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CCP - Why did you edit the summit minutes?

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CCP Xhagen
C C P
C C P Alliance
#21 - 2011-09-15 14:35:08 UTC
Why did we edit the minutes?

Many of you have some experience with writing up meeting minutes in the form we have been publishing CSM meeting minutes in the past. This conversational form, with a flow and grouping of subjects is a bit tricky to achieve.

Also, building a context for statements is also important so that neither questions nor answers are miscommunicated.

We've always edited the CSM meeting minutes. Both the CSM and CCP have had input into the editing process from the beginning. Usually those edits have been minor and done in perfect agreement between both parties.

Now, enter the special meeting minutes. This is the first where the CSM and CCP have had a conversation about the business strategies of CCP. Understandably we want the business stuff to sound right, after all CCP is a business entity.

When these two conditions meet, first time for business strategy with the CSM and CCP being a business, I'd say that difficulties arising in communication of those meetings are to be expected. And while I grossly underestimated the degree of difference of opinions between CCP and the CSM regarding the writeup of these minutes, we still managed to have both parties agree to a version.

In my opinion this is neither good nor bad - this type of discussion is a healthy one and while it takes time to resolve I still firmly maintain the rule that minutes shall not be released until both parties give their consent - but they will be released so a stalling tactic will not be made an acceptable method, by either party. My stance might be the result of my educational background (an MA in Philosophy from the University of Iceland), I however regard this as a good way to handle matters like these.

TL;DR - the CSM and CCP always edited the CSM meeting minutes after the initial writeup, the special circumstances of the special meeting required more work than with previous minutes.

CCP Xhagen | Associate Producer | @strangelocation
Prince Kobol
#22 - 2011-09-15 14:47:54 UTC
I refuse to blame CCP 100% for the delay like many other people are doing.

There are two sides to every story and since none of use where you have to chose yourself who you believe, either CCP or the CSM.

Personally I see both groups not wanting to look bad since both have a lot to lose.

CCP have already had lots of bad press and many people now have a very low opinion of them and on the other had you have the CSM who have also taken quite a bashing and again, are suffering from low opinions.

I imagine the CSM saw this as an opportunity to look like hero's at the expenses of CCP, knowning that at the time there was already considerable anger directed towards CCP and then you had CCP in all out damage control.

For me the end result was both sets looking poor and neither winning.
Smoking Blunts
ZC Omega
#23 - 2011-09-15 15:11:53 UTC
i was under the impression that you stated your business plan 2 years or so ago. remember 18 months?
leave eve with only 2 people working on it while you moved everything to dust and wod. while using eve to test wod crap on. well we can see the results of that business plan everytime we look at the online figures.

rest of the minuets have nothing new and look like all the good bits have been condences into sound bite chunks which evenews24 highlighted so well.

OMG when can i get a pic here
Byshop Kayl
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2011-09-15 16:46:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Byshop Kayl
I understand the amount of time and effort it took to edit the minutes for public consumption.
(I'm sure there were some heated words.)

It's been months. When will we see -any- results from this emergency meeting.
As a loyal fan, player, even consumer, for many years, I feel completely out of touch with CCP's direction.

We see a LOT of conversation apparently taking place without any idea of the content of those conversations.
(Hiding behind the shield of the NDA.)

But, more importantly, we have yet to see ANY actions.

A few of the low-hanging fruit and a couple of nice little patches between now and winter would have gone a long way to re-injecting some faith in CCP.

 "Sanity is the playground of the unimaginitive." -- Anonymous "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results." -- A. Einstein
Two step
Aperture Harmonics
#25 - 2011-09-15 16:53:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Two step
We had to agree to the edits, or Xhagen would do this to us... Big smile (kidding, we all love Petur!)

CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
Amar Azaph
Doomheim
#26 - 2011-09-15 17:14:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Amar Azaph
Byshop Kayl wrote:
I understand the amount of time and effort it took to edit the minutes for public consumption.
(I'm sure there were some heated words.)

It's been months. When will we see -any- results from this emergency meeting.
As a loyal fan, player, even consumer, for many years, I feel completely out of touch with CCP's direction.

We see a LOT of conversation apparently taking place without any idea of the content of those conversations.
(Hiding behind the shield of the NDA.)

But, more importantly, we have yet to see ANY actions.

A few of the low-hanging fruit and a couple of nice little patches between now and winter would have gone a long way to re-injecting some faith in CCP.


