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EveBoard, Skillpoints, .... implants?
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Lathael
Liga der aussergewoehnlichen Tattergreise
#1 - 2016-02-12 17:25:27 UTC
Dropped in skill rank from from 703 to 714 since the skill injectors hit the market.

Let's see how far I drop in the the next weeks.

Seems to work for CCP I assume that is good.

Now that we are one step more in the direction to simplify things can we get rid of attribute implants?
Lady Ayeipsia
BlueWaffe
#2 - 2016-02-12 17:30:45 UTC
But attribute implants are also tied to pirate implants as well. The cost for high grade slaves is balanced by their benefit and that you get +4 to your attributes as well.

I think there are some cases where there are no high grade, so having to mid grade with only +2 is part of the balance as well.
Avvy
Doomheim
#3 - 2016-02-12 17:45:22 UTC
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:
But attribute implants are also tied to pirate implants as well. The cost for high grade slaves is balanced by their benefit and that you get +4 to your attributes as well.

I think there are some cases where there are no high grade, so having to mid grade with only +2 is part of the balance as well.



So remove the attribute part and replace it with something else, not attribute related.


Attributes are pointless, even more so since sp injectors.
Lasisha Mishi
A Blessed Bean
Pandemic Horde
#4 - 2016-02-12 17:58:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Lasisha Mishi
Avvy wrote:
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:
But attribute implants are also tied to pirate implants as well. The cost for high grade slaves is balanced by their benefit and that you get +4 to your attributes as well.

I think there are some cases where there are no high grade, so having to mid grade with only +2 is part of the balance as well.



So remove the attribute part and replace it with something else, not attribute related.


Attributes are pointless, even more so since sp injectors.

not for people who can't afford to buy SP injectors for everything

i got 3 injectors to speed train a few core skills, and now i'm happily sitting with my +5 implants letting the longer term(aka SP cost) but not as vital skills train up (aka skills training from 4 to 5.)

they still have a point. If you don't like them, don't use them.

very very very VERY few will be able to afford SP injectors for every skill they care about. vast majority of people in game will continue to use implants to speed up the natural SP generation.

and people who farm SP for character bazaar or extractors will continue to collect implants to speed that up


injectors don't replace implants. they are just a MUCH more expensive, fast burst.
while implants are slower, steady, cheaper, and have the potential to give alot more SP long term (provided you live)
Avvy
Doomheim
#5 - 2016-02-12 18:17:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Avvy
Lasisha Mishi wrote:
Avvy wrote:
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:
But attribute implants are also tied to pirate implants as well. The cost for high grade slaves is balanced by their benefit and that you get +4 to your attributes as well.

I think there are some cases where there are no high grade, so having to mid grade with only +2 is part of the balance as well.



So remove the attribute part and replace it with something else, not attribute related.


Attributes are pointless, even more so since sp injectors.

not for people who can't afford to buy SP injectors for everything

i got 3 injectors to speed train a few core skills, and now i'm happily sitting with my +5 implants letting the longer term(aka SP cost) but not as vital skills train up (aka skills training from 4 to 5.)

they still have a point. If you don't like them, don't use them.

very very very VERY few will be able to afford SP injectors for every skill they care about. vast majority of people in game will continue to use implants to speed up the natural SP generation.

and people who farm SP for character bazaar or extractors will continue to collect implants to speed that up



The problem with attribute and attribute implants is that they work arse about face.

In the earlier stages of the game when you need to train a lot of skills and change attributes frequently, you can't as you get trapped into being efficient in two attributes only.

In the later stages of the game when skills are very long it doesn't matter so much as you won't need to change so frequently.



Attribute implant can also prevent people from trying things out as the cost of the implants may mean they can't afford to risk them and when you have a lot of skills to train you don't really want to drop the efficiency.

Again in the later stages of the game it doesn't matter so much.



All sp farmers need to do now is implant just 2 +5s, they don't even need to change them as all they will be doing is extracting 500k at a time.


Attributes and attribute implants just hinder game play in the early stages of the game and the later stages they don't even really matter for a lot of players.


So yeah, attributes and attributes implants are a somewhat useless system.
Lasisha Mishi
A Blessed Bean
Pandemic Horde
#6 - 2016-02-12 18:24:03 UTC
Avvy wrote:
Lasisha Mishi wrote:
Avvy wrote:
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:
But attribute implants are also tied to pirate implants as well. The cost for high grade slaves is balanced by their benefit and that you get +4 to your attributes as well.

I think there are some cases where there are no high grade, so having to mid grade with only +2 is part of the balance as well.



So remove the attribute part and replace it with something else, not attribute related.


