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Breaking in tier 3 battlecruisers - Something is wrong...
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Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#21 - 2012-01-08 12:19:10 UTC
Stating that t3 BCs have weak tanks misses part of the picture - tank, meaning survivability, is also a function of mobility. That's why you can argue that the "tankiest" pirate BS isn't the Rattlesnake, it's the Machariel.

The high mobility of the t3 BCs gives them more survivability then their EHP numbers suggest, so describingt hem as "paper-thin" isn't the whole story. That said, I don't think it's created a particular problem, and if it has, it's probably unique to the Tornado, rather than the clas as a whole.
Imrik86
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#22 - 2012-01-08 23:35:13 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Stating that t3 BCs have weak tanks misses part of the picture - tank, meaning survivability, is also a function of mobility. That's why you can argue that the "tankiest" pirate BS isn't the Rattlesnake, it's the Machariel.

The high mobility of the t3 BCs gives them more survivability then their EHP numbers suggest, so describingt hem as "paper-thin" isn't the whole story. That said, I don't think it's created a particular problem, and if it has, it's probably unique to the Tornado, rather than the clas as a whole.


Tornado is obviously OP since it marries Ridiculous Arty Alpha + Ridiculous Speed and Agility, with Small Sig and Scan Res to top it off.
Mars Theran
Foreign Interloper
#23 - 2012-01-10 16:42:37 UTC
Pinky Denmark wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:


  1. Face these blobs with ships with large EHP, which is hard to alpha.
  2. Get 100 km bookmarks at various spots on gates, to allow for easier "warp directly to enemy" solutions
  3. Charge them in an interceptor. Their tracking is horrible.
  4. Charge them in a Vagabond, or similar heavy-but-fast ship. Their tracking is horrible, and you will soak whatever damage they do inflict.
  5. Bomb them with a bomber or two. Covert ops cloaks allow you to get the perfect sneak-up, and bombs will wreak havoc on a lightly tanked, battlecruiser-sized ship. To clear the 15 km blast radius in 10 seconds they would need to be already moving at > 1.5 km/s, and that is unlikely.
  6. Bring an Arbitrator with you, equipped with Tracking Disruptors. Ruin their optimal/falloff ranges.
  7. Bring a (heh) Celestis with you, equipped with Sensor Disruptors. It's cheap, and what can't target you, can't hurt you. Jamming support also works, but is less reliable.



1 - Tier 3 will land, alpha strike and leave before a large EHP fleet can get a lock (best case = draw)
2 - Enemy will use fast ships cloaked and uncloaked for constantly new warp-ins and will only work if defending
3 - Charge them with Interceptors = http://bdeal.org/killboard/index.php/kill_detail/266299/
4 - Charge them in Vagabonds/Cynabals = http://bdeal.org/killboard/index.php/kill_detail/267072/
5 - Bombs only work in 0.0 and did I mention HOW fast these tier 3 battlecruisers moved and how they never sit still for long?
6 - ecm cruisers and recons will get insta-annihilated unless you make sure to have more e-war than they have tier 3 battlecruisers

Problem is that your theories does not work in practice because tier 3 battlecruisers have some major advantages on top of being cheap hardhitters...


Maybe you should reconsider charging straight at them, as I assume you are doing. In theory, outside of SiSi things are not going to be so cut and dried as in it; so elements of the unknown will start to take place, and you will have more battlefield advantage.

Besides that, if you show up in a SiSi pocket; you can bet that an existing ship is going to lock you up. You charge, have no transversal, and you likely won't survive because they have the advantage. Same thing would happen in Lowsec if they were sitting on an undock, and you came out of station, waited for timer; then turned to charge them.

Maybe that's not what you are doing; but I don't see any bonus to tracking here a battleship couldn't have.

I haven't seen them in action yet, but really they are just EHP and DPS. You need to lock them up faster and DPS them. Try a Maelstrom or Use drones and a Domi. Different ship = Requires different tactics.

People will figure it out before long, (if they haven't already); and these thing will go down like flies; just like everthing else, when someone knows the counter to it.
zubzubzubzubzubzubzubzub
Mars Theran
Foreign Interloper
#24 - 2012-01-10 16:52:54 UTC
Pinky Denmark wrote:
I guess that explains strategic cruisers easily having 400-600k EHP, so you're saying CCP will be reflecting on tier 3s for a few years and then making them balanced if we're lucky they haven't forgotten? Lol

I guess they want people to sign up for impressive ships so they can cash in for developing Dust...


I lived in a C6 Pulsar, and the only way you could get a Tengu to anywhere near that EHP there was by ****fitting it and losing all your DPS, while pumping it up with Officer Mods.