An NDA is worthless, I am surprised that they even had to sign one. The CSM need business people on the chair, not avid gamers, or lawyers.

For my part I know nothing with any certainty, but the sight of the stars makes me dream.
gargars
Willco Inc.
#27 - 2011-09-15 17:24:10 UTC
I notice CCP Xhagen, all of a sudden you and other Devs have stopped calling the July CCP/CSM meeting in Iceland the 'emergency' meeting/summit, and now are all calling it only the 'special' meeting or summit.

A bit too obvious a manipulation, especially given this thread is about censoring and manipulation of facts lol.

CCP Xhagen
C C P
C C P Alliance
#28 - 2011-09-16 09:40:27 UTC
gargars wrote:
I notice CCP Xhagen, all of a sudden you and other Devs have stopped calling the July CCP/CSM meeting in Iceland the 'emergency' meeting/summit, and now are all calling it only the 'special' meeting or summit.

A bit too obvious a manipulation, especially given this thread is about censoring and manipulation of facts lol.


I'm not trying to sound offensive or rude, but you just demonstrated what was going on with the minutes and the editing surrounding that.
Special, emergency, extraordinary, unscheduled... we had a meeting on a very short notice, what does it matter what it is called?

CCP Xhagen | Associate Producer | @strangelocation
CCP Xhagen
C C P
C C P Alliance
#29 - 2011-09-16 09:48:20 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Xhagen
Byshop Kayl wrote:
I understand the amount of time and effort it took to edit the minutes for public consumption.
(I'm sure there were some heated words.)

It's been months. When will we see -any- results from this emergency meeting.
As a loyal fan, player, even consumer, for many years, I feel completely out of touch with CCP's direction.

We see a LOT of conversation apparently taking place without any idea of the content of those conversations.
(Hiding behind the shield of the NDA.)

But, more importantly, we have yet to see ANY actions.

A few of the low-hanging fruit and a couple of nice little patches between now and winter would have gone a long way to re-injecting some faith in CCP.

You will absolutely see results from the meeting, actions and results. As per this thread :edit: and this post :edit: - CCP is just not ready to communicate about it publicly just yet. The CSM is however being kept in the loop as much as possible.

CCP Xhagen | Associate Producer | @strangelocation
Alpheias
Tactical Farmers.
Pandemic Horde
#30 - 2011-09-16 09:51:37 UTC
CCP Xhagen wrote:


Special, emergency, extraordinary, unscheduled... we had a meeting on a very short notice, what does it matter what it is called?


Because CCP, as their habit goes, makes blunders that can be likened to someone thinking that diarrhea and snow cannon is a cool idea.

Agent of Chaos, Sower of Discord.

Don't talk to me unless you are IQ verified and certified with three references from non-family members. Please have your certificate of authenticity on hand.
Khagah Mishi
#31 - 2011-09-16 09:58:44 UTC
CCP Xhagen wrote:
gargars wrote:
I notice CCP Xhagen, all of a sudden you and other Devs have stopped calling the July CCP/CSM meeting in Iceland the 'emergency' meeting/summit, and now are all calling it only the 'special' meeting or summit.

A bit too obvious a manipulation, especially given this thread is about censoring and manipulation of facts lol.


I'm not trying to sound offensive or rude, but you just demonstrated what was going on with the minutes and the editing surrounding that.
Special, emergency, extraordinary, unscheduled... we had a meeting on a very short notice, what does it matter what it is called?

It matters. That said, it seems CCP at first used "extraordinary meeting", not "emergency meeting", and it was soon also called "special summit".
Fawcks
Doomheim
#32 - 2011-09-16 23:25:05 UTC
EVE Stig wrote:
Fawcks wrote:
WhyTry1 wrote:
blah blah blah blah blah the CSM in CCPs eyes are pretty worthless blah blah

The CSM is worthless to everyone's eyes. :/


except theirs

Trudat.
Fawcks
Doomheim
#33 - 2011-09-16 23:27:48 UTC
Alpheias wrote:
CCP Xhagen wrote:


Special, emergency, extraordinary, unscheduled... we had a meeting on a very short notice, what does it matter what it is called?


Because CCP, as their habit goes, makes blunders that can be likened to someone thinking that diarrhea and snow cannon is a cool idea.

Alright internet, I know you have the will, the means and the free time to do this for me, so let's make this happen. I want to see the snowpoop cannon on youtube.
WhyTry1
Comply Or Die
Pandemic Horde
#34 - 2011-09-16 23:42:01 UTC
CCP Xhagen wrote:
Why did we edit the minutes?

