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Old camera option will be removed Mars 9'th

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Daemun Khanid
Corbeau de sang
#101 - 2016-02-14 00:44:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Daemun Khanid
TigerXtrm wrote:
Daemun Khanid wrote:
Not when the offset moves your ship entirely behind windows which considering how window/information heavy eve is becomes a real issue. Convenient that the videos ccp have made to try and make the new cameras look cool are all completely void of interface elements.


You can turn that off for christ sake...

Just like the vast majority, if not all of the other things people in this thread are complaining about. Field of view, zooming speed, speed offset, all options that are readily available for you to turn off in the options menu.


Have you even tried the new camera? The offset is NOT TURNED OFF DURING TRACKING CAMERA USE. The only option available is speed related offset. Do you even know how to use tracking camera or dscan because you come across as someone who doesn't even undock. Do you want me to spell it for you nice and slowly? You sit here trying to ridicule ppl for their opinion when A. Their opinions are the majority and you are the vast minority as indicated by 16+ pages in the official thread and countless others in other locations all expressing the same valid concerns and B. You haven't even bothered to see what the issue's with the camera are and don't even have a clue what you're talking about.

Seriously, your troll level is 1/10. Move along because you fail.

And you DO realize why the options that are there ARE there don't you? They weren't there when this camera was put on the test server. They were put the because of ppl doing EXACTLY what they are doing right now. Expressing their concerns and problems with the new camera when it was on the test server so CCP added them. Now that the camera is on the live server it's become more of an issue because those settings are enabled by default when in all honesty they should have just been removed completely. The most disappointing thing right now is that it has take much longer than it should have and CCP have been quite slow in accepting legitimate concerns and have instead issued an arbitrary deadline warning us that in 1 month we're stuck with something that is badly broken.

Omfg no wonder you're the way you are. Goonswarm, I should have guessed.

Daemun of Khanid
Ashterothi
The Order of Thelemic Ascension
The Invited
#102 - 2016-02-14 01:00:34 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Ashterothi wrote:
Please understand, these kinds of changes are going to be necessary

What's needed is for them to refactor the code so that the working camera also works with the new content.


This is completely not true. This is the exact backwards thinking that got us to the point we were at two years ago. Things have to be well built, designed, and be extensible. Much of the oldest stuff in EVE is none of those. While you may be used to it, that doesn't make it valid in the direction they are clearly going.

However, that is an opportunity. They are posting frequently in their main thread improvements and things they are working on. You will be pleased to know that most of those concerns are either fixable through settings now, or on that list of things they are tackling.

Watch me live for all your Empyrean news and analysis!

Ashterothi
The Order of Thelemic Ascension
The Invited
#103 - 2016-02-14 01:01:38 UTC
Bumblefck wrote:
Ashterothi wrote:

Instead of complaining here, or requesting that you be exempt from the change, hunt for the actual bugs and report them.

Good reports include steps to replicate, images and even videos are awesome. Try to recreate the issue in different ways and isolate what does and doesn't cause the issue you are having.





My camera-related bug for you here is a wastepaper bin splattered with vomit and a pounding headache - how's that for your replication stage?


I mean I suppose it is fine if you want the bug to persist...

Watch me live for all your Empyrean news and analysis!

CCP Darwin
C C P
C C P Alliance
#104 - 2016-02-14 01:22:56 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Darwin
Bumblefck wrote:
...and what about the issues of motion sickness that some of us face? I hope CCP doesn't just arbitrarily remove the old camera system and thereby render the game unplayable for those that are affected by this.

That would be an issue the team working on the camera has to address. I am not part of that team.

I will say that they are working to address concerns raised in the appropriate feedback thread for camera changes. I recommend posting your feedback there if you would like to help guide where they're headed on it.

CCP Darwin  •  Senior Software Engineer, Art & Graphics, EVE Online  •  @mark_wilkins
Annemariela Antonela
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#105 - 2016-02-14 01:24:52 UTC
Daemun Khanid wrote:
TigerXtrm wrote:
Daemun Khanid wrote:
Not when the offset moves your ship entirely behind windows which considering how window/information heavy eve is becomes a real issue. Convenient that the videos ccp have made to try and make the new cameras look cool are all completely void of interface elements.


You can turn that off for christ sake...

