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War dec'ing woes
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RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#61 - 2012-01-10 21:26:46 UTC
nooblete wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
nooblete wrote:

I really like the standings idea. A lot of work to get there so a reward of being genuinely costly to dec (in that factions space) doesn't seem unfitting.


Wardecs aren't supposed to be costly. The Dec fee has always been a token amount, and it used to be the same token amount no matter how many outgoing decs were going on.

Why would the factions care about police (and Yulai convention) approved combat happening in their space, anyway?

Sorry?


Google.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Acorn FB
THE GOLDEN KNIGHTS
Shadow Ultimatum
#62 - 2012-01-10 22:08:52 UTC
I think the OP idea with some modifications could show some promise, since nothing in this game is more annoying than being decced by some "hot shot" alt PVP corp, just to get cheap kills. So you abandon your missioning spot, dust off your combat ships, set up for a few days of fighting. Then your oppenent realzes that he war decced based on the three newbs you just recruited, not realizing the 10+ experienced combat pilots could be on at one time. The deccer then hides in some station AFK while running some alt. THis is exacerbated by the fact the deccing corp is really a shell corp allowing the enemy combat pilots to slip in and out of the war dec, for the weekend.

So basically you can do one of three things, camp in station until he logs, log off yourself, or pointlessly mission in PVP fleets. Overall out of the week long dec maybe a newb or two get killed, maybe one vet gets bored (for deccer or deccee ) and gets blobbed and ends up a lol killmail, but all in all a major waste of time.

I would modify the OP initial proposal to this: The members of the wardeccing corporation (aggressor) are subject to be ejected from the station after a 5 minute timer upon request of the enity that was war decced (defender) , the agressor may log out instead, but this imposes a one hour secondary timer before the request expires. An option will be added to your client screen: If under a reject request: logoff (Y) or (N). This will prevent the death by going AFK issue. THe defender will be charged a service fee.

I also like the idea that standings in that area of space have an impact, since high standings "should" represent you are a good citizen of the faction and would tend to be favored over some interloper.

I really just hate hi sec wars because they are a) Lame, b) boring, and c) lower my income while being lame and boring.

And yes more than half the Lame and Boring wars I have been I would have been considered an aggressor (my corp mates like deccing things and making me come shoot abandoned hi-sec POSs) and if I am sitting in a station AFK just to scare some newbs I deserve to lose my ship and get podded.

sorry if this is a duplicate, silly forums
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#63 - 2012-01-10 22:56:46 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Acorn FB wrote:
since nothing in this game is more annoying than being decced by some "hot shot" alt PVP corp


Ahah hah he he ha

Oh hee haa hee haaaa haaaa AAAAHhhhhhahaha

I actually teared up a bit from that line. Let's see if I can make a song.

Logistics in Nullsec and Bombers on POSes
Shooting at Structures and Camping the Stations
AFK Hotdrops wrapped up in their Cloak,
These are a few of my annoying things

That said, I wouldn't change any of it (except structures).

Quote:

So basically you can do one of three things, camp in station until he logs, log off yourself, or pointlessly mission in PVP fleets. Overall out of the week long dec maybe a newb or two get killed, maybe one vet gets bored (for deccer or deccee ) and gets blobbed and ends up a lol killmail, but all in all a major waste of time.


Or keep an eye on local. Or do what the attacking corp does and drop corp when it's not advantageous to be in corp. Or.. or... or...

Quote:

I would modify the OP initial proposal to this: The members of the wardeccing corporation (aggressor) are subject to be ejected from the station after a 5 minute timer upon request of the enity that was war decced (defender) , the agressor may log out instead, but this imposes a one hour secondary timer before the request expires. An option will be added to your client screen: If under a reject request: logoff (Y) or (N). This will prevent the death by going AFK issue. THe defender will be charged a service fee.

I also like the idea that standings in that area of space have an impact, since high standings "should" represent you are a good citizen of the faction and would tend to be favored over some interloper.


Sov null has issues of people sitting AFK in a system causing problems. Most of the time we don't take kindly to the people who want to change the mechanics of that. So this would simply bring AFK cloaking to Hisec.

The factions are smart enough to stay out of the affairs of capsuleers.

Quote:

I really just hate hi sec wars because they are a) Lame, b) boring, and c) lower my income while being lame and boring.