Attributes are pointless, even more so since sp injectors.

not for people who can't afford to buy SP injectors for everything

i got 3 injectors to speed train a few core skills, and now i'm happily sitting with my +5 implants letting the longer term(aka SP cost) but not as vital skills train up (aka skills training from 4 to 5.)

they still have a point. If you don't like them, don't use them.

very very very VERY few will be able to afford SP injectors for every skill they care about. vast majority of people in game will continue to use implants to speed up the natural SP generation.

and people who farm SP for character bazaar or extractors will continue to collect implants to speed that up



The problem with attribute and attribute implants is that they work arse about face.

In the earlier stages of the game when you need to train a lot of skills and change attributes frequently, you can't as you get trapped into being efficient in two attributes only.

In the later stages of the game when skills are very long it doesn't matter so much as you won't need to change so frequently.



Attribute implant can also prevent people from trying things out as the cost of the implants may mean they can't afford to risk them and when you have a lot of skills to train you don't really want to drop the efficiency.

Again in the later stages of the game it doesn't matter so much.



All sp farmers need to do now is implant just 2 +5s, they don't even need to change them as all they will be doing if extracting 500k at a time.


Attributes and attribute implants just hinder game play in the early stages of the game and the later stages they don't even really matter for a lot of players.


So yeah, attributes and attributes implants are a somewhat useless system.



i disagree. its not a useless system at all


but hey, if you think its useless. remember. YOU DON'T NEED TO USE THEM.

they are entirely for people who SEE value in them. if you don't. you don't need to use them.

while people like me who see value in investing in them (and i have all 5 attributes +5 as i have alot of various skills to work to, as i'm not a specialized alt) will use them.
Avvy
Doomheim
#7 - 2016-02-12 18:29:47 UTC
Lasisha Mishi wrote:




while people like me who see value in investing in them (and i have all 5 attributes +5 as i have alot of various skills to work to, as i'm not a specialized alt) will use them.



From that I'd guess you're a high-sec dweller or never needs to leave a station.
Lathael
Liga der aussergewoehnlichen Tattergreise
#8 - 2016-02-12 18:30:21 UTC
Lasisha Mishi wrote:
Avvy wrote:
Lasisha Mishi wrote:
Avvy wrote:
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:
But attribute implants are also tied to pirate implants as well. The cost for high grade slaves is balanced by their benefit and that you get +4 to your attributes as well.

I think there are some cases where there are no high grade, so having to mid grade with only +2 is part of the balance as well.



So remove the attribute part and replace it with something else, not attribute related.


Attributes are pointless, even more so since sp injectors.

not for people who can't afford to buy SP injectors for everything

i got 3 injectors to speed train a few core skills, and now i'm happily sitting with my +5 implants letting the longer term(aka SP cost) but not as vital skills train up (aka skills training from 4 to 5.)

they still have a point. If you don't like them, don't use them.

very very very VERY few will be able to afford SP injectors for every skill they care about. vast majority of people in game will continue to use implants to speed up the natural SP generation.

and people who farm SP for character bazaar or extractors will continue to collect implants to speed that up



The problem with attribute and attribute implants is that they work arse about face.

In the earlier stages of the game when you need to train a lot of skills and change attributes frequently, you can't as you get trapped into being efficient in two attributes only.

In the later stages of the game when skills are very long it doesn't matter so much as you won't need to change so frequently.



Attribute implant can also prevent people from trying things out as the cost of the implants may mean they can't afford to risk them and when you have a lot of skills to train you don't really want to drop the efficiency.

Again in the later stages of the game it doesn't matter so much.



All sp farmers need to do now is implant just 2 +5s, they don't even need to change them as all they will be doing if extracting 500k at a time.


Attributes and attribute implants just hinder game play in the early stages of the game and the later stages they don't even really matter for a lot of players.


So yeah, attributes and attributes implants are a somewhat useless system.



i disagree. its not a useless system at all


but hey, if you think its useless. remember. YOU DON'T NEED TO USE THEM.

they are entirely for people who SEE value in them. if you don't. you don't need to use them.

while people like me who see value in investing in them (and i have all 5 attributes +5 as i have alot of various skills to work to, as i'm not a specialized alt) will use them.


No need to write in capital letters.
It is not about you don't have to use it.

I use them because I like them. But I like them because I like to gain skillpoints fast.
On the other hand it hinders me to play PVP because I cannot afford to loose them to often.

The question now: If they wouldn't exist. Would someone miss them?

I say: no.

Because no one gets a drawback in my opinion.

But that is just my perspective.
Lasisha Mishi
A Blessed Bean
Pandemic Horde
#9 - 2016-02-12 18:34:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Lasisha Mishi
Avvy wrote:
Lasisha Mishi wrote:




while people like me who see value in investing in them (and i have all 5 attributes +5 as i have alot of various skills to work to, as i'm not a specialized alt) will use them.