Just like the vast majority, if not all of the other things people in this thread are complaining about. Field of view, zooming speed, speed offset, all options that are readily available for you to turn off in the options menu.


Have you even tried the new camera? The offset is NOT TURNED OFF DURING TRACKING CAMERA USE. The only option available is speed related offset. Do you even know how to use tracking camera or dscan because you come across as someone who doesn't even undock. Do you want me to spell it for you nice and slowly? You sit here trying to ridicule ppl for their opinion when A. Their opinions are the majority and you are the vast minority as indicated by 16+ pages in the official thread and countless others in other locations all expressing the same valid concerns and B. You haven't even bothered to see what the issue's with the camera are and don't even have a clue what you're talking about.

Seriously, your troll level is 1/10. Move along because you fail.

And you DO realize why the options that are there ARE there don't you? They weren't there when this camera was put on the test server. They were put the because of ppl doing EXACTLY what they are doing right now. Expressing their concerns and problems with the new camera when it was on the test server so CCP added them. Now that the camera is on the live server it's become more of an issue because those settings are enabled by default when in all honesty they should have just been removed completely. The most disappointing thing right now is that it has take much longer than it should have and CCP have been quite slow in accepting legitimate concerns and have instead issued an arbitrary deadline warning us that in 1 month we're stuck with something that is badly broken.

Omfg no wonder you're the way you are. Goonswarm, I should have guessed.


Each of your posts regarding the camera are spot-on, Daemun. I share your perspective 100%

I have my view exactly where I need it to be. The "in-space" view is a square perhaps 15% of my total monitor real estate. Why? Because watching the stuff in space tells you so little. I don't click stuff in space to interact with it. I don't "try to click on fast-moving brackets" because I am not an idiot. The ship marker at the center of your view is your AIMING RETICLE for Dscan. The new camera seems to be like trying to use a telescope with the side of your eye while drunk.

I think it is only rational to conclude that CCP wishes to make in-system intel slower to perform and thus relay to one's fleet.

“Culture is like a smog. To live within it, you must breathe some of it in and, inevitably, be contaminated.”

― Richard K. Morgan, Altered Carbon
Daemun Khanid
Corbeau de sang
#106 - 2016-02-14 01:28:48 UTC
CCP Darwin wrote:
Bumblefck wrote:
...and what about the issues of motion sickness that some of us face? I hope CCP doesn't just arbitrarily remove the old camera system and thereby render the game unplayable for those that are affected by this.

That would be an issue the team working on the camera has to address. I am not part of that team.

I will say that they are working to address concerns raised in the appropriate feedback thread for camera changes. I recommend posting your feedback there if you would like to help guide where they're headed on it.


Thank you for taking the time to respond to concerns that you are capable of addressing. It's appreciated to hear some sort of feedback and acknowledgment that you are monitoring these threads and ppl's concerns. I realize they are probably quite busy but it would nice to hear something from the camera team regarding what they are working on and their take on the issue's being presented.

Daemun of Khanid
CCP Darwin
C C P
C C P Alliance
#107 - 2016-02-14 01:30:32 UTC
Daemun Khanid wrote:
I realize they are probably quite busy but it would nice to hear something from the camera team regarding what they are working on and their take on the issue's being presented.


Have you looked in that other thread? Aside from a dev blog posted earlier in the week they have been posting there to describe what they're working on, in part.

CCP Darwin  •  Senior Software Engineer, Art & Graphics, EVE Online  •  @mark_wilkins
Daemun Khanid
Corbeau de sang
#108 - 2016-02-14 01:35:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Daemun Khanid
Annemariela Antonela wrote:

Each of your posts regarding the camera are spot-on, Daemun. I share your perspective 100%

I have my view exactly where I need it to be. The "in-space" view is a square perhaps 15% of my total monitor real estate. Why? Because watching the stuff in space tells you so little. I don't click stuff in space to interact with it. I don't "try to click on fast-moving brackets" because I am not an idiot. The ship marker at the center of your view is your AIMING RETICLE for Dscan. The new camera seems to be like trying to use a telescope with the side of your eye while drunk.

I think it is only rational to conclude that CCP wishes to make in-system intel slower to perform and thus relay to one's fleet.