And yes more than half the Lame and Boring wars I have been I would have been considered an aggressor (my corp mates like deccing things and making me come shoot abandoned hi-sec POSs) and if I am sitting in a station AFK just to scare some newbs I deserve to lose my ship and get podded.

sorry if this is a duplicate, silly forums


If the mechanics of the area of the game you choose play in are not to your taste (and had not significantly changed in 8 years[not counting the new DecShield shit]), leave the area of the game. If none of the gameplay areas in the game you choose to play are to your liking, leave the game.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#64 - 2012-01-10 23:00:08 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
nooblete wrote:

I really like the standings idea. A lot of work to get there so a reward of being genuinely costly to dec (in that factions space) doesn't seem unfitting.


Wardecs aren't supposed to be costly. The Dec fee has always been a token amount, and it used to be the same token amount no matter how many outgoing decs were going on.

Why would the factions care about police (and Yulai convention) approved combat happening in their space, anyway?


TBH, I don't care about the RP reasons why.... but I'm certain they can be found/created. I can get a faction boost for Gallente by running Sisters of Eve, I can get a faction boost for Minmatar by running Gallente missions.... And I think I can take faction hits by association too (I'm not really an expert on this).

I more versed in PvP, which is centered around consequences... War dec costs are negligible, and while there is the potential for retaliation, too often this risk is unrealistic.

A Faction standing hit for aggression is not overpowered, and provides an interesting consequence to declaring war. Additionally, standings can be repaired by missions and by recruitment. (lol, corps boost their standings so they can anchor towers, now imagine corps that boost their standings to punish their war-deccers).

I haven't given this enough thought to truly define where the limits should be, nor how the mechanics should/could be implemented. Its an idea I had, and if implemented right, I don't see a lot of downsides. If you do, please let me know. I think I'll create a more formal and intelligent post and run it throguh the F&I blackhole.
nooblete
Doomheim
#65 - 2012-01-11 02:03:50 UTC  |  Edited by: nooblete
RubyPorto wrote:

If the mechanics of the area of the game you choose play in are not to your taste (and had not significantly changed in 8 years[not counting the new DecShield shit]), leave the area of the game. If none of the gameplay areas in the game you choose to play are to your liking, leave the game.

So you're telling us to buck up because that's how the game is made? But also state that something you find annoying is an exception.

It's a game, and changes frequently, change is good, and defending how things are just because that's how it has been made doesn't mean they are fun, fair or "good."

As I've been playing I've spotted a few things that are not how the game currently acts. Should they all be discarded simply because "It's not how the game is now?"

Undo window resizes/moves.
Fire on a POS harbouring my enemies in high sec.
Add a skill to the queue when it's prereq's are not met because the prereqs are still training.
Blanket "configure container" settings so I don't have to set them all individually to unlocked.
Individually reset UI windows.
Single key to launch "first 5 available drones."
Right click someone's online notification icon to bring up context menu for that player.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#66 - 2012-01-11 02:28:27 UTC
nooblete wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:

If the mechanics of the area of the game you choose play in are not to your taste (and had not significantly changed in 8 years[not counting the new DecShield shit]), leave the area of the game. If none of the gameplay areas in the game you choose to play are to your liking, leave the game.

So you're telling us to buck up because that's how the game is made? But also state that something you find annoying is an exception.

It's a game, and changes frequently, change is good, and defending how things are just because that's how it has been made doesn't mean they are fun, fair or "good."

As I've been playing I've spotted a few things that are not how the game currently acts. Should they all be discarded simply because "It's not how the game is now?"

Undo window resizes/moves.
Fire on a POS harbouring my enemies in high sec.
Add a skill to the queue when it's prereq's are not met because the prereqs are still training.
Blanket "configure container" settings so I don't have to set them all individually to unlocked.
Individually reset UI windows.
Single key to launch "first 5 available drones."
Right click someone's online notification icon to bring up context menu for that player.


The idea of the game hasn't changed in 8 years. Hisec is safeer. It has never nor should it ever be "safe."

Improvements can be made, and they should be. But bleating over the fact that your activities can be mildly disrupted in the same way they've been able to be mildly disrupted for the past 8 years is ridiculous.

If you want to avoid wardecs, join an NPC corp. If you want to fight a fun war, find someone willing to fight a fun war against you (I hear EUni doesn't do fun wars anymore, after RvB violenced their POS without an evemail heads up).

Violating the time honored doctrine that the station is safe is an insane notion. Were it not insane, Sov alliances would be allowed to kick neuts out of the station well before someone in Hisec would be allowed to bribe CONCORD to kick someone out of a station Not Owned by CONCORD. The Factions don't have any hand in WarDecs, why would they kick someone out of a station over a wardec?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Outz Xacto
Echelon Munitions
#67 - 2012-01-11 18:15:09 UTC
OP:
You do realize a war dec is just paying CONCORD to look the other way while you shoot at someone. Paying CONCORD to kick someone from a station that isn't their sovereign space or station just simply doesn't even make sense.

