These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE New Citizens Q&A

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
Previous page123
 

Autopilot vs. Manual

Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Pandora Carrollon
Provi Rapid Response
#41 - 2016-02-10 22:41:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Pandora Carrollon
ergherhdfgh, to your points, I actually agree with pretty much everything you say. I think we were having a communication difference of approach.

I practice paranoia even in HiSec. My friend who got me into this game, doesn't. At first it was because all the PvP stuff said to always practice it just to stay sharp. After reading more, watching more and playing more, I realize it's more than that.

I personally would lump someone 'padding their kill lists' in HiSec with nutcases doing it for the fun of it. It's pretty random and there is little you can do about it. No resource gathering ship, or NPC fighting fitted ship, is going to survive against a PvP equipped ship that's properly operated. Sure, you have a chance at making it hurt, but you're only trying to cost them ISK after a certain point, you're probably dead anyway, just live with it, accept it, and have fun with it, and try to get your pod out of there. The security status of the system isn't going to change that. Maybe if they don't have a War Dec out on you, Concord might arrive in time to kill them before you die but doubt it if they are intentionally suicide ganking you.

So, systems are what they are, and it's best to educate newbies like me and the OP to this stuff. However, to a really new player, everything I just typed is probably gobbldy-goook.

8 Golden Rules of EVE • EVE is entirely PvP
Iria Ahrens
Space Perverts and Forum Pirates
#42 - 2016-02-10 22:50:08 UTC
Pandora Carrollon wrote:


This is still a mind blower to me and it's really hard to dump traditional PvE concepts when I see the term... sheesh! Cry


Think of it this way. In other MMOs PvE means experience mainly, and loot which translates to income or character upgrades. In short, most games PvE = content.

In EvE PvE means isk generation. With an implication of "easy" since PvE is not the only way to generate isk.

My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#43 - 2016-02-10 23:05:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Pandora Carrollon wrote:
No resource gathering ship, or NPC fighting fitted ship, is going to survive against a PvP equipped ship that's properly operated.
The trick to that is making everybody else look like a tastier kill, being uneconomical to gank is a great deterrent unless you've pissed off the wrong people.

Ship wise you'd be surprised at what resource gathering ships, haulers and ships set up for NPC combat are capable of.

A Retriever with a Damage Control, an Invulunerbility Field and Traverse Bulkheads will cost any would be gankers close to the value of your ship to kill, while still having room for 2x MLU's for a halfway decent yield; tougher still are the Procurer and the Skiff, fitted right they tank like battlecruisers/battleships and they have a sting in the tail due to the drone bonus's.

Some of the T1 haulers can pack one hell of a tank; the Badger and Nereus can be used for all kinds of shenanigans that involve stuff exploding.

NPC combat ships can be difficult, I tend to run an omni-tank (high resists across the board and buffer/local reps) most of the time, unless the incoming DPS is heavy and requires a damage specific tank, because my skills allow me to do so easily and it saves me wasting time refitting when I'm blitzing for LP; people who live in wormholes tend to do the same because they never know who's going to appear and send them an antimatter telegram.

I'll leave this here for you, it explains much.
Lfod Shi wrote:
The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#44 - 2016-02-10 23:06:53 UTC
Pandora Carrollon wrote:
ergherhdfgh, to your points, I actually agree with pretty much everything you say. I think we were having a communication difference of approach.

I practice paranoia even in HiSec. My friend who got me into this game, doesn't. At first it was because all the PvP stuff said to always practice it just to stay sharp. After reading more, watching more and playing more, I realize it's more than that.

I personally would lump someone 'padding their kill lists' in HiSec with nutcases doing it for the fun of it. It's pretty random and there is little you can do about it. No resource gathering ship, or NPC fighting fitted ship, is going to survive against a PvP equipped ship that's properly operated. Sure, you have a chance at making it hurt, but you're only trying to cost them ISK after a certain point, you're probably dead anyway, just live with it, accept it, and have fun with it, and try to get your pod out of there. The security status of the system isn't going to change that. Maybe if they don't have a War Dec out on you, Concord might arrive in time to kill them before you die but doubt it if they are intentionally suicide ganking you.

