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Nice kill. Double web Rifter or did he just plow in?

You were, however, screwed by the Loot Fairy.

@Alex
Sure.
Within themselves, here's whats wrong (imo):

Enyo: 2 mids, no range control and the closest range weapons. Outperformed in every way by its counterpart, the Ishkur

Ishkur: 1 of the only good AFs.

Vengeance: damage output is far too low and tank is too weak (when not injected). The *good* AFs outperform it

Retribution: 1 mid slot makes this ship worthless.

Jag: Currently one of the good AFs. Nothing terribly wrong with it beyond AFs being crap overall.

Wolf: Currently decent, but suffers greatly against smaller/faster ships. I routinely kill these with rocket Maledictions.

Hawk: low damage output, and 4 mids which further limits its damage output and tanking ability

Harpy: very similar to the Enyo, only it's insanely difficult to fit well and doubly as fat making it more useless.

All AFs suffer from lack of survivability. They are only useful against (relatively) noob/oblivious targets in empire space.
AB fits are popular in low-sec because you don't have gate hazards or grid spanning fights (generally). They also make it really easy to tank plexes and such. The benefits of low-sec are spread equally for each class (ie: plex camping) but are more relevant for AFs because you can do such things without a really need for mobility.

As for the boosting spiral, the other ships have needed fixing for a long time, and need them if AFs get changed or not.
Pirate frigates are the most awkward. The DD & Dram are great, but the Succubus was nerfed some time ago, the Cruor doesn't have the cap, tank, or gank needed to use that neut bonus, and the Worms only advantage is it's total lack of cap and decent tank.

Destroyers won't need a boost. Interdictors perform better and act as the step up for T1.
I'm sorry if you think a skilled pilot in a sub 1-mil hull should be able to absolutely obliterate AFs without batting an eye.

T1 Cruisers have needed a look for a while. The lower tier ships are generally crap for all the races, and the entire amarr lineup is pretty bad overall.

HOW those ships get changed would be up for debate I'm sure, and it's unlikely that theyd see a similar turnaround that AFs are getting. For example, the Amarr cruisers would be made a whole lot better if they just had some fitting

My favorite AF is the Wolf. Right now on TQ I fly one that uses 200mm, a small nuet, a TE, and the equivalent of two gyros. (rigs) With implants and faction ammo my DPS overheated comes in around 309 and 12km of falloff. Gank fit - only 5.8k EHP. Currently also on TQ - I can create a Gank Enyo with 357 DPS. That sounds exciting - but 20 of it is a hobgoblin Drone. Turret to turret the Enyo has a 26 DPS advantage over the Wolf. And that 'massive DPS' is limited to under 5km for optimal + falloff. That DPS is completely impractical though. Most of the poor Enyo's fights are in the 5km - 9km range due to no web. If I switch to Null? The Wolf outdamages at ever part of the Enyo's limited engagement range. 309 and 12km of falloff to 269 and 4.22km + 3.91km falloff.

And yet there are those who insist that AF are "fine" and need no changes. I'll repeat what I said a while ago - as it stands right now the Enyo is a steaming pile of crap. If it doesn't have a second damage bonus there's no reason to fly it over the Wolf. And I agree with most of the analysis Prom gave of individual AF above. My wolf over the past has been able to do the DPS beatdown on most of the others. Overwhelming DPS + a small nuet = win. The AF field belongs to a few ships that don't suck as hard as the other ones.

These changes allow the current losers in the field to rise to a higher level. The Hawk, Enyo, Vengeance, and Harpy can all do more damage. The Wolf no longer comes across as total 'Winmatar.'

The only bit I don't agree with Prom on is destroyers. I think the Corm and Catalyst need more fitting to be competitive with the Thrasher.

There's a stickied thread for comments on the AF changes.

I'm not saying it's good, but he couldn't hit me with 2 TEs. That's the point I was trying to make

You caught a kiting ship with a scram interceptor. You should win that fight.

If I'm in a small frig gang and someone asked whether they should bring Enyo or Wolf, I'd immediately say Enyo. It has its role.

In fact, while I'm on that train of thought. if I had a small frig gang set up and someone asked could they come along as well, and what ship class to bring, I would say Assault Frigate. They excel here.

Sure, not every single AF can have the title of BEST Assault Frigate. They can't all be AS versatile, as the MOST versatile ones for solo'ing. But the bulk of them have their place, and their use. A few tune ups is whats needed. A megabuff for every single AF including the already dominant solo ones, is really stupid.




