in charge of CCP (or responsbile for the detrimental affects on other people that come from CCP decisions). SP trading is not against the EULA, so I'm going to make use of it when I want to.

I'm saying it would have been way smarted to not allow this in the 1st place. Since they do, I'm going to abuse the hell out of it.


So you are too selfish to ride the high horse you display on the forum. Isn't that great...
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#197 - 2016-02-16 19:08:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Frostys Virpio wrote:


So you are too selfish to ride the high horse you display on the forum. Isn't that great...


What possible affect could I have? Unlike some, I don't think my not doing something (or leaving) will have the least affect. Now, if it did, I would, but my options or "adapt" or "leave", so I'm adapting.

But adapting doesn't mean 'stop telling the truth'.

In fact, I'm adapting the exact same way you Goons did with Dominion, Aegis, Jump Fatigue, buffed exhumers and the rest. Many of your compatriots tried to tell CCP some of the changes they did were bad deals.. Did you all not use those features in useless protest?

Or did you all use them and SHOW CCP how bad it was?
Avvy
Doomheim
#198 - 2016-02-16 19:12:51 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:


So you are too selfish to ride the high horse you display on the forum. Isn't that great...


What possible affect could I have? Unlike some, I don't think my not doing something (or leaving) will have the least affect. Now, if it did, I would, but my options or "adapt" or "leave", so I'm adapting.

But adapting doesn't mean 'stop telling the truth'.

In fact, I'm adapting the exact same way you Goons did with Dominion, Aegis, Jump Fatigue, buffed exhumers and the rest. Many of your compatriots tried to tell CCP some of the changes they did were bad deals.. Did you all not use those features in useless protest?

Or did you all use them and SHOW CCP how bad it was?


Adapting is one thing, but moaning about it and adapting is another.

If you use the system, then you've accepted the system albeit reluctantly.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#199 - 2016-02-16 19:13:56 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:


So you are too selfish to ride the high horse you display on the forum. Isn't that great...


What possible affect could I have? Unlike some, I don't think my not doing something (or leaving) will have the least affect. Now, if it did, I would, but my options or "adapt" or "leave", so I'm adapting.

But adpating doesn't mean 'stop telling the truth'.

In fact, I'm adapting the exact same way you Goons did with Dominion, Aegis, Jump Fatigue, buffed exhumers and the rest. Many of your compatriots tried to tell CCP some of the changes they did were bad deals.. Did you all not use those features in useless protest?

Or did you all use them and SHOW CCP how bad it was?


You would pretty much have the same effect as CCP would have if they forgo going ahead with a proven business model by the big player in the industry. How can you even try to argue they should not follow what EA, Blizz and co. do when you are too selfish to give yourself as an example of righteous action in face of apparently broken and evil new possibility?

You would have no effect? Well so does CCP and that's why they will pursue those change because they are a business just like your alt group are a "business" by themselves. You run it to turn a profit in ISK to pay for your gametime or anyone else for that matter. You are "walking the miles in their shoes" right now and decided to go as they did instead of following your righteous way of not succumbing to the attraction of revenue in the name of a more "pure" environment.
David Semris
Doomheim
#200 - 2016-02-16 19:14:39 UTC
David Semris wrote:
My secondary account character is being biomassed, my main will follow later this week.

I see no point in playing anymore, I have invested (real life money) in injectors and maxed out last skills I have ever wanted / planned to have. I have had around 55 billions ISKs in wallet and all the ships I need/want. More importantly I can buy everything for real life money, there is simply no point in doing anything anymore. But people will still not call it pay to win (just because you can beat other player in pvp because you are personally better skilled player doesn´t change the fact you can now buy basically anything in this game for real life money, you know...).

So at the moment I need to sell rest of my items and I have already bought like 45 PLEX (hopefully I can get much higher when I sell the 30 mils skill points I can) I will distribute between my friends before I leave (or I could take them to shuttle for a fly Lol). At least they can stop farming for a while (farming to plex account) and actually have some fun.

Have fun guys o7


Aaaand it was done, at the end 66 PLEXes were divided between friends, biomass time. Big smile

Farewell o7