Many of you have some experience with writing up meeting minutes in the form we have been publishing CSM meeting minutes in the past. This conversational form, with a flow and grouping of subjects is a bit tricky to achieve.

Also, building a context for statements is also important so that neither questions nor answers are miscommunicated.

We've always edited the CSM meeting minutes. Both the CSM and CCP have had input into the editing process from the beginning. Usually those edits have been minor and done in perfect agreement between both parties.

Now, enter the special meeting minutes. This is the first where the CSM and CCP have had a conversation about the business strategies of CCP. Understandably we want the business stuff to sound right, after all CCP is a business entity.

When these two conditions meet, first time for business strategy with the CSM and CCP being a business, I'd say that difficulties arising in communication of those meetings are to be expected. And while I grossly underestimated the degree of difference of opinions between CCP and the CSM regarding the writeup of these minutes, we still managed to have both parties agree to a version.

In my opinion this is neither good nor bad - this type of discussion is a healthy one and while it takes time to resolve I still firmly maintain the rule that minutes shall not be released until both parties give their consent - but they will be released so a stalling tactic will not be made an acceptable method, by either party. My stance might be the result of my educational background (an MA in Philosophy from the University of Iceland), I however regard this as a good way to handle matters like these.

TL;DR - the CSM and CCP always edited the CSM meeting minutes after the initial writeup, the special circumstances of the special meeting required more work than with previous minutes.



Thats fine, but the minutes where substaintially edited according to the CSM, to the point of 'hiding' stuff, and the CSM almost going to war publically with CCP. Does this not concern you?
Lykouleon
Noble Sentiments
Second Empire.
#35 - 2011-09-17 00:13:35 UTC
Amar Azaph wrote:
An NDA is worthless, I am surprised that they even had to sign one.


I hope you're joking or you're very ignorant of the seriousness/gravity of an NDA.

Lykouleon > CYNO ME CLOSER so I can hit them with my sword
The Apostle
Doomheim
#36 - 2011-09-17 01:18:02 UTC
We once owned a little barking dog. It was a tenacious thing and never stopped, even after being told and told and told.

After a while, the little dog was completely ignored because it was deemed incapable of understanding such a simple thing.

So it barked more and all the other dogs in the neighbourhood started to bark in unison as well. Nobody really knew what the dogs were barking about. It was getting quite annoying but we had no idea what to do to stop the noise.

We kept feeding our little dog it of course but it just became too hard, it continued to bark and bark, annoying everyone for miles around.

We even suggested to the little dog to go somewhere else to bark. He woofed at his barking dog friends and they all ruffed that they would go elsewhere too. We waited and we hoped.

But they stayed, and barked and barked and barked.

So we gave them a new kennel, we gave them nice toys. We fed them some more. The barking stopped for a time.

Then the little dog barked again. All the other dogs barked too. We were flumoxed. What could the dogs be barking about now? It sounded exactly the same as the barking they did before! Why was this? We had explained to the little dog why we didn't like his barking. We had given him more toys, even a new home, but still he barked.

We consulted a psycholgist and he made us feel better because he explained exactly what was happening.

He told us that many dogs bark because they like the sound of their own voice. You could tell them they were wrong, over and over but it would make no difference because they cannot hear you over their barking.

So we bought some earplugs. The barking sounds very different now. Not because I can't hear it, it's because our little dog can see that we don't want to listen to him anymore. I won't even talk to him anymore because he is so noisy, he can't hear us anyway.

Perhaps if he stops barking, I might take out my earplugs and we can have a little powwow and make each other happy.

I'd like that.

This story bought to you by PETA.
Play Eve, The Apostle.

[i]Take an aspirin. If pain persists consult your local priest. WTB: An Austrian kangaroo![/i]
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#37 - 2011-09-17 01:22:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
WhyTry1 wrote:
Thats fine, but the minutes where substaintially edited according to the CSM, to the point of 'hiding' stuff, and the CSM almost going to war publically with CCP. Does this not concern you?


Trebor and Mittens are jerks anyway, and are/were blatantly politicking over these minutes. Under the rules of CCP's relationship with the CSM, the minutes can't be released until both sides agree to them. I reckon that Trebor's blog post, and the call to arms were designed to pressurize CCP into accepting a draft of the minutes that they ordinarily wouldn't have, biased towards the CSM's confrontational and antagonistic attitude. CCP have no control over what Trebor writes in his blog, after all.

