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Cidanel Afuran
Grant Village
#21 - 2016-02-09 18:15:50 UTC
pajedas wrote:
Not calling everyone sheep, just you.


https://i.imgur.com/wYawI.gif
pajedas
Doomheim
#22 - 2016-02-09 18:39:51 UTC
Cidanel Afuran wrote:
pajedas wrote:
Not calling everyone sheep, just you.


https://i.imgur.com/wYawI.gif

Glad to see that you brought your "A game".

🐇
Cidanel Afuran
Grant Village
#23 - 2016-02-09 19:11:13 UTC
pajedas wrote:
Glad to see that you brought your "A game".


http://i.imgur.com/ozEmMMK.gif
Droidster
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2016-02-09 20:14:03 UTC
Pay to win FTL.

I made a suggestion to the new ideas forum suggesting how to use skill extractor ranges to avoid the need for the SP loss you describe and allow for a 1:1 trade.

That was before I found out that extractors were not player-made, but were being sold by the company for money ("aurum"), in other words pay-to-win.

There is no scenario in which this can be "fixed". The 1:1 issue is really a non-issue if you consider that the whole thing is a pay-to-win scheme, so the SP shrinkage does not really matter. The shrinkage is going to come off of alts, farmed alts in many cases, so the effect of this is to just inflate the SP of players who pay money to the game company: ie pay-to-win, a very bad thing.
Frank Truck
ACME Mineral and Gas
#25 - 2016-02-09 21:07:47 UTC
Droidster wrote:
Pay to win FTL.

I made a suggestion to the new ideas forum suggesting how to use skill extractor ranges to avoid the need for the SP loss you describe and allow for a 1:1 trade.

That was before I found out that extractors were not player-made, but were being sold by the company for money ("aurum"), in other words pay-to-win.

There is no scenario in which this can be "fixed". The 1:1 issue is really a non-issue if you consider that the whole thing is a pay-to-win scheme, so the SP shrinkage does not really matter. The shrinkage is going to come off of alts, farmed alts in many cases, so the effect of this is to just inflate the SP of players who pay money to the game company: ie pay-to-win, a very bad thing.


I don't agree, to me the extractor is a container, the commodity is the skills it holds.

Selling the "container" is like a tax.

Wait, CCP is taxing us!! :(
Memphis Baas
#26 - 2016-02-09 21:12:27 UTC
I'll repeat my idea from pg. 1: CCP should implement true / literal pay-to-win: you pay 1000 aurum and a killboard loss gets displayed as a win (if someone else is nice enough to PVP and extract their win and sell it to you).
Avvy
Doomheim
#27 - 2016-02-09 21:13:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Avvy
Droidster wrote:
Pay to win FTL.

I made a suggestion to the new ideas forum suggesting how to use skill extractor ranges to avoid the need for the SP loss you describe and allow for a 1:1 trade.

That was before I found out that extractors were not player-made, but were being sold by the company for money ("aurum"), in other words pay-to-win.

There is no scenario in which this can be "fixed". The 1:1 issue is really a non-issue if you consider that the whole thing is a pay-to-win scheme, so the SP shrinkage does not really matter. The shrinkage is going to come off of alts, farmed alts in many cases, so the effect of this is to just inflate the SP of players who pay money to the game company: ie pay-to-win, a very bad thing.



The loss of skill points is irrelevant.

Someone creates an injector for sale using 500k sp, someone else buys it and injects 400k or less.

The lose doesn't matter, the seller has removed 500k, but the buyer gets whatever they get.

Don't think of it just as sp, consider it more as isk.

The loss is irrelevant because the seller knows what they are using (500k) and the buyer knows what they are getting (sp in terms of isk).
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#28 - 2016-02-09 21:22:18 UTC
if you dont want/like loss of skill points - dont extract them?
You decide.
Neuntausend
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#29 - 2016-02-09 21:46:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Neuntausend
SP sink is just the consequence of SP being tradeable. SP simply grow on their own. Some players are already at their "personal SP cap" - meaning that they don't need to trade anything anymore and can sell whatever they train right away. There needs to be a reliable way (beyond players leaving the game) to "use them up". Otherwise nobody is going to pay for them anymore in a year or so, because there's an abundance of SP available on the market. And if nobody is willing to pay for them, nobody is going to buy extractors, which would ruin CCPs shiny new source of income.

To be frank, I think the losses are still rather tame. For this to work reliably, CCP would need to implement more ways to get rid of SP beyond trading and T3 losses. I don't know - one could lose SP when getting podded for example. Blink
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#30 - 2016-02-09 22:27:42 UTC
pajedas wrote:
Enter Skill Point Trading:

Has anybody considered the overall impact on the total number of skill points in Eve?

Just for round easy numbers, say there's a 20% decrease in total SP's in New Eden in the first month. All those skills that were trained in real time are lost forever. (Why?)

Why lose SP's? Seriously. Are the tools used so inefficient that they can't achieve a 1:1 transfer?

We paid our subscriptions and trained those skills for years. They should not be lost.

I know some will say, "You don't have to trade them". Absolutely true, but if you're going to offer something to "help" us, why the crappy exchange rate?

If you can transfer my skills to a clone at 1:1 everytime I get podded or make a jump, why the sudden downgrade in technology?


It's called risk versus reward. You risk your skillpoints for a great reward. That reward being you can now allocate those skillpoints where you should have put them in the first place.