As scary as it is to consider I'm afraid that might be a part of their design decision as well. Particularly once they confirmed that the camera no longer tracking ships that run away into warp was a intentional design decision. A decision that they later (thankfully) made an about face on. But the fact that they made that decision regarding game mechanics to begin with is enough to fuel concern about their design/content direction. Then you combine that with the fact that with the new "idea" they are testing out involves progressive filling of the dscan window one ship at a time and it's looking all too true. Can you imagine scanning down the location of a 30-40 ship fleet and having to sit there and wait while the results trickle in one by one?! OMG they'd all be gone by the time you even had enough intel to act upon. The last thing we need is to make it easier for ppl to escape pursuit. Next thing you know they'd be nerfing scrams and disruptors, removing warp core stab penalties and adding +warp core strength to all ships. Then we'll be back 10 years ago in EvE when no one lost a ship unless it was because they wanted to suffer an "honorable" defeat.

Daemun of Khanid
Daemun Khanid
Corbeau de sang
#109 - 2016-02-14 01:42:52 UTC
CCP Darwin wrote:
Daemun Khanid wrote:
I realize they are probably quite busy but it would nice to hear something from the camera team regarding what they are working on and their take on the issue's being presented.


Have you looked in that other thread? Aside from a dev blog posted earlier in the week they have been posting there to describe what they're working on, in part.


Oh I've looked there frequently. Cool In fact I've even posted a screen shot and video for reference. Unfortunately most of the responses I've seen (and there have been scarce few) haven't really addressed the larger concerns nor have they done anything to lift the veil of secrecy around what seems to be guiding their design decision in regards to making dscan intel more difficult to obtain. I have seen them ask for feed back in regards to nausea/vertigo etc however they asked for that same feedback over a month ago on test server forums and received LOTS of it. Now here we are on live server and they seem to have ignored all the feedback they have already received.

Daemun of Khanid
Daemun Khanid
Corbeau de sang
#110 - 2016-02-14 01:49:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Daemun Khanid
Will just add this since I already submitted that post...

In regards to camera offset when using tracking camera I've seen no response.
In response to the lack of toggled tracking camera the only response we've gotten is... "here, instead of clicking something then hitting C, hold V and then click it and watch your dscan results start automatically trickling in... one ... line ... at ... a .. time. But HEY, it starts dscan for you, that's great right? I mean we're ignoring the fact that the initial complaint involves all the extra key presses and we responded by just changing which keys you press and we're either ignoring or are unaware of the fact that the tracking camera is also used for other things like situational awareness in a fleet battle." It's obvious they are working on the camera and I think we all applaud that fact, but the judgement calls and decisions being made are questionable at best.

I mean its painfully apparent that the best approach they could have made to this new camera code would have been to emulate the old camera as close as possible and THEN start making more cinematic options available as they are tested and tweeked. Most importantly, making them OPTIONS that the player has the chance to turn ON. Not broken or unwanted features that we're forced to turn off.

Edit: Forgot to mention the 180 flip of the camera accompanied by an extreme zoom out every time you track something and then try to manual adjust the camera. Haven't received any response on that either and I even posted a video.

Daemun of Khanid
Lfod Shi
Lfod's Ratting and Salvage
#111 - 2016-02-14 04:01:10 UTC
CCP Darwin wrote:
Daemun Khanid wrote:
I realize they are probably quite busy but it would nice to hear something from the camera team regarding what they are working on and their take on the issue's being presented.


Have you looked in that other thread? Aside from a dev blog posted earlier in the week they have been posting there to describe what they're working on, in part.


Unfortunately many of the concerns raised in that thread have yet to be acknowledged much less addressed. It leads to much confusion and consternation.

♪ They'll always be bloodclaws to me ♫
Lfod Shi
Lfod's Ratting and Salvage
#112 - 2016-02-14 04:08:39 UTC
Daemun Khanid wrote:


Edit: Forgot to mention the 180 flip of the camera accompanied by an extreme zoom out every time you track something and then try to manual adjust the camera. Haven't received any response on that either and I even posted a video.


That's my biggest issue with the tracking. Involuntary zooming is frustrating.

