Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Current:

Personal Enmity
Cartel Behavior (market capture and moon goo)
Topology/Stellar Geographics*

Personal Enmity - Hey that guy betrayed me or has a punchable face...lets invade his space and bust it up
Common-esque overlays with organizational politics.

Cartel Behavior - Mostly Moon Goo related and controling market access to materials and maintaining price controls so leadership can get fat while line members NPC in carriers that HK catches (thanks guys). This is how coalitions cometogether and break up - cooperation and emergent play - "Competition is a sin" - John D. Rockefeller

Topology/SG: Examine that Cache is terrible in system count but is fairly hard to access despite not being all that deep in space versus Providence that has excellent access. Much more conflict happens in providence on all scales thanks to more systems that are more accessible. Deklein is a vertical damned fortress the way it it laid out and is nearly impregnable to assault as such. Logistically challenging maybe for resupply but JF's + WH's +BLOPS bridges make it eminently a success.

So why the lack of conflict? I have a few theories as well as possible solutions.

Minimal Conflict:

1) Cartel Behavior - enemies agree not to threaten each others' sov - mutual beneficial for power players to keep the ISK rolling in
2) Cartel Behavior II - Moon goo accords like the B0tlord and OTEC stuff related specifically to moons
3) Phoebe - difficult to project overwhelming force means logistics are more complicated and time consuming but also enable more regional/constellation level players
4) Regulatory Flux: This is the big one IMO - Since the Phoebe Sov and subsequent iterations have been put in EVE has been in a period of flux where committing to anything is a bad move. This is similar to allowing for tremendous mis-allocations of capital by not communicating a monetary policy or more appropriately how the USA currently handles Gen IV+nuclear reactor regulation - there isn't any so no one can make a wise investment as the risks aren't clear.
5) You Don't Roam Home Space - It would be like roaming your house or yard all day waiting for 1 poor person to step over your property line just so you can shoot him/her.
6) High Sec Incursions: You don't need to live in sov space to earn isk you can just have an alt that runs incursions in near perfect safety.

How to fix this - to a degree at least:

1) Make Moon mining a player activity and make the moon materials be dynamic and somewhat randomly generated so that tech/neo/dispro moon isn't always that type.
1a) player activity should be rewarded as should living in that space; dynamic materials means you have a reason to alway s be out scanning even those dead moons - possibly enhances the life of people in otherwise useless space - creates potential conflict driver.
2) Having players actually mine the material loosens the control leadership has over resource control/distribution and will eventually break up some of the cartel control - also might provide a more useful role for siphon units - draining that moon goo while players are AFK/logged off.

3 & 4) Only solved once the new system approaches the next phase in June and players can evaluate the new systems benefits more fully - CCP need to be clear on what happens to the old outposts on their roadmap. I personally would say that planting a citadel of any kind should trigger a 7 day self destruct timer on any outpost in null sec. This will spur short term conflicts since anyone could potentially do this with medium class citadels. In the long term it solves a lot of problems with the overlapping period.

5) I'm sure player built stargates will mitigate this to some degree assuming players can connect gates to any system in null sec that isn't cyno jammed or something like that. (maybe requires a second one to be deployed in target system - or enabled as a one way gate). Discuss please.

5a) Way back when...I'm sure most of you don't remember but the gate layout was vastly different from what it is today with both less access, fewer systems and a much more closely connected high sec environment. I propose another "Great Gate Redirect" as a part of the RP narrative with Minmatar and Caldari being a bit more closely aligned and adding some new navy/fleet sites in every security level of space that all go to far flung null sec but are temporary like WH's are. Make them anoms so you don't have to probe them.

There should be NO high sec between caldari and gallente space no between amarr and minmatar. The fragmentation should grow with the border zones like Perimeter/iyen-Oursta being separated from each other to low sec of those regions and added to FW space. (maybe drop security of Perimeter to 0.5 as a result of this change - my god the suicide gank carnage haha).

6) Make High Sec Incursions LP only - increase LP payout by 50% and once an incursion hits 100% within 8 hours the mothership site spawns and it is all over. No more 7 day grinds. Push super carrier bpc drop to 100% in low sec if it isn't already and reduce high sec incursion spawn rate by half - increasing it in low sec to compensate. For null sec incursions - increase ISK payout by 100% and LP by 25% over even the low sec. Make the sansha forces fight back harder in null sec like incursions were originally. And if not dealt with - spread like cancer to neighboring constellations - only crossing regions when the entire originating region is under sansha control. This should include NPC sov as well with maybe in-space NPC agents offering incursion related missions as a mini-event.

I'm not saying this will solve anything and I'm sure my incursion ideas will be hated - but I consider the risk/reward ratio for incursions to be way off the target for high sec. So disagree if you like - but please back it up with something rational besides your own casual style

My prediction is true - first poster concerned about being a casual.