Practical Buffer fit with okay in-Pulsar PvP capability, is about 140K EHP. You can do 200K more or less, and push it a bit higher; but you start seriously compromising everything but your EHP. Basically, you're a Brickwall Buffer tank with nothing else.

These fits require Tech 2 rigs too.

Outside of a Pulsar, that 140K EHP Buffer drops quite a bit, but it's still a good fit.

I can't figure where you people get these numbers from, and just sorta have to assume you pull them out of a hat.
zubzubzubzubzubzubzubzub
Tub Chil
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#25 - 2012-01-10 19:29:56 UTC
The only thing I don't like about tier 3 BC-s is that they are waaay too mobile.
their speed should/agility should be between top tier cruisers and battlecruisers, then they would be ok
Midnight Hope
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#26 - 2012-01-10 19:39:52 UTC
Odd how no one mentions their paper thin tank.

Tier 3 BC have around the same tank a T1 cruiser.

Their mobility is the only thing that makes them survivable. If they took that away you would all be bitching about their lack of tank...and if they fixed that you would end up with Harbi's, Hurri's and Brutixes.

Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#27 - 2012-01-11 10:32:14 UTC
  1. Tengu's don't live on their high EHP, but being uncatchable and hi-resisted while still hitting the enemy
  2. Loki and Proteus can get EHP better than a Damnation, while doing decent dps and excellent Ewar - Combine with a logistic and you can forget about breaking them unless you have your own T3 with logi support or a serious surprise blobfest.
  3. The tank on tier 3 battlecruisers are supposed to be the drawback of having better fleetdps (no drones) than most battleships. In addition CCP made them faster than most T1 and T2 cruisers, gave them longer and much faster targeting with plenty slots for helpfull modules.
  4. I still think it's a little too much enabling these to fly with 8 of the biggest subcapital weapons, but if CCP would at least give the hulls stats similar to all other battlecruisers and maybe even a little heavier I would actually never have complained about them. Currently they are just near impossible to catch and if they work in fleets you'll never catch more than a few of them before the rest are long gone laughing for slaughtering way more than they ever risc losing.

Pinky
ITTigerClawIK
Galactic Rangers
#28 - 2012-01-11 11:00:46 UTC
Pinky Denmark wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:


  1. Face these blobs with ships with large EHP, which is hard to alpha.
  2. Get 100 km bookmarks at various spots on gates, to allow for easier "warp directly to enemy" solutions
  3. Charge them in an interceptor. Their tracking is horrible.
  4. Charge them in a Vagabond, or similar heavy-but-fast ship. Their tracking is horrible, and you will soak whatever damage they do inflict.
  5. Bomb them with a bomber or two. Covert ops cloaks allow you to get the perfect sneak-up, and bombs will wreak havoc on a lightly tanked, battlecruiser-sized ship. To clear the 15 km blast radius in 10 seconds they would need to be already moving at > 1.5 km/s, and that is unlikely.
  6. Bring an Arbitrator with you, equipped with Tracking Disruptors. Ruin their optimal/falloff ranges.
  7. Bring a (heh) Celestis with you, equipped with Sensor Disruptors. It's cheap, and what can't target you, can't hurt you. Jamming support also works, but is less reliable.



1 - Tier 3 will land, alpha strike and leave before a large EHP fleet can get a lock (best case = draw)
2 - Enemy will use fast ships cloaked and uncloaked for constantly new warp-ins and will only work if defending
3 - Charge them with Interceptors = http://bdeal.org/killboard/index.php/kill_detail/266299/
4 - Charge them in Vagabonds/Cynabals = http://bdeal.org/killboard/index.php/kill_detail/267072/
5 - Bombs only work in 0.0 and did I mention HOW fast these tier 3 battlecruisers moved and how they never sit still for long?
6 - ecm cruisers and recons will get insta-annihilated unless you make sure to have more e-war than they have tier 3 battlecruisers

Problem is that your theories does not work in practice because tier 3 battlecruisers have some major advantages on top of being cheap hardhitters...


well if you are going to charge the CLOSE RANGE TEIR 3 WITH BLASTERS of course you are going to die horribly, would have been better to keep range where he could not do anything lol :-P
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#29 - 2012-01-11 13:28:46 UTC
You guys focus on the wrong part - that post was made as a reply to Petrus suggesting ineffecient counters...
No doubt those pilots failed but they were just trying to get tackle for their fleets.

So read up on the real arguments and give us a constructive input on the tier 3 battlecruiser stats plz

Pinky
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