So, systems are what they are, and it's best to educate newbies like me and the OP to this stuff. However, to a really new player, everything I just typed is probably gobbldy-goook.

to simplify this :
we are the content here,
what is considered content in other games is really only a utility for the actual game in eve, us.

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#45 - 2016-02-10 23:44:29 UTC
Pandora Carrollon wrote:


I personally would lump someone 'padding their kill lists' in HiSec with nutcases doing it for the fun of it. It's pretty random and there is little you can do about it. No resource gathering ship, or NPC fighting fitted ship, is going to survive against a PvP equipped ship that's properly operated. Sure, you have a chance at making it hurt, but you're only trying to cost them ISK after a certain point, you're probably dead anyway, just live with it, accept it, and have fun with it, and try to get your pod out of there. The security status of the system isn't going to change that. Maybe if they don't have a War Dec out on you, Concord might arrive in time to kill them before you die but doubt it if they are intentionally suicide ganking you.


There is something that you can do about it and system sec rating does make a difference. In null sec you have much larger asteroids worth more isk per m3. You also can have Rorqual boosts in null sec which are not available in high sec.

Further you can mine in a system full of blues and see reds coming via an intel channel from several systems away and be docked up and switched out to a PvP ship by the time the reds show up in system.

In high sec you might be correct there is little that you can do about gankers. In null sec you can kill all non-friendlies before they even get within 3 jumps of your miners. In null sec you don't need to worry about concord when protecting your buddies.

Want to talk? Join Cara's channel in game: House Forelli
Pandora Carrollon
Provi Rapid Response
#46 - 2016-02-10 23:49:17 UTC
Iria Ahrens wrote:
Pandora Carrollon wrote:


This is still a mind blower to me and it's really hard to dump traditional PvE concepts when I see the term... sheesh! Cry


Think of it this way. In other MMOs PvE means experience mainly, and loot which translates to income or character upgrades. In short, most games PvE = content.

In EvE PvE means isk generation. With an implication of "easy" since PvE is not the only way to generate isk.


Yup, I get that but the implications from other MMO's make the term confusing to those that don't know this "in context" trick. To be honest, I'd be willing to bet a fair chunk of experienced players are still under this misconception given some of the posts I've seen here on the boards.

8 Golden Rules of EVE • EVE is entirely PvP
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#47 - 2016-02-11 00:00:38 UTC
Pandora Carrollon wrote:
Iria Ahrens wrote:
Pandora Carrollon wrote:


This is still a mind blower to me and it's really hard to dump traditional PvE concepts when I see the term... sheesh! Cry


Think of it this way. In other MMOs PvE means experience mainly, and loot which translates to income or character upgrades. In short, most games PvE = content.

In EvE PvE means isk generation. With an implication of "easy" since PvE is not the only way to generate isk.


Yup, I get that but the implications from other MMO's make the term confusing to those that don't know this "in context" trick. To be honest, I'd be willing to bet a fair chunk of experienced players are still under this misconception given some of the posts I've seen here on the boards.

that is 100% the case,
you wouldn't believe some of the reactions you get from players when you point this misconception out .
admittedly i usualy do so by shooting them in the face so there is that Blink
when you see an ugly reaction on the forums its generally one of two things at play

hostility twords the community because a preconceived notion of the op was abruptly shattered

hostility from the community because the op has seen that eve is different , declared it to be "wrong" and demand change

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#48 - 2016-02-11 00:18:18 UTC
Pandora Carrollon wrote:
THERE IS NO PVE.

I do not agree with this comment however I know that most people in this forum will agree with it.

I could go on a longer explanation about competition and the definition of the word "versus" but I'll just clarify it by saying that this game is PvP focused and most activities in this game involved PvP and all activities have the potential to involved PvP.

