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Nano ruptures, Interceptors, or Faction frigates all do the *AF* thing better than AFs do.
As for the hearsay, my post may have been a slight exaggeration. The fact of the matter is that for any other purpose, other frigates can do the same job, and others, better.

Go back for the past couple pages and you'll see that's exactly what is being proposed by people.
In fact, that's essentially what you're saying right in that very post.

I mean, my Brutix can beat the crap out of an Astarte, right?
Wrong, and it's not even close. So naturally, a Rifter shitting all over a Wolf is just fine.

At the Cruiser level it generally takes two T1 cruisers to kill a HAC. Depends on HAC/Cruiser fits, but the point is that it takes more than one T1 Cruiser. At the BC level it's more of the same, but depending on the setups and ships involved it may take even more BCs.

So no, I don't feel like the new AFs stretch their ability to **** on T1 frigates.
It takes a couple or more (depending on ships) to take down a good AF now, and it will take a couple or more later.
No change.

Well sorry if I feel there IS a difference between needing pair of rifters to even have a CHANCE at taking down a well piloted wolf, as compared to needing a gang of them. I am of the opinion that is a bad thing for frigates.


Prometheus you've led me to believe that you care less about the damages that your changes are going to have on low sec, and more about how you are going to look if even CCP shoots down your suggestions as the shortsighted, poorly concieved ideas that they are.

@Darkstar
Yea bro, that Stabber better be able to beat up the Vagabond pretty well too don't you think?

@Michael
I don't know what kinda Myrms you've been flyin

Why would an Astarte be buffer tanked...
I'm assuming you're aware the Astarte is the 900+dps variant with the massive tank, not the Eos.
You typically don't go roaming around, spot an Astarte, and think it's a great idea to try and kill it with your Myrm.
Just like I don't go roaming around in my Incursus looking for Enyo kills.
If you're going to take it on, you've got a fit specifically for the occasion, or support on hand (or linked )

COULD you do it? Yes. But it's not likely.
Like I said earlier, it's like pitting a Vexor against an Ishtar.
COULD you? Yes. But it's not likely.

Anyways, getting off topic here

I'm now confused about what you are all arguing about!

Prom: If someone wanted to bring an AF on a 0.0 run, with the mwd role bonus but without the extra tweaks on SISI, would you still laugh?

@Anja
Short answer, yes.

AFs aren't to be compared to any other frigates. Any frig that comes in range gets the floor wiped with their faces. If not, they AF pilot is damn awful, underskilled, or simply out-fit/flown.

AFs are to be toe to toe with Destroyer hulls and T1 Cruisers.
After the Destroyer buff ALL frigates absolutely get shredded unless the same reasoning as above is applied.

Adding the MWD bonus and ONLY the MWD bonus wouldn't change anything.
The awful ships will remain god awful, and the couple good ships will merely get a little bit better.

There is no point in a slow & fat frigate that doesn't have some sort of combination of tank, gank & tackle.
Currently, that combo is only possible on 3 AFs, each lacking in one or another department (Ishkur, Vengeace, Jag).
The other 6 are pretty much useless in comparison except for those who like to dive even deeper into their tiny niche.
There is always another frigate that performs close to them (if not better) with less risk and sacrifice.

The extra slots & bonuses allow to compete with the bigger fish they were intended to.
No other frigate can even dream of getting up to a Cruiser or Destroyer on a regular basis.
And lastly, as it's been stated over and over, the extra slots/bonuses balance them across their own class.

Now am I saying that some ships aren't going to need a buff (as repeated over and over), of course.
But like I said, those (3x Pirate frigs, low tier Cruisers, even low tier t1 frigs) have been in need for quite some time, and the AF changes aren't going to change that fact but rather be the exclamation point for the situation.


@Hirana
What projectile balancing do you speak of? Because I'm pretty much Mr.****-Projectiles and I no longer see a problem with them. In fact, the Crucible patch paired with Nulls potential increase to 40% (instead of 25%) leads me to believe you're just talking straight out of your ass with no pants on.

