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Match orders at best price
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Droidster
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2016-02-10 13:37:02 UTC
It should be obvious that the market should match orders at the best price possible, but this is not always happening.

For example, recently I went to sell a quantity of an item and created a sell order at Ƶ160,000 per unit, not realizing that there were multiple buy orders for the item at Ƶ170,000. The system executed my order at Ƶ160,000.

Ideally what it should have done is executed my order at the BUY prices until all possible buy orders were filled, then posted the remainder of the units at the sale price of Ƶ160,000.

So, to give an example. Lets imagine the buy order book is like the following:

1000 @ 170,000
4000 @ 165,000
5000 @ 162,000
9000 @ 155,000

and a person enters an order to sell 20,000 units at Ƶ 160,000, then what should happen is that 1000 units should be executed at Ƶ 170000, 4000 units should be executed at Ƶ 165000, 5000 units should be executed at Ƶ 162000 and then the remaining amount (13000 units) should be posted for sale at Ƶ 160,000.
Owen Levanth
Sagittarius Unlimited Exploration
#2 - 2016-02-10 16:29:43 UTC
The market has always been rather confusing for me.

I know from experience that people sometimes fumble and misclick on Sell-orders, which ends in them buying from me (since I have the lowest price) but to whatever price they clicked on (which is usually way higher).

It's kind of hilarious to see the Buy-orders having a similar behaviour.

On the other hand, it's quite logical, since the system can't read your mind. It sees someone clicking on a price 5x as high as the lowest one and has to assume the player knows what he is doing. So he pays 5x the lowest price, but since the system always fullfills orders from the lowest up, one of my items get sold and I get far more than I wanted. Nice!

In your case, the system saw you entering a far too low price but of course had to accept your input as valid. So one of those guys with a 170k buy-order just got an item for 160k, I assume.

I have no idea what the other guy saw, though. Did he get 10k money back? If this happens enough, will the fullfilled buy-order give the rest money back?

Remind me to test this some time.
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#3 - 2016-02-10 16:58:27 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Owen Levanth wrote:
The market has always been rather confusing for me.

I know from experience that people sometimes fumble and misclick on Sell-orders, which ends in them buying from me (since I have the lowest price) but to whatever price they clicked on (which is usually way higher).

It's kind of hilarious to see the Buy-orders having a similar behaviour.

On the other hand, it's quite logical, since the system can't read your mind. It sees someone clicking on a price 5x as high as the lowest one and has to assume the player knows what he is doing. So he pays 5x the lowest price, but since the system always fullfills orders from the lowest up, one of my items get sold and I get far more than I wanted. Nice!

In your case, the system saw you entering a far too low price but of course had to accept your input as valid. So one of those guys with a 170k buy-order just got an item for 160k, I assume.

I have no idea what the other guy saw, though. Did he get 10k money back? If this happens enough, will the fullfilled buy-order give the rest money back?

Remind me to test this some time.



It's not really that confusing.

Orders are already matched at the best price... for the pre-existing order, instead of the lazy idiot who came along after and offered an even better price. Big smile It's all really quite easy.

If you place a buy order, your price is actually the maximum you're willing to pay - not what you WILL pay. It could be less.

If you place a sell order, your price is the minimum you're willing to accept - not what you necessarily WILL be paid. It could be more.

They're quite analogous in form and function to real world market limit orders.

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Droidster
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2016-02-10 17:43:04 UTC
Owen Levanth wrote:
The market has always been rather confusing for me.

I know from experience that people sometimes fumble and misclick on Sell-orders, which ends in them buying from me (since I have the lowest price) but to whatever price they clicked on (which is usually way higher).

It's kind of hilarious to see the Buy-orders having a similar behaviour.

.....


Yes, it's just defective. I am not sure I find it comical. I guess it was comical in 2003, less so now.

I suppose we should just be grateful we even have a market order system at all. In WOW they can only make sell orders, no buy orders, and the tax rates are so punitive that narrow margin trading is not feasible.

Even so, you would think after 12 years the devs would get around to writing correct market code. It's not like this is some hard-to-understand voodoo. There are even open source projects that implement market trading systems. We are not talking gargantuan amounts of code here. This is 2500-line problem at most.

I do not really think it is a problem of understanding. The behavior of the system is consistent with somebody coding it in the fastest, most convenient way possible. So, I think the guy knew what he was doing was wrong, its just that he realized it would take him hours more time to do it right, so he just took the path of least resistance and coded it in a way that way that was as simple as possible for him to do. This kind of thing was defensible back in 2003 when they had a lot of bigger priorities than getting the market exactly right, but nowadays they really need to go back, revisit it and add the additional code to make the market function correctly in its details.
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#5 - 2016-02-10 17:58:08 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Droidster wrote:
Owen Levanth wrote:
The market has always been rather confusing for me.

I know from experience that people sometimes fumble and misclick on Sell-orders, which ends in them buying from me (since I have the lowest price) but to whatever price they clicked on (which is usually way higher).

It's kind of hilarious to see the Buy-orders having a similar behaviour.

.....


Yes, it's just defective. I am not sure I find it comical. I guess it was comical in 2003, less so now.