♪ They'll always be bloodclaws to me ♫
Graytin
Doomheim
#113 - 2016-02-14 04:28:36 UTC
Eanok wrote:
This is kind of sad news. Why cant my ship be the center of the screen like before? The new camera option is kind of nauseating. Kind of like how CCP hasn't made any changes recently to bring in new players, just push old ones away.



well truthfully its not CCP fault that new players don't stay

its the community the constant ganking and flat out harassment of a low skilled player that makes them want to leave before they even get out of career missions
CCP Darwin
C C P
C C P Alliance
#114 - 2016-02-14 04:32:58 UTC
Lfod Shi wrote:
Unfortunately many of the concerns raised in that thread have yet to be acknowledged much less addressed. It leads to much confusion and consternation.

Except for the fine members of our community team, posting on these forums is not a core part of our jobs, and it often takes time away from the work we're paid to do.

When you do see a developer respond on an issue, it's because they're personally motivated to engage in that way, and different developers feel differently comfortable doing so. I'm posting this message at 4:30 a.m. on a Sunday morning, and there's no reward, other than hoping that, by doing so, I can help you set your expectations reasonably.

Reading feedback is different.

So, don't expect to be individually thanked for your feedback, but do expect that when you post in a place developers have asked for feedback, even if you don't see a developer tag later in the thread, it'll be heard.

Whether the developer then makes the change you'd like to see is another matter, but you can be sure it'll be a question of where their professional judgment leads them, and not just arbitrary.

CCP Darwin  •  Senior Software Engineer, Art & Graphics, EVE Online  •  @mark_wilkins
Johan Civire
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#115 - 2016-02-14 04:34:57 UTC
Graytin wrote:
Eanok wrote:
This is kind of sad news. Why cant my ship be the center of the screen like before? The new camera option is kind of nauseating. Kind of like how CCP hasn't made any changes recently to bring in new players, just push old ones away.



well truthfully its not CCP fault that new players don't stay

its the community the constant ganking and flat out harassment of a low skilled player that makes them want to leave before they even get out of career missions





but.. but... that`s the fun...... Don`t you see it? This is why i do it. Just for that post you made :`)
Daemun Khanid
Corbeau de sang
#116 - 2016-02-14 04:46:56 UTC
CCP Darwin wrote:
Lfod Shi wrote:
Unfortunately many of the concerns raised in that thread have yet to be acknowledged much less addressed. It leads to much confusion and consternation.

Except for the fine members of our community team, posting on these forums is not a core part of our jobs, and it often takes time away from the work we're paid to do.

When you do see a developer respond on an issue, it's because they're personally motivated to engage in that way, and different developers feel differently comfortable doing so. I'm posting this message at 4:30 a.m. on a Sunday morning, and there's no reward, other than hoping that, by doing so, I can help you set your expectations reasonably.

Reading feedback is different.

So, don't expect to be individually thanked for your feedback, but do expect that when you post in a place developers have asked for feedback, even if you don't see a developer tag later in the thread, it'll be heard.

Whether the developer then makes the change you'd like to see is another matter, but you can be sure it'll be a question of where their professional judgment leads them, and not just arbitrary.



Thank you again for your time and contact Darwin. o7
Hopefully the dev's working on this project know that (speaking for my self here but I'm sure most agree) we understand that there's a lot work on their plate. We're just passionate about wanting EvE to a. be the best game it can be (as I'm sure they are as well) and b. be what we want it to be. (cause we're human) Blink
Have a good weekend and get some sleep so you'll be awake enough for us to keep hounding you on monday.
o7 to all.

Daemun of Khanid
Alastair Ormand
Mine all the things
#117 - 2016-02-14 05:20:26 UTC
I don't see the issue with the new camera. It's odd, but I got used to it fast. Why do so many people hate it?

I discourage running with scissors.
Daemun Khanid
Corbeau de sang
#118 - 2016-02-14 05:29:59 UTC
Check the feedback thread :)

Daemun of Khanid
ISD Buldath
#119 - 2016-02-14 05:56:49 UTC
Quote:
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I have removed an off topic post, and those quoting it.

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Hal Safon
Filthy Peasants
Intergalactic Space Hobos
#120 - 2016-02-14 07:54:44 UTC
Just reactivated my account after being gone for a 1.5 years. First thing I did was turn off the new camera and map (though I might try the map again). I did not like the new camera so I am sad to gear we will be losing the old one. I want my tracking camera, that was one of the best changes they made to the cameras system when they introduced it a couple of years ago.

I also don't understand why CCP needed to change the icons on the dashboard. I have no idea what anything does anymore. Seems like the UI could have been updated without changing all the icons.