Look it isn't like I don't have experience in this and I'm talking out of my sphincter ok? I have experienced the income of a grindy incursion fleet and I know many people who continue to do it.

So to help you with an idea of W-space income I'll provide a healthy range for you with one clarification - once we run sites - they disappear and only reappear quickly if others in w-space are also running or at least de-spawning sites. This is not always the case and it is a more dynamic environment than null-sec where it respawns within 60 seconds of being run.

C1-2: 100M-150M isk/hour - total amount mostly determined by number of sites which can be 0 and remain at 0 especially if some jerk is despawning your sites by pre-warping them (all w-space sites have a 4 day timer once warp is initiated).

c3 - 250M/hr

c4 - 250-400M/hour

c5 - Hero Dread with all capital escalations - 2.5b/hour maximum (roughly 6-700M/ site)

c6 - Similar to C5 if done with capitals

The infrastructure required to run the c5/6 sites is fairly intense and you can get killed by anyone rolling into you at any time and you can also easily get log-on trapped by a hostile prober that is spaying on you in your system. I know because we seed carebears running their sites all the time.

On a per-person basis for c5/6 if you run as a group - again more sites = more isk but assuming 1 site per person and a 7 person fleet including all support... 70 minutes for 600-700M for a single pilot repeat that 4x over 4 days for 2.8B for roughly 3 hours of play.

You're welcome for the education. Maybe you'll give w-space a try.

You're paranoid about the "high sec" attack.

1) I don't care about the income quite as much as I do the safety of the activity in relation to the income. If you want incursion income then you should put up with an associated amount of risk...and you do not. Aside from the occasional suicide gank or logi pilot who decides not to repair you.

2) incursions are consistent and constant income - similar to nullsec anoms if you want a direct comparison. W-space is its own thing with a very dynamic environment that requires fairly intense effort just to live in much less make an income out of. I'm not measuring things in Units of Incursion. That isn't even a real metric. You can't really get an average continuously for WH's thanks to its variability. And this is why you're stuck in high sec. It is entirely about the lack of risk - not about the isk/hour but that you can continue it without major interference.

3) Non-FW Low Sec needs some sort of boost and maybe citadels will help with that and the other structures CCP plans on introducing. I'd like to see low sec citadels able to have an NPC Office they can rent to a faction with high standings - so say Mara with a Guristas level 3/4 agent or a Caldari Navy 3/4 agent. Or Zainou Biotech or whatever...

4) Null Sec needs its anoms made more varied with more webbing and even actual warp scrambling rats (not disruption). High end sites should have web and neut towers and pay out more as a result but also be less frequent (FML my probe scanner). Null Sec local should have a 30 second to 60 second delay in player sov areas unless someone has an intel upgrade. That intel upgrade (observatory structure) should be disabled once a cyno jammer is active. You can have one type of safety but not both...the exception maybe being your designated capital system so you can have your great wall of deklein or whatever.

I like some of the ideas as how to fix Null Sec. Moon goo as it was originally designed made it too easy to be strictly funneled to the few.

But, tying your Null Sec "fix" to a Hi Sec activity only shows the misguided idea that it somehow directly completes with your Null Sec fix.

Living in Null Sec is really only for those who can find the spare time to do it. I used to have such spare time, but now do not. I used to do the Null Sec thing and had a lot of fun doing it, but now I cannot. As with everything, there are exceptions to that rule, but for most, living in Null Sec can be far too time consuming and would directly interfere with more important RL needs and issues.

Many Null Sec dwellers seem to think that incursions is somehow cutting into their fun. That if Incursions would just go away or severely limited, all their Null Sec issues would be resolved. But I suggest that many of the players who do Incursions don't have the time for the Null Sec thing or have done it and are disgusted with the way things have been setup out there.

There is a dirty little secret about Null Sec that is amazingly familiar with real life. The rich keep getting richer and the poor keep getting poorer. Most of the super rich were or are leaders of large alliances in Null Sec. All that moon goo and taxes gets funneled to their control; then either someone steals a large chunk of it, or there is a failscade and everything gets split among the few at the top, or it stays up there, in the control of the few.

The average player that goes to Null Sec is strictly a pawn that gets fed leftovers and is left to fend for themselves when things go bad. Suddenly all ship replacement programs are stopped and it is left up to you to firesale or keep your things locked up indefinitely in a hostile station. The only options for the average guy is to either wait it out or join the side that invaded.

And all that moon goo goes to the few at the top. Rinse and repeat for about a decade and the super rich don't really need much more isk and are getting bored with the game and blame it all on everyone else but themselves or the game mechanics that allowed this to happen.