Want to talk? Join Cara's channel in game: House Forelli
Cara Forelli
State War Academy
Caldari State
#49 - 2016-02-11 01:36:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Cara Forelli
Pandora Carrollon wrote:
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
My entire game time for almost the last two years has been under multiple wars.
I'll agree that war needs some attention but the cost shouldn't be the balancing factor,
They tried and it directly resulted the smaller aggressive entities forming larger block groups to spread the cost about , now for the most part aggressive hs entities tend to be big 80+ member count groups.


Aren't we quite clever people, always figuring ways around things... Big smile

You'll find this widely debated. It's funny you should mention that they don't cost enough. I actually find them prohibitively expensive, considering when I dec someone their usual strategy will be to dock up, play on their alts, or drop corp. Which means if I actually want to shoot anything ever, I have to dec a whole bunch of groups and hope a couple of them are dumb/brave enough to let me shoot them. Which is expensive. Hence the large groups mentioned by Ralph - for small groups or solo players there's just no point. Why would I pay to shoot people that aren't even going to fight back when I could go to low/null/WH and get a more interesting fight with actual combat pilots for free?

That's not to say there's no "real" combat in highsec. It's just more accessible for the large mercenary alliances. They tend to get pitted against each other pretty often for various reasons. The rest of us are largely apathetic toward highsec. It's not very interesting so we just don't spend time there (pvp) and there are more lucrative places to carebear (pve).

Also it's nice to see an eager new player that doesn't mind having their opinions challenged. A lot of the stuff you're talking about has been rehashed many times so when it comes up again the veterans tend to be blunt and it doesn't always go over well. But you will likely look back on this thread and think "Oh yeah...I remember when I thought that way...how bizarre". Very much like the rest of us do (whether or not we admit it Roll).

Want to talk? Join my channel in game: House Forelli

Titan's Lament
Pandora Carrollon
Provi Rapid Response
#50 - 2016-02-11 15:40:40 UTC
ergherhdfgh wrote:
I do not agree with this comment however I know that most people in this forum will agree with it.

I could go on a longer explanation about competition and the definition of the word "versus" but I'll just clarify it by saying that this game is PvP focused and most activities in this game involved PvP and all activities have the potential to involved PvP.


At this point, after revising my pre/mis-conceptions a lot, it's easier for me to say "sure, call it what you want" it's actually not important what it's called. I based my comments on CCP Falcon's comments as posted by King Ralph. It was, and still is a gear turner for me.

If you're thinking that all games could be definitionally PvP because they are MMO's then yes, you'd be correct so PvE is just a subset of what we call PvP. Even in that super popular MMO on a PvE server, you are still competing with other players at some level for some resources so CCP Falcon's points on that issue apply even there. EVE just sets the paranoia dial up a few notches since only in dock are you "safe".

If you look at if from an economic side, it's just input competition (PvE or R/CPvP) vs. output competition (SvSPvP), and the massive number of balance points in between.

It's a huge perspective shift to look at everything from a PvP lens, but now that I'm doing that for EVE, I realize all MMO's can be done like that in that same perspective.

In the end, we all choose our level of conflict/cooperation with other players and even the game mechanics, and the game being a sandbox, allows us to make that choice and live (or die) with the consequences. That's pretty cool, so I'm all for calling it as you see it, we just all need to be flexible enough to shift our perspectives so we can try to see what each other is saying so we understand things better.

You guys are awesome and have helped me see a lot here. I'm still dealing with the mental ramifications of it, so asking for a little continued patience with my ignorance and floating out ideas, but seriously, I am getting a better handle on it.

8 Golden Rules of EVE • EVE is entirely PvP
Avvy
Doomheim
#51 - 2016-02-11 16:31:39 UTC
It is something I used to use back in the days when there was no warp to zero.


Wouldn't use it these days though, better off making drink before you set out and drink it whilst on route.
Previous page123