The penalty comes from you being stupid and not thinking out a better skill plan, or resorting to the use of skill extractors/injectors in the first place. They are a totally voluntary thing. You don't like the returns? Then don't participate.
Celthric Kanerian
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#31 - 2016-02-09 22:58:11 UTC
pajedas wrote:
Enter Skill Point Trading:

Has anybody considered the overall impact on the total number of skill points in Eve?

Just for round easy numbers, say there's a 20% decrease in total SP's in New Eden in the first month. All those skills that were trained in real time are lost forever. (Why?)

Why lose SP's? Seriously. Are the tools used so inefficient that they can't achieve a 1:1 transfer?

We paid our subscriptions and trained those skills for years. They should not be lost.

I know some will say, "You don't have to trade them". Absolutely true, but if you're going to offer something to "help" us, why the crappy exchange rate?

If you can transfer my skills to a clone at 1:1 everytime I get podded or make a jump, why the sudden downgrade in technology?


Because it would be too overpowered. And you are supposed to actual think about what you want to train for. You shouldn't wastefully through potential sp away. Simple as ******* can be.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#32 - 2016-02-09 23:11:19 UTC
pajedas wrote:
Cidanel Afuran wrote:
pajedas wrote:
Because being one of the sheep is so much fun...


Kind of hard to take someone seriously who calls people sheep.

I have never used more than level 3 learning implants, given I have virtually never been in high sec. I also took a three month break, forgot to cancel one subscription and didn't have anything in the queue. Should I petition CCP because of lost skillpoints for those? After all, they are my god given right, yeah?

Not calling everyone sheep, just you.

loss is essential. isk is too easy to get, without sp loss you could reconfigure your chars constantly whenever you needed to fly or fit something. well the rich could which woukd be pretty imba

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#33 - 2016-02-09 23:16:10 UTC
I doubt there will be any real loss anyways as sp trading opens up a whole market for farmers, which will be training sp purely for sale.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#34 - 2016-02-09 23:25:11 UTC
pajedas wrote:
Enter Skill Point Trading:

Has anybody considered the overall impact on the total number of skill points in Eve?

Just for round easy numbers, say there's a 20% decrease in total SP's in New Eden in the first month. All those skills that were trained in real time are lost forever. (Why?)

Why lose SP's? Seriously. Are the tools used so inefficient that they can't achieve a 1:1 transfer?

We paid our subscriptions and trained those skills for years. They should not be lost.

I know some will say, "You don't have to trade them". Absolutely true, but if you're going to offer something to "help" us, why the crappy exchange rate?

If you can transfer my skills to a clone at 1:1 everytime I get podded or make a jump, why the sudden downgrade in technology?


Game balance?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
pajedas
Doomheim
#35 - 2016-02-10 00:12:19 UTC
Everyone's explaining this from a political standpoint because there is no logical answer.

CCP is effectively "letting" people flush trained SP's down the drain.

And you guys don't think that's intentional?

Q: Who decided to make less efficient gas burning engines?
A: The people selling the oil.

Fix the machine!

🐇
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#36 - 2016-02-10 00:38:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
pajedas wrote:
Everyone's explaining this from a political standpoint because there is no logical answer.

CCP is effectively "letting" people flush trained SP's down the drain.

And you guys don't think that's intentional?

Q: Who decided to make less efficient gas burning engines?
A: The people selling the oil.

Fix the machine!


Of course I think it is intentional. Totally and complete intentional. CCP has deliberately put in an SP sink into the game.

Oh and historical point of interest...J.D. Rockefeller...was a huge proponent of improving efficiency at his refineries. He was quite good at it. For example, where other refineries dumped gasoline into rivers and treated it as waste, he had his plants set up to use it to run machinery. His company also marketed another byproduct as well...vasoline.

Oh, and Rockefeller was refining to produce kerosene, not gasoline initially. Whale oil was rather pricey. During Rockefeller's tenure as the head of Standard Oil, kerosene prices dropped dramatically.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Cidanel Afuran
Grant Village
#37 - 2016-02-10 00:48:54 UTC
pajedas wrote:
CCP is effectively "letting" people flush trained SP's down the drain.

And you guys don't think that's intentional?


Yep, that's why they removed SP loss on clone death not too long ago.
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#38 - 2016-02-10 01:05:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Cipher Jones
The number of SP in the game will go down, yes. But the bigger picture is that there are thousands of characters doing **** all right now. Those characters will now be sucked dry and new characters are going to buy up the skills and help make it easy for new players. New players that will be spending money on the game now.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Jessica23Atreides
Perkone
Caldari State
#39 - 2016-02-10 01:46:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Jessica23Atreides
Who cares if there is a 20% drop across the board. I don't need Mining III to fly my Tengu and indy players don't need Surgical Strike V to fly an Orca.

The whole idea is to begin to close the gap between 2003 players and some kid who happens to see a 21-day free-trial for Eve in the corner on RealityKings tomorrow afternoon. Veteran players reward = tonz.TONZ.T O N Z of ISK and the ability to re-spec their toon or polish off those damn specialization skills we all have sitting at IV.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#40 - 2016-02-10 01:47:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
pajedas wrote:
Everyone's explaining this from a political standpoint because there is no logical answer.

CCP is effectively "letting" people flush trained SP's down the drain.

And you guys don't think that's intentional?

Q: Who decided to make less efficient gas burning engines?
A: The people selling the oil.

Fix the machine!

theres mothing political about a mechanic thats designed to reduce (not eliminate) sucking out a skill when you wanna fly a specific ship with fittings at max skill then injecting them back later. some people have trillions of isk, no SP loss would make it much to easy to reconfigure skills whenever you wanted to. with SP loss theres a penalty to using your own sp rather than buying it from others.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)