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Derived Standings Confusion
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Miss Negotiatrix
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1 - 2016-02-08 05:29:51 UTC
Ok, so I've decided to do a better workup on cosmos for well my own future characters, as well as any corp mates, and I may even write an up to date guide for everyone if I feel really ambitious and nice.

To do that, obviously I am taking screenshots as well as notes on each mission, their standings increases, etc

Currently I am doing minny cosmos, and the standings increases confused me. So I did some research into how the standings mechanics works. Once I figured out that my social skill effects the % shown in the faction transactions the primary faction got easy for me... the ns=((10-s)*i)+s equation works perfectly, if I throw it into a spreadsheet the theoretical increases are within a hundreth of the actual increases.

I wanted to write in my notes the % gained basically so I was checking the ,ath basically....

well having said that, the primary faction I understand, the derived faction however is a whole different monster.

First thing I did is went to the derived faction, in this case Gallente, I checked the faction transactions and I wrote down the % given.

Next I went to my spreadsheet and was checking to be sure that ns=((10-s)*i)+s worked for that as well. When I pluged the % into i and did the math the ns that should have happened was different then my actual results...

For instance: Jippon Frain one of the agents gave me a derived 4.0685% increase according to my transactions log in my standings.. when I pluged in my previous standing which was 4.57(unmodified) I showed I should end up with a 4.79 standings.

When I checked my ACTUAL standings after said mission I ended up with a 4.98. Now I know I ended up better than my math showed and I shouldn't complain... but I am assuming I am doing something wrong in my math.

Jippons increase for Minmatar was 9.3750% and I predicted 5.79 and in the end I actually got 5.79 so like I said, I know the primary standings mechanics at least I've figured out.


Does anyone know what is going on here?

The reason this is something I care about is I want to show on my website/guide when its done what each mission would increase % wise for varying levels of social skills. I know how to do that math as well but to do it accurately I need to figure out why the %gain isnt working for me in reference to my derived factions.


Thanks for the help.

tl;dr: wtf is wrong with my math
The Bigpuns
United Standings Improvement Agency
#2 - 2016-02-10 12:35:18 UTC
I also tried to work this out a while ago. I was trying to grind up Thinker standings, but also balance them with other factions (I noticed the Ammatar were being hit hard). The derived standings gains and losses did not seem to tally with any of the generally accepted formulae on the subject available in the wild. I raised a ticket saying that the standings were being hit by a larger margin than expected, and the response I got was less than inspiring:

"We have not released the standings formulae. Ticket closed". I raised another one trying to get an expanded, and possibly more helpful, answer, but that one was completely ignored.

It seems as though CCP have no intention of allowing us to understand the derived standings. I guess this is because they don't want us to be able to balance all the factions with good standings, instead having to pick a side in their ongoing wars. But this seems a bit lime sour grapes to me. Their formulae don't work the way they want them to, so they hide them.

And before people start flaming, I did the research, I understand the figures.
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#3 - 2016-02-10 17:11:18 UTC
I assume you are using this formula? Connections

Did you look at this? Standings Mechanics

Did you account for Diplomacy skill?
Miss Negotiatrix
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#4 - 2016-02-11 05:58:32 UTC
Connection and diplomacy have nothing to do with the primary factions actual increase... they only mess with effective increases...

I assumed derived non effective increases would be the same. And yes i read that standings page, it was from there i wasvable to predict the primary factions changes


Its just derived that has me confused
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#5 - 2016-02-11 14:39:04 UTC
Miss Negotiatrix wrote:
Connection and diplomacy have nothing to do with the primary factions actual increase... they only mess with effective increases...

I assumed derived non effective increases would be the same. And yes i read that standings page, it was from there i wasvable to predict the primary factions changes


Its just derived that has me confused


How do you figure Connections and diplomacy have nothing to do with the actual increase?

Taken from the Connections link above:
Quote:
Given that:

It is not the value of your standing which is increased by 4% per level of Connections; instead, the difference between 10 and your standing is decreased by 4% per level of Connections.

Then the equation is as follows:
•(Effective standing) = 10-(10-S)*C

Where
•S = existing standings
•C = 1-(0.04*Connections Level)

Example: S = 3.03, Connections level of 3.
•10 - (10 - 3.03) * 0.88 = 3.8664

Intuition:
•(10 - S) is the difference between your standing and 10.
•Δ = (10 - S) * C is that difference reduced by 4% per level of Connections.

Therefore 10 - Δ is your new standing.

Note that Connections is not used if your standings are below 0.00 (-0.01); Diplomacy is used for that, instead.

The Connections skill cannot modify your standings if you have not received any standings with a corporation or faction. In such a case your effective standings are zero regardless of your level of the Connections skill.

Miss Negotiatrix
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#6 - 2016-02-11 19:08:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Miss Negotiatrix
Social: Each trained level gives a 5% bonus to the base mission standing increase.

This is the skill that effects the number at the end of standings inside the ( )


Diplomacy: Skill at interacting with hostile Agents. 4% Modifier per level to effective standing towards hostile Agents. Not cumulative with Connections or Criminal Connections.

This messes with the Effective Standings The first number you see after a faction


Connections: Skill at interacting with friendly NPCs. 4% Modifier to effective standing from friendly NPC Corporations and Factions per level. Not cumulative with Diplomacy or Criminal Connections.

Also the effective Standings


I cant find where I originally found the info however when it comes to increasing standings via missions and such the ONLY skill that matters is Social

The others help increase how the various factions see you, but doesn't actually increase your standings for instance diplomacy can take a guy who dislikes you say a -1 and can make him tolerate you +2 but get rid of that skill (diplomacy) and he will immediately start to hate you again. Now if you grind a standing so in the () is 5 which social helped you to get there, if you get rid of social skill you will still be at 5 cause social actually messes with the equation to increase your standing, whereas the others just increase how others perceive you.


Understand?



and when I'm raising my standings I'm watching the number inside the ()
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#7 - 2016-02-11 21:24:10 UTC
If you understand it so well, then why is your math wrong?
Miss Negotiatrix
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#8 - 2016-02-11 21:35:31 UTC
well then you do it and tell me if your math is right... Ive studied it a lot before posting to try to figure it out myself

but the fact that I can figure out the primary standings boost without using anything but my social skill, and be accurate in my predictions should at least say I understand some of it.

now why would the derived faction standing be different then the primary? I will try doing it with diplomacy later but I'll be shocked if it works.
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#9 - 2016-02-11 21:51:47 UTC
I don't feel like explaining it. So here, see this forum: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=330283
Miss Negotiatrix
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#10 - 2016-02-11 22:13:06 UTC
thanks I'll see if I can figure it out from that.