I suppose we should just be grateful we even have a market order system at all. In WOW they can only make sell orders, no buy orders, and the tax rates are so punitive that narrow margin trading is not feasible.

Even so, you would think after 12 years the devs would get around to writing correct market code. It's not like this is some hard-to-understand voodoo. There are even open source projects that implement market trading systems. We are not talking gargantuan amounts of code here. This is 2500-line problem at most.

I do not really think it is a problem of understanding. The behavior of the system is consistent with somebody coding it in the fastest, most convenient way possible. So, I think the guy knew what he was doing was wrong, its just that he realized it would take him hours more time to do it right, so he just took the path of least resistance and coded it in a way that way that was as simple as possible for him to do. This kind of thing was defensible back in 2003 when they had a lot of bigger priorities than getting the market exactly right, but nowadays they really need to go back, revisit it and add the additional code to make the market function correctly in its details.



The existing behavior is, by definition, basically the correct behavior for limit orders (certainly close enough for a video game).

Additionally, right click-> sell item should give you the highest buy order price regardless of sort order. If you sell at a price less than the optimal available bid, you went out of your way to do so.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Droidster
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2016-02-10 19:20:45 UTC
I considered the way the system currently works in more detail and it appears it is not due to lazy programming, but is simply a mistake in understanding by the programmer how trading systems work.

After doing a more careful analysis it appears the amount of work/code should be the same both for the correct process and what is being done now, so basically it is just a bug, so I am going to submit a bug report.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#7 - 2016-02-10 21:29:38 UTC
Someone sold me a PLEX for 125 million last week.

Because of that, I'm going to have to say no. Check your orders yourself and don't expect the system to do it for you.
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#8 - 2016-02-10 21:32:26 UTC
Droidster wrote:
I considered the way the system currently works in more detail and it appears it is not due to lazy programming, but is simply a mistake in understanding by the programmer how trading systems work.

After doing a more careful analysis it appears the amount of work/code should be the same both for the correct process and what is being done now, so basically it is just a bug, so I am going to submit a bug report.


No, per usual, you seem to be the only person around exhibiting any failure to understand.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Kuetlzelcoatl
#9 - 2016-02-11 00:40:49 UTC
Blindly offering to pay more than the requested price or sell for less than the offered price usually gets your orders moving much faster than others.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#10 - 2016-02-11 01:22:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Droidster wrote:
It should be obvious that the market should match orders at the best price possible, but this is not always happening.

For example, recently I went to sell a quantity of an item and created a sell order at Ƶ160,000 per unit, not realizing that there were multiple buy orders for the item at Ƶ170,000. The system executed my order at Ƶ160,000.

Ideally what it should have done is executed my order at the BUY prices until all possible buy orders were filled, then posted the remainder of the units at the sale price of Ƶ160,000.

So, to give an example. Lets imagine the buy order book is like the following:

1000 @ 170,000
4000 @ 165,000
5000 @ 162,000
9000 @ 155,000

and a person enters an order to sell 20,000 units at Ƶ 160,000, then what should happen is that 1000 units should be executed at Ƶ 170000, 4000 units should be executed at Ƶ 165000, 5000 units should be executed at Ƶ 162000 and then the remaining amount (13000 units) should be posted for sale at Ƶ 160,000.

TL;DR you ballsed up by asking for a lower price than people were willing to pay, and now you want CCP to change stuff to compensate for your incompetence.

You need to work on your obvious trolls btw, the occasional good idea, instead of your constant stream of ill considered bollocks, wouldn't hurt.

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Feyd's Survival Pack
Helios Anduath
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2016-02-12 01:34:57 UTC
OP, the market is working as intended - you are missing the point of what it is. The market in eve is not like a shop or an auction. It is much more analogous to a stock/security market than either of these - orders on the market are Limit orders. In other words, it is is a place where people say to a broker "I am willing to pay up to X for this" or "I am willing to sell this for Y" and the broker finds the "best" match based on the parameters of the orders so that the oldest, highest buy order gets filled first and so that the lowest, oldest sell order is filled first.

Looking at it like this, I have an item I want to buy and I am willing to pay up to 2 million ISK for it. You have an item that you want to sell but you only want 1 million ISK for it - why would I (or in this case my broker) pay you more than needed to get the item?

As for you underselling your items, you do know that when you right click on the item and click "sell" it auto-populates the price box with the value of the highest buy order? Just like when you try to buy something it auto-populates with the value of the lowest sell. The only way to sell (or buy) for more than this is to change the default value.
Droidster
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2016-02-12 01:48:54 UTC
I used to work for Merrill Lynch. For years I programmed accounting and trading systems at Fidelity. I know how markets work and how automated match making systems operate.
Amarisen Gream
The.Kin.of.Jupiter
#13 - 2016-02-12 07:42:42 UTC
Droidster wrote:
I used to work for Merrill Lynch. For years I programmed accounting and trading systems at Fidelity. I know how markets work and how automated match making systems operate.


I would say - write a better market for EVE and send the code to CCP and see what they do with it. You can use the DB/API to populate it

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Gadget Helmsdottir
Gadget's Workshop
#14 - 2016-02-12 14:33:01 UTC
Hey!

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