The minutes of a meeting are not, and have never been, the unedited transcript of the conversation. Minutes are instead a summary with the intention of placing on record three things:

1: Which topic was discussed
2: What issues were raised and how said issues were responded to.
3: What decisions were made, if any.

Editing the minutes to boil them down to just those facts, as cleanly as possible, does carry some risk that the final product will be biased, or will conduct a minor lie by omission. Hence the rule that both CSM and CCP have to approve before we get a release version. if the CSM wanted to appear in a more positive light (and after all, what politician wouldn't?), then it would be necessary to ensure that the final draft is biased that way - one option to secure such a result would be to try and force CCP into hastily agreeing to a draft that isn't entirely even-handed... say, by kicking the beehive a bit with inflammatory language about "hiding" stuff? Politicians don't enjoy appearing to have gone on the warpath unnecessarily, so it becomes necessary to justify the antagonism.

I'm being generous when I call it "antagonism". "Witch Hunts" would be more accurate.

As you can probably gather, of course, I wouldn't trust this particular CSM as far as I could spit them, so take my observation with a healthy dose of salt.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders
Jita Alt666
#38 - 2011-09-17 01:22:52 UTC
CCP Xhagen wrote:
gargars wrote:
I notice CCP Xhagen, all of a sudden you and other Devs have stopped calling the July CCP/CSM meeting in Iceland the 'emergency' meeting/summit, and now are all calling it only the 'special' meeting or summit.

A bit too obvious a manipulation, especially given this thread is about censoring and manipulation of facts lol.


I'm not trying to sound offensive or rude, but you just demonstrated what was going on with the minutes and the editing surrounding that.
Special, emergency, extraordinary, unscheduled... we had a meeting on a very short notice, what does it matter what it is called?


How about you just call a spade a spade.
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#39 - 2011-09-17 01:33:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
Jita Alt666 wrote:
How about you just call a spade a spade.



Because it's not a spade.

I know for a fact that a remarkably large number of people will quite often call a shovel a spade, or vice versa, because they're ignorant of the difference between the two. A spade is the sharp, flat tool for cutting and levering earth and turf, while a shovel is the wider scoop-shaped tool for shifting quantities of loose material. If you try and use one to do the other's job, you'll make life difficult for yourself. So if you decided to "call a spade a spade" you'd better be damn sure that what you're talking about is, in fact, a spade.

"Emergency", "short notice", "special" and "unscheduled" are all equally valid terms to describe the meeting, and "emergency" especially is loaded with potential bias. You can't use simple terminology to describe something complex. The word "spade" refers to a specific object. There is no one word to adequately describe the situation that the community and CCP got into, so it's necessary to pick the least inflammatory term from a range of candidates.

And while we're at it, how about you post with your main?

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders
Skunk Gracklaw
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#40 - 2011-09-17 09:27:48 UTC
Stitcher wrote:


Trebor and Mittens are jerks anyway, and are/were blatantly politicking over these minutes. Under the rules of CCP's relationship with the CSM, the minutes can't be released until both sides agree to them. I reckon that Trebor's blog post, and the call to arms were designed to pressurize CCP into accepting a draft of the minutes that they ordinarily wouldn't have, biased towards the CSM's confrontational and antagonistic attitude. CCP have no control over what Trebor writes in his blog, after all.

The minutes of a meeting are not, and have never been, the unedited transcript of the conversation. Minutes are instead a summary with the intention of placing on record three things:

1: Which topic was discussed
2: What issues were raised and how said issues were responded to.
3: What decisions were made, if any.

Editing the minutes to boil them down to just those facts, as cleanly as possible, does carry some risk that the final product will be biased, or will conduct a minor lie by omission. Hence the rule that both CSM and CCP have to approve before we get a release version. if the CSM wanted to appear in a more positive light (and after all, what politician wouldn't?), then it would be necessary to ensure that the final draft is biased that way - one option to secure such a result would be to try and force CCP into hastily agreeing to a draft that isn't entirely even-handed... say, by kicking the beehive a bit with inflammatory language about "hiding" stuff? Politicians don't enjoy appearing to have gone on the warpath unnecessarily, so it becomes necessary to justify the antagonism.

I'm being generous when I call it "antagonism". "Witch Hunts" would be more accurate.

As you can probably gather, of course, I wouldn't trust this particular CSM as far as I could spit them, so take my observation with a healthy dose of salt.

Holy crap this is a horrible post.
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