I agree new ideas are great or doing things differently to improve the game and its gameplay, however, it sounds to me like you're looking for an easy out with alot of the suggestions and fail to grasp the numerous negative impacts caused (this isn't to just the OP but some of the other ideas thrown out).

There are a number of viable solutions currently available to you and at least on the surface it appears you have spent more time complaining about war decs and trying to create whimsical lackluster ideas, that frankly dont really add to the game in a meaningful way.

Most of this thread just looks like "well I don't want to do ________ I want it my way because I can't be bothered figuring out what else I can do already"

You and others may complain about broken mechanics and hold a banner of "new ideas will make it better and fix it" but really your new ideas are just as flawed if not more flawed, subsequently only compounding said "broken" mechanics rather than fixing them.

Like RvsB "you gave him a foot massage for a gun shot wound to the head?"
Salcon Cliff
Zephyr Corp
#68 - 2012-01-11 20:11:31 UTC
Booting someone from station is kind of silly, but I guess you could force-logoff an account that had no activity for a couple of hours or something. That could be regardless of war dec of not :). Me, I don't think that is the issue with war decs.

I do think there ought to be limitations to corp hopping (both for aggressor and defender, possibly), so maybe it takes 24 hours to 'acquire' kill rights on WTs and/or 24 hours to 'lose' WT status to the original dec'r (on a pilot by pilot basis).
Thea Siirian
Doomheim
#69 - 2012-01-13 02:25:34 UTC
+1 at a game mechanic force-booting you out of a station being an altogether troublesome idea. There are just too many alternatives to even list. IF you see only fight or ship spin you missed something.
Alaric Faelen
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#70 - 2012-01-14 15:43:45 UTC
Part of being a sandbox where you can do anything, means you also need to do a bit of everything, to survive.

Even the dedicated miners I know can fit a combat ship and die with dignity rather than squat cowering in station. Worse, you call them a couple noobs likely sitting AFK-- and this is the dire threat from which you disband or hide? Shameful.

I agree with the mob- good mob BTW- that hiding in high sec is the care bear way of griefing the PvP player as much as a war dec is the way to grief care bears.

It's just a case of 'make the game play how it suits me' - there are a great many mechanics that you enjoy but any that you don't need a 'fix'.
It's not actually broken.
DieZir
Interstellar Outlaws INC
#71 - 2012-01-15 19:01:23 UTC
The solution to your problem is simple - Just un-sub and never play Eve again. Problem solved.



Jana Syko
Grollwerk
#72 - 2012-01-16 03:53:06 UTC
Yes, I think unsubscribe is an option. The whole wardec mechanics is a joke. If we wardec a corp we never talked to, this would actually also be a sort of harassment when their player can not undock for a week or play the game. But they have to pay their account!

Is harassment of others not against the Eula? CCP violates the agreement with this wardec mechanics I think.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#73 - 2012-01-16 04:33:02 UTC
Jana Syko wrote:
. If we wardec a corp we never talked to, this would actually also be a sort of harassment when their player can not undock for 24 hrs or has to play the game while paying attention.


FYP. Stop whining.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Furey Zateki
Project Omega Industries
Fraternity.
#74 - 2012-01-22 05:22:50 UTC
Why not make it so against a fee you can as defending corp make it so after the Wardecking player/s undock they cant dock at that station again for a set amount of time, to remove the station games and so that the wardecking corp also will be put at risk.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#75 - 2012-01-22 05:28:57 UTC
Furey Zateki wrote:
Why not make it so against a fee you can as defending corp make it so after the Wardecking player/s undock they cant dock at that station again for a set amount of time, to remove the station games and so that the wardecking corp also will be put at risk.


So long as the attacking corp can do the same thing, sure. There is no reason why HiSec should ever have unbalanced mechanics between belligerents. Everyone should be able to do to other people what other people can do to them.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Ikra Atarm
The defenders of Greyskull inc.
#76 - 2012-01-23 09:24:05 UTC
Celtic Venom wrote:
Citizen Smif wrote:
nooblete wrote:
As you so adamantly state we have absolute choice in what we do. That is incorrect. At no point did I agree to the declaration of war. I forefeit my privilege of flying round high sec in a freighter on my own and unguarded because of a choice another player has made. Shouldn't that other player be put to some disadvantage due to a decision I make? Especially after making a change to the game for myself without any consent from myself?