From that I'd guess you're a high-sec dweller or never needs to leave a station.

i'm actually a wormhole dweller. I do travel to high-sec alot. but spend most of my time in the wh ratting or hunting intruders.

i just play cautiously so i don't get jumped.


Lathael wrote:


No need to write in capital letters.
It is not about you don't have to use it.

I use them because I like them. But I like them because I like to gain skillpoints fast.
On the other hand it hinders me to play PVP because I cannot afford to loose them to often.

The question now: If they wouldn't exist. Would someone miss them?

I say: no.

Because no one gets a drawback in my opinion.

But that is just my perspective.

"If they wouldn't exist. Would someone miss them?"
yes. i would.

because i like them speeding up my SP even if its just by a day out of 30.



the drawback is, people gain SP slower.


not to mention, i'm guessing wherever these implants came from has invested significantly into it. removing implants would hurt them.

and without implants, whats the point of killing a pod
"hey look i killed this person's pod worth less than the ammo i used"

people take pride when they kill a high value pod.


also without implants. having clones becomes alot less useful as you don't need to switch between clones to protect your implants.
instead clones become nothing more than mini station teleports......laaaame
Lathael
Liga der aussergewoehnlichen Tattergreise
#10 - 2016-02-12 18:40:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Lathael
Lasisha Mishi wrote:
Avvy wrote:
Lasisha Mishi wrote:




while people like me who see value in investing in them (and i have all 5 attributes +5 as i have alot of various skills to work to, as i'm not a specialized alt) will use them.



From that I'd guess you're a high-sec dweller or never needs to leave a station.

i'm actually a wormhole dweller. I do travel to high-sec alot. but spend most of my time in the wh ratting or hunting intruders.

i just play cautiously so i don't get jumped.


Lathael wrote:


No need to write in capital letters.
It is not about you don't have to use it.

I use them because I like them. But I like them because I like to gain skillpoints fast.
On the other hand it hinders me to play PVP because I cannot afford to loose them to often.

The question now: If they wouldn't exist. Would someone miss them?

I say: no.

Because no one gets a drawback in my opinion.

But that is just my perspective.

"If they wouldn't exist. Would someone miss them?"
yes. i would.

because i like them speeding up my SP even if its just by a day out of 30.



the drawback is, people gain SP slower.


not to mention, i'm guessing wherever these implants came from has invested significantly into it. removing implants would hurt them.

and without implants, whats the point of killing a pod
"hey look i killed this person's pod worth less than the ammo i used"

people take pride when they kill a high value pod.


also without implants. having clones becomes alot less useful as you don't need to switch between clones to protect your implants.
instead clones become nothing more than mini station teleports......laaaame


Has no one the idea that they can just increase all attributes by 5 points and all stays the same?

Same like they removed attribute skills and increased attributes for the same amount?
Avvy
Doomheim
#11 - 2016-02-12 18:44:03 UTC
Lathael wrote:



The question now: If they wouldn't exist. Would someone miss them?





I just think some owners of higher level characters actually like the fact that it hinders new players and it will tend to slow those lower level characters down.

We also come back to the ridiculous argument about PVP as in PVPers don't need fast training times.

Although others like yourself don't want to slow training down everytime you want to PvP. I agree with you on that as I don't see why they should have to.

Some say it's a choice, well it's not much of a choice for a lot of players. Only choice is to train slower if you PvP, which isn't even really a choice as it's dictated by the system and your wallet.


Attributes and attribute implants are just an outdated pointless system, which results in different rules for different groups.
Lasisha Mishi
A Blessed Bean
Pandemic Horde
#12 - 2016-02-12 18:47:03 UTC
Lathael wrote:
Lasisha Mishi wrote:
Avvy wrote:
Lasisha Mishi wrote:




while people like me who see value in investing in them (and i have all 5 attributes +5 as i have alot of various skills to work to, as i'm not a specialized alt) will use them.



From that I'd guess you're a high-sec dweller or never needs to leave a station.

i'm actually a wormhole dweller. I do travel to high-sec alot. but spend most of my time in the wh ratting or hunting intruders.

i just play cautiously so i don't get jumped.


Lathael wrote:


No need to write in capital letters.
It is not about you don't have to use it.

I use them because I like them. But I like them because I like to gain skillpoints fast.
On the other hand it hinders me to play PVP because I cannot afford to loose them to often.

The question now: If they wouldn't exist. Would someone miss them?

I say: no.

Because no one gets a drawback in my opinion.

But that is just my perspective.