Null-Monkeys
Now now, there's no need to be a pretentious little *****. If these changes were proposed by someone who lived their whole life in low sec (they could very well be), you would be just as thick but you'd have nobody to blame.

And yes Sisi is a place to test ship mechanics, for bugs, and for any potentially overpowering tendencies.
Guess what, so far there is nothing. Nothing! There is nothing new and overpowering brought on by these changes.
You want to put a massive tank on your frigate with pirate implants & t3 links? Go right ahead! Nothing is stopping you from doing that on TQ right now.

I've yet to be shown how invaluably overpowering said 5 mid Hawk is.
So until I start seeing SWARMS of Hookbill fleets spraying out all manner of ewar and decimating the masses, I invite you to take a look at this link and report back:http://tinyurl.com/3scu2dz

As for the 10-15 Jags/Hookbills...
Wait a second.. You mean to tell me that a mass of frigates, with logi support no less, can kill things?
I guess that means the secret is out. Guys pack your stuff, we just need a dozen crappy ships and some logistics. Problem's solved!

I'll make sure I pass the message on that you've no idea what you're talking about.
Laughs will be had, and ships will be tweaked

You know, the imbalance that has made the vast majority of ships used in competitive PvP Minmatar, or did you think that people were just cute when they started calling it Winmatar?
Take off 4/2/1 from damage of L/M/S ammo and see how it plays out.

Pfft, been calling you lot that for months, got tired of using sheep so mixed it up .. besides, why am I not allowed to be a **** when you have been acting like one for 10+ pages?
By the way, a person who has lived in LS would NEVER propose an over-buff that essentially wrecks his backyard so no they very well could NOT be.

That is your problem, your experience is limited to null warfare so you are unaccustomed to the power that twin-web or web-TD yields on the small scale. The complete disconnect from the rest of the sandbox is exactly why a uniform CSM should never have been allowed.

No I am saying that an equal sized or even larger gang will not be able to kill them without very specific counters (ie. alpha dessies, aka. Trash).
AF's are already pretty damn good when used right, there are some mediocre ones but buffing the whole line to make those 'acceptable' pushes the excellent into the stratosphere .. not that you'd know since you seem to want/need a strong FoTM to wet your pants.

But go ahead, break the game so you can have your mini-cruiser for blob fights .. don't mind everyone else, we'll muddle through. Monkey.

I have not played eve for long time now but my mate told me about the AS buff and showed it to me on the test server.

here are my opinions:
the ishkur is the weakest on the test server. he gets the least from the boost. The drones still die in a matter of a second when another frigate targets them.

It also is strange that the wolf gets a low and the enyo a mid slot. The additional low slot on the wolf is not very minmatar like. The wolf should get the mid slow, especially because the base hull (the rifter) also has 3 mid slots.

Then why do you keep calling them crappy ships? Just because they can't go toe to toe with cruisers, and you feel this is the #1 priority, so SENSIBLE strength in relation to other frigates and destroyers takes a back seat? It's absolutely OK that they mop the floor against any other solo frig class right now. But now needing more than two faction frigs of the exact same cost as an AF, and still probably losing them both to a single AF, is really really idiotic and overpowered.

MWD = good bonus idea, and even though it isn't their role in game it does make them more versatile in null for you, since that seems to be your only concern and not what the effects on low sec will be. Leave it at that, give retribution a mid, and Keep . It . Moving . The entire class does NOT need a buff, if they can already solo absolutely anything their own size. We enjoy our balanced frigate combat, its the main reason a lot of people play this game, and is the way a lot of new PVP'ers start off and enjoy fighting. AF pilots don't feel they are underpowered at all. Wake up to yourself Prom. Your idea sucks.

The ishkur receives least from the buff as it is already one of the most used and most balanced assault frigates.
The difference between the enyo and the wolf is that the enyo being a blaster boat, needs the 3rd midslot for a web so it can close the range gap and apply its DPS, whereas the wolf with its falloff bonus does not. The lowslot makes sense for the wolf over another midslot.