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To whit, they are representative of how safe you can make it to operate using the current mechanics WHEN SOMEONE ELSE IS DOING THE HAULING YOU WON'T DO.

There is a lot of hauling RFF refuses to do, which is an inherent part of their risk reduction policies.

It's certainly possible to argue that none of that other hauling is necessary, but it's not an argument I have a side on and it wouldn't make things any less contentious in this thread :)

Representativeness of the sample does not stem from sample size. For starters.

this thread keeps on going in circles

MAKE PROPOSITIONS FFS

I'm out of this cancer thread

I have.

If CCP want to nerf the DCU then split the mod into 3. Hull, Armour and shield. Don't bother with the 33% buff to all ships, it isn't needed and causes a huge number of problems.

What kind of evidence do you want? That webbing freighters can be 100% reliably countered by a single suicide BB and that after the first bump lands webs are useless? Those enough for you?

Gather at least 2,786,739 jumps made by freighters, using all the current tools to protect themselves and see how many get killed.

Yeah that's a good place to start.

Representativeness of course stems from the qualities you want to measure (ie. It's representative if it accurately reflects the relevant qualities of the entire population). That's the primary consideration. Once that is known, the sample size you take from a population to measure that is absolutely critical to achieving a good analysis.

There may be differences in what is considered an important quality and clearly the RFF (Blue FF to include collateral >1 Billion) is not a measure of risk achieved by the whole hauling population. It's representative of RFF (and Blue and Black if you include those figures) and a good measure of the overall safety that can be achieved by anyone.

The claim in the thread was that 2.8 million jumps in highsec every year is not a representative sample, which is total rubbish. It is a perfectly good sample depending on what you are hoping to achieve from the data.

So RFF for <1 Billion collateral in highsec. Add in Blue FF for > 1Billion collateral in highsec and the level of safety they achieve is as objective as it can get unless you think they publish incorrect data.

Is that the same risk that all haulers achieve? Absolutely not, because other haulers don't necessarily manage risk as well as the RFF group. It is as good a representative data set of the level of risk that can be achieved (for a broad range of collateral amounts), no matter who is hauling.

The data I've been collecting for the last couple of weeks will be ready to publish shortly and since that looks at the risk for the whole hauling community passing through Uedama and Niarja, hopefully it will add some additional data that can be analysed several different ways. It is also a large sample size (though not a 100% sample, such as RFF data).

But if all other ships gain a 33% boost then yes, they lose out because relative to all otehr ships they are worse off. It makes perfect sense for a global ship chance to affect all ships, even if it makes gankers mad because it adds a small amount of additional effort for some ganks. At the end of the day if this was a playstyle you opposed being affected you'd be all for it.

Also, like you've previously said, freighters got nerfed when they rebalanced them before, so they are long overdue for a buff.

Yep, about the same as using statistics of formula 1 drivers to determine how good members of the general population are at racing. Beyond that it's actually likely that by RFF going to extra measures to makes themselves less likely to be chosen as a target, other freighters have a higher chance of being ganked. If RFF were the only people flying freighters you would likely see an increase there too, because nothing they do makes them immune to ganks.

At the end of the day it's impossible to be ungankable both before and after the change.

CCP are not increasing firepower so no, they don't lose out at all.

Not to mention freighters could never fit dcu

But I can see why not giving them 33%resists could be confusing to new players joining a year or so from now so reducing base hull hp would be better