LOL and you have the nerve to label other peoples sensible reasoning in this thread as "hearsay", and then post this ridiculous crap. AF's are not underpowered. They are very dominant in lowsec combate. And that isn't "hearsay", or an "opinion with no evidence backing it up", its a fact. It's basically agreed upon by every single poster in this thread bar you, even the majority of people who agree with your changes also agree that AF's are already the go-to ship, they just want there toys to be even more high tech, without thinking about the actual repercussions of doing so.

If you want to get more use out of AF's rather then just complaining that they don't do well enough in null sec, then come to Low and start flying one. If you can't do well in low sec with an AF, while others like Miura Bull and Wensley's killboards are thriving off solo'ing in rifters, then I don't know what else to tell you - you must be a terrible PVP'er and until you learn more about broader aspects of this game, your opinions should hold little weight. These decisions should be made by PVP'ers who will take into account both null sec AND low sec, not just willingly nerf one to give themselves a new toy in the area of the game that THEY personally play the most. Just because you chose to use ships where they don't excel and refuse to use them where they dominate, doesn't make that ship underpowered. You don't go missioning in a Falcon, you don't go PVP'ing in null with a full set of Slave implants, and you don't try to get your moneys worth pirating lowsec systems in Flycatcher or a Broadsword. This doesn't mean any of the aforementioned need buffs - it means you are using them wrong, and are restricting yourself of their true strengths by not using them where they belong.

lol darkstar, prometheus has been solo roaming lowsec for years, he is one of the most well known pvpers in eve.
He has many valid points about AFs, but all opinions are personal and biased based upon your own experiences and combat preferences.
the only way we can justify our opinions is to post killmail evidence, something which prometheus has no trouble doing.
He has one of the most experienced opinions in this thread, so rather than slate him, I would listen and discuss with some decorum. =P

I'm sorry, but that deserved its own post.

@Axel
So you've spent (about) a hundred mil (hull included, market prices) to make a Hawk/Veng usable in low sec, which still gets swatted out of the sky by a Slicer, plated Rifter/Punisher, any Destroyer. Great work there

Darkstar
If someone wanted to bring an AF on a frigate roam outside of Empire's padded cell, I would laugh in their face and not reimburse their loss. Your right, not every AF can be called the best, but more than half are god awful within their own circle, and even worse in actual hazardous conditions.

PVP is more than sitting on a beacon waiting for someone to show up in your tackle range, or trying to sneak a gank on the station undock. Sure, those are valid playstyles, but that is all AFs are good at. The changes are looking to expand on that, not replace it.

I'm allowed to call it hearsay because the claims that AFs **** Destroyers and Cruisers is patently false. That's the only claim with value, because trying to say that a T2 combat frigate should be catered to the balance of T1 frigates is a downright hilarious notion. If there were an actual balance issue, then yes, tweaks would be discussed. But frankly, it still takes a few frigates to effectively take down a well flown Cruiser. No different than a T1 frig gang, and no different than a couple Taranis doing it.

And as for me living in low sec, I left 2 years ago when FW became battle of the rich-boys, and the days consisted of avoiding one poorly orchestrated FW/pirate blob after the other.

So what would you take instead on a frigate roam? a fleet of daredevils and drams ? how practical. how bout faction frigs? ceptors? T1's? i dont understand this af hate at all, wheres your reasoning before i label this as hearsay



THATS HEARSAY MY FRIEND, AFS ARE GOOD AT MUCH MORE THAN THAT. OR DO I NEED TO POST KILLMAILS FIRST AS IRREFUTABLE EVIDENCE OF THIS?....



not once has anyone said that a t2 combat frigate should be balanced with a t1. YES HAR HAR HAR WHAT A HILARIOUS NOTION YOU'VE CONCOCTED THERE. But to say that its irrelevant to compare the strength of an AF with a T1 is stupid. They are the same size group and there needs to be a well conceived level of strength between them, not just saying "WELL 1 RIFTER CANNOT SOLO A JAGUAR EITHER WAY SO IT DOESNT MATTER WHAT THE HELL WE DO IF WE CHOOSE TO BUFF THE **** OUT OF IT RITE??" . That's no reason to throw sense out the door and not put wise thought towards avoiding overbuffing a ship that already beats out most of its own size already