It doesn't take a degree in economics to see that the ones in control of Null Sec are silly rich and they themselves have no reason to go to war. They are already stupidly rich and simply prevent any others from threatening them by removing them as noxious weeds before they could be a threat.

The problem with Null Sec is that those in control of it are so rich they have lost the need for controlling more than they have and simply want to keep that status quo and blame everything else for it.

The Moon mining mechanic and the Alliance structure are the biggest contributors to getting us here. It allowed the very few to control the biggest ways to gain isk in the game and keep that isk for themselves when things go bad with no accountability.

The problem with Null Sec are the ones who are in control of it who have such vastly greater isk to anyone who could challenge them that it simply stifles any gameplay to change the status quo.

Now what are incursions role in this? They are one of the few ways isk can be quickly made in the game that those who are in control of Null Sec can't directly control.

Incursions is where many of the former pawns of Null Sec have gone to make some isk for themselves, to maybe go back to Null Sec someday when they have enough isk to challenge the current owners.

I would agree that Null Sec has lost many to Incursions. But it was the greed of the few that gave them a reason to leave. Now those few want to shut off that outlet to force the pawns back into their control.

I say cut off all Moon Goo and make it a player activity like you suggest, but don't do anything to incursions because that is one of the few ways others can gain isk that the few silly rich can't somehow gain control of.

Then eventually, we will get new leaders of Null Sec with a better system to spread the wealth instead of focusing it into the hands of the few, who most will only become eventually bored, like when you have 10 times the money you ever spend in a game where you have got all the best gear.


That is why your idea of changing Incursions is so bad. It is because it plays into the hands of the stupidly rich, who already can control any way of getting isk in Null Sec as it is now.

Whoa Whoa there Karl Marx. Back off the socialist screed a little bit. There is no dirty little secret about null sec...they are in-fact quite open about moon goo being their personal piggy banks. They however do redistribute much of it in the form of SRP. Null sec players actually get quite a nice deal out of it in fact and it should encourage fights - and often has done in the past.

My Null Sec Fix isn't in any regard tied to high sec. I didn't say it had to all be done or none of it. That is how children read. One could take any part of what I suggest and implement it to effect change in the game. The all or nothing argument is a non-sequitur and you should be ashamed for suggesting such a thing.

Whether or not incursion runners are disgusted with current null sec politics isn't my concern - so much as that they feel an inalienable right to have the incursions remain unchanged and their income stream left uninterrupted - simply because they like it that way. I had this argument with a fellow WH resident who was angry with me putting a probing scout in his hole. He also felt entitled to that income and in-fact felt like it was a PERSONAL attack as it seems many high sec whiners do. It isn't. You don't get high income and safety in my opinion.

I already identified the moon goo and cartel behavior as a problem in null - not sure why you're using that to justify incursions status quo rather than my suggestion of disrupting null sec via player interaction and dynamic moon materials.

There are many null sec fc's and players who run incursions on alts - it isn't like one player can't do both - they do. They even apply many of the same divide and conquer tactics in the larger groups to fence out independent runners. Don't be fooled you're still a null sec puppet.

It wasn't greed for isk that made people leave null sec for incursions - it was reliability and safety.

Your conclusion is shallow and lacks sincerity - I have done nothing but suggest disruption to the null sec powers and to boost player progression in non-fw low sec. High sec has the vast majority of players and has plenty of content - I am not suggesting NO incursions in high sec - although I will post another alternative you will hate subsequently. I want more ISK in the hands of the average null bear not less and if you examine my suggestions you will see that I am speaking truly.

My other idea that you will also hate is that high sec constellations with an incursion have their sec status dropped to 0.4 until the players have beaten it back to 100% and reestablished CONCORD control of the systems - that is after all the RP goal of the events.

It is much simpler than my previous suggestion but I was attempting to leave you the security you desire in high sec. So if it is all about the ISK then perhaps this idea works out better for you? I have no problem increasing low sec payouts another 100% in that case.

legit criticism. well minus the substance and sincerity.

Actually read your journal for incursions for the last 3 months, there is a full time low sec incursion community out there, I believe it's russian from what I know.

Asks to be shown low sec incursions being regularly run, then complains when shown low sec incursions being regularly run.
You sir win the troll of the week award.

1) no they can't drop caps - incursions are cyno jammed...they could blops drop however. Too bad for you.
2) who cares about drugs?
3) you can beat the incursion in a day if you really wanted to instead of grinding for 7
4) I already said that safety was the issue not ISK
5) I haven't seen CCP say one word about incursions - please link or provide evidence.
6) its "by the droves" not troves.
7) It feels like no one read anything I wrote except about high sec - I feel like I'm taking crazy pills