I think you misunderstood what the above reply is saying.. We have absolute choice so long as it doesn't interfere with the freedom of other players. Your suggestion directly conflicts with this. You do have freedom to do anything you want within the game mechanics.. Wars are sanctioned by Concord and will not be interefered by them. You stated earlier on in your post that you just disbanded your corp when you were decced.. So after a measly 24 hours you are able to carry on with your hauling, is this not freedom?

The corp I'm in at the moment is dealing with a similiar situation to the one you've described. We've been decced by some noobs who refuse to come and fight us.. So now I can't really do much, I can't run incursions and I can't fight the WTs because they just stay docked up. I don't complain about it though, it's just one of those things that happen. Stop whining about 24 hours of not being able to haul, usually it's for a week. Wardecs can suck but if someone wants to waste their money trolling you then they can go for it. You never know, if you actively tried to hunt them I'm sure you'd catch a noob mission runner or something ;)

Good luck.

Edit: Also, I love dec mechanics as they currently are. Without wardecs high sec would become completely safe and static.. Your suggestion would just give a huge advantage to large alliances as well. Chase a player to a station, have a largish blob outside then just get concord to force them out.. I can only imagine the huge bump in KMs and tears like yours if this were implemented. You need to think through suggestions more, learn to meditate or something - get in control of those rage tears buddy. I do agree that it can be a pain in the arse though, especially for industry and miners but that's life - cést la vie.



The whole war dec in High sec space is ridiculous and far too cheap and easy

In my opinion a war dec should ONLY be an option if that players corp steals from or aggresses you NOT just cause the other guy is minding their own buisness

Currently the war dec in high sec is to force people (that dont want to go to low sec or pvp) to pvp
Placed by space jerks that even though they could go to low sec or faction war to get pvp have to be scum and bother everyone else

Let people mission/mine in peace or change the war dec system to let the victim of a gank or theft in high sec to place a war dec INSTEAD of the cowardly placed war decs from people that just cant hack it in low sec

High sec war dec = pvp griefing by people that dont have the skills or brains nor the courage to live in low sec

Low sec --->->-> thata way

If ya all really looking for a fight go to low sec or faction war and be a hero

Posted like a true care bear who was war decced also if every one jus fits up a t1 frig an try's catch the wts they should stop deccing u or join an alliance an leave an it cancels war dec this is known as Sheild deccing
Sinooko
Tharumec
Gespenster Kompanie
#77 - 2012-01-25 22:34:58 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
IMO, wardecs are currently broken.

Non-consentual PvP is an important part of EvE, and hisec wardecs are a good idea (even if the current implementation is fail).

The idea to kick a player out of station isn't all that fail.... people can easily log off when in station to stay safe. It would definitely put a disadvantage onto the deccing corp, which is NOT a bad thing. However, a game mechanic that encourages people to log off is a bad idea in general.

CCP's newest theme is war, so I expect they will alter wardec mechanics significantly over the next year. Currently, with corp hopping, and the cheap price of wardecs, the mechanic is broken.

I would think putting out general guidelines on what works, and what fails in the current wardec scheme would be very helpful to CCP.

Working as intended:
Allowing an aggressor corp to wardec any Player corp they want.
The only "safety" from wardecs comes from NPC corps.
Mutual wardecs: RvB is an excellent example of how wardecs work!

Fails:
Corp hopping: The ease at which corps can evade wardecs by jumping to another corp.
Corp hopping: The ease at which aggressors can hop corps to weekend gank.
Price: The price of wardecs is laughably low. There is essentially no cost to wardecs.

Potential (not necessarily good) ideas:

Provide a disadvantage to the aggressing corp. Currently, cost is NOT a disadvantage.
-- Concord can be bought to boot people out of stations in which their corp doesn't hold an office? (Meh)
-- Players can NOT join an aggressing corp during one-sided wardecs? (+1)
-- Additional concord taxes on all rewards and market transactions? (meh)
-- War deccer's get standing penalties to factions based on the wardeccee's standings (i.e., dec a few +10 Amarr mission running corps, and your corp suddenly has -10 faction standings to Amarr, hence amarr police attack in amarr space) (+1, but hard to balance)

Regional/factional Wardecs? Each wardec is limited to a faction's space (Caldari, Amarr, etc)? (+/-)

Corp Life Risk vs Reward:
-- Increase the benefits of being in a player corp vs NPC, and don't allow players to so quickly evade wardecs.
-- Forcing players into unwanted wars needs to be balanced with limits on war duration.


I like the way you think.