"If they wouldn't exist. Would someone miss them?"
yes. i would.

because i like them speeding up my SP even if its just by a day out of 30.



the drawback is, people gain SP slower.


not to mention, i'm guessing wherever these implants came from has invested significantly into it. removing implants would hurt them.

and without implants, whats the point of killing a pod
"hey look i killed this person's pod worth less than the ammo i used"

people take pride when they kill a high value pod.


also without implants. having clones becomes alot less useful as you don't need to switch between clones to protect your implants.
instead clones become nothing more than mini station teleports......laaaame


Has no one the idea that they can just increase all attributes by 5 points and all stays the same?

Same like they removed attribute skills and increased attributes for the same amount?

so give everyone +5

......whats the point of podding? what do they lose

wheres the fun in killing a high value'd pod.


and how would you refund everyone who has +5 implants that no longer work cause you gave everyone +5.

just leave implants as they are now. right now they are still heavy in demand and low in supply (hence their price)




if implants were as useless as you all claim. they wouldn't cost so much. If they were useless, they'd cost as much as other useless stuff like exotic dancers or mercs.
Lathael
Liga der aussergewoehnlichen Tattergreise
#13 - 2016-02-12 18:50:36 UTC
......whats the point of podding?

* Loosing other implants that give bonus to fight skills.
* Corpses
* Joy


I think CCP made some stuff wrong with Dust514 but in my opinion they did it right to remove attributes and learning stuff there completely.
Aiwha
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#14 - 2016-02-12 18:50:50 UTC
CCP has said they want to remove all that at some point, but the biggest sticking points are the LP market (learning implants are a big part of most LP stores, pirate and normal) Refunds for existing learning implants (I have several +5 sets on multiple characters, but the billions I spent went to players, not NPC's so it can't just be refunded) And finding a new system to replace the risk of pvp'ing with learning implants. (which is easier if they just make a single implant that increases learning speed but is destroyed on podding)


That's on CCP's end. On the player end, there's a discussion to be had on exactly how far we want to go eliminating complication in the game. "Back in the day" we had learning skills you had to train before training anything else in order to reach a normal level of skill training. Now everybody gets those for free.

Sanity is fun leaving the body.
Avvy
Doomheim
#15 - 2016-02-12 18:53:21 UTC
Lasisha Mishi wrote:



wheres the fun in killing a high value'd pod.


and how would you refund everyone who has +5 implants that no longer work cause you gave everyone +5.

just leave implants as they are now. right now they are still heavy in demand and low in supply (hence their price)




if implants were as useless as you all claim. they wouldn't cost so much. If they were useless, they'd cost as much as other useless stuff like exotic dancers or mercs.



All you seem to care about is that you can train faster than others.

You don't actually care about what effect it has on the game.

Kind of like those that like them because they get kill-mails with higher value kills.
Avvy
Doomheim
#16 - 2016-02-12 18:56:23 UTC
Aiwha wrote:
CCP has said they want to remove all that at some point, but the biggest sticking points are the LP market (learning implants are a big part of most LP stores, pirate and normal) Refunds for existing learning implants (I have several +5 sets on multiple characters, but the billions I spent went to players, not NPC's so it can't just be refunded) And finding a new system to replace the risk of pvp'ing with learning implants. (which is easier if they just make a single implant that increases learning speed but is destroyed on podding)


That's on CCP's end. On the player end, there's a discussion to be had on exactly how far we want to go eliminating complication in the game. "Back in the day" we had learning skills you had to train before training anything else in order to reach a normal level of skill training. Now everybody gets those for free.


So they need to find something that can replace them in LP store.
Kelby
#17 - 2016-02-12 19:00:26 UTC
Lathael wrote:
Dropped in skill rank from from 703 to 714 since the skill injectors hit the market.

Let's see how far I drop in the the next weeks.

Seems to work for CCP I assume that is good.

Now that we are one step more in the direction to simplify things can we get rid of attribute implants?


Maybe characters listed on the site with a higher than the maximum possible SP per hour (allowing a margin to take into account skill splits etc.) can be excluded from the rankings someday Big smile
Lathael
Liga der aussergewoehnlichen Tattergreise
#18 - 2016-02-12 19:09:29 UTC
Kelby wrote:
Lathael wrote:
Dropped in skill rank from from 703 to 714 since the skill injectors hit the market.

Let's see how far I drop in the the next weeks.

Seems to work for CCP I assume that is good.

Now that we are one step more in the direction to simplify things can we get rid of attribute implants?


Maybe characters listed on the site with a higher than the maximum possible SP per hour (allowing a margin to take into account skill splits etc.) can be excluded from the rankings someday Big smile


HAHA nice idea Lol