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Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#141 - 2016-02-03 20:04:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Lan Wang
Orion Pax wrote:
Eternus8lux8lucis wrote:
Ive already started earmarking where I can benefit from such things on mains and alts. Theres really a plethora of situations where it will be VERY handy. And for those sitting on 80mil SP plus a skill injector will destroy more SP than it gives to the player. Its really not a bad situation for the integrity of SP.

In the example I posted previously of a 80mil SP toon gaining another 100mil SP youd have to harvest 333.5mil SP to do so. Thats a HUGE net SP loss. Now think of how many 5mil + toons will do so as everyone OVER 5mil SPs will create a net loss of SPs. You do the math and realize how many spare SP are going to be destroyed and how much MORE value YOUR precious puritan SP will contain and hold after this. This is like the Fed reserve destroying dollars and reversing inflation.



It's pretty obvious that the net SP will be a loss. There's no question about that. However the average amount of SP a main toon will have will go up substantially. Overall everyone's main will have more SP and there will be a lot less toons with lesser amounts of SP. Most of the toons with less SP, on a relative scale, will be used to farm SP and it will be used for one's main or to sell for isk. Overall it devalues the worth of SP since you can buy it and use it to customize your toon as much as you'd like. Sure CCP will initially have a huge rush in sales but in the long run, I can see CCP losing customers due to instant gratification.

Think about it this way, you have a dream car you want to buy, and you've spent years working towards it. You spend all your time and energy researching and learning about it and working that odd job to save a little extra. Finally the day comes and you buy your dream car. However you just happen to win the exact same car through a raffle. Both are new, and are exactly the same. But say you need some extra cash to pay for some expense. Which one do you think you're going to sell?

Easy come, easy go. Eve Online will be losing a lot of value due to this choice.


raffle? you still have to buy the sp its more like building your dream car with little bits at a time, or having donor cars to strip parts from and fit to make an even better car, everything still has a value regardless because you still have to either pay or work for it

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
N00B-SAIB0T
MK Financial
#142 - 2016-02-03 20:55:07 UTC
I only foresee this as a problem for new players that are tripping over themselves for the fanciest ships/modules.

Personally I plan to extract approximately 28,000,000 Skill Points from one of my alts and inject it into a main and then biomass the source. I can't wait.

I personally don't care if I'm a target of this effort. My philosophy has always been to forego flashy ships and expensive modules by compensating with pure skill. With the proper skills, I've always been able to run very effective T1 battleships with T2 modules for L4s or Incursions. This new skill extraction feature will allow me to strengthen this strategy with a few clicks. There are a handful of skills that I need to bring up to Level 5 but never really committed the time to. After the proper allocations, I'll have an even lesser need to go beyond T2. That's just my way of doing it though.

The point is that if you know what you're doing and don't get ahead of yourself, you'll be fine. New players will struggle with this. Worse comes to worse for me, I'll lose a cheap T1 battleship which could be lost in a mission or incursion anyways.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#143 - 2016-02-03 22:35:49 UTC
Orion Pax wrote:

It's pretty obvious that the net SP will be a loss. There's no question about that. However the average amount of SP a main toon will have will go up substantially. Overall everyone's main will have more SP and there will be a lot less toons with lesser amounts of SP.


No, I doubt this will be the outcome. I for example will not use it on my main (injecting that is). I won’t even use it on my oldest alt (who is about to break 100 million SP). Even my other alts are high enough SP and close enough to where I want them that the diminishing returns make the use of SP injectors the least preferred method of gaining SP.

In fact, some SP might be coming from main characters depending on the cost of SP extractors. For example, I might be able to scrounge enough SP On my main to justify buying maybe 1 SP extractor. Depending on the prices I might farm SP on an alt. But overall the market could be surprisingly thin. Depends on the price of an extractor. For example, my guess is that the long run price of a SP injector will be bounded below by about 1/3 the price of PLEX. If I can sell my SP injectors from a farming alt to cover the cost of a PLEX and the extractors I'll probably farm SP. If not, harder to say.

As for your car example, I’d go back to the dealership and invoke the clause where I essentially cancel the sale and get my money back less a restocking fee. Then off I’d go in my newly won car with all that money I earned to have a good time! Big smile

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#144 - 2016-02-03 23:06:04 UTC
Orion Pax wrote:
Think about it this way, you have a dream car you want to buy, and you've spent years working towards it. You spend all your time and energy researching and learning about it and working that odd job to save a little extra. Finally the day comes and you buy your dream car. However you just happen to win the exact same car through a raffle. Both are new, and are exactly the same. But say you need some extra cash to pay for some expense. Which one do you think you're going to sell?

Easy come, easy go. Eve Online will be losing a lot of value due to this choice.
I'm not sure how this analogy really works in parallel to the change. Mainly due to the fact that training is a different mechanic than saving money (the former is an inevitability while the latter involves either decreasing spending or increasing earning continuously till the goal is met) and the injector mechanic is even less relatable to a raffle.

If anything it's actually the injector mechanic which most resembles saving/working for the car actively (the value of research is the same either way), but I doubt such a relation was your intention.
Takari
Promised Victorious Entropy
#145 - 2016-02-04 00:05:37 UTC
I'll be injecting.. Come get some..

"Roll the dice, don't think twice. This is the way of things. Welcome to EVE." ~ CCP Falcon

"Good luck, shoot straight and don't back down." - Serendipity Lost
Iria Ahrens
Space Perverts and Forum Pirates
#146 - 2016-02-04 01:03:09 UTC
Do I really need an excuse to hunt and kill players?

My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#147 - 2016-02-04 04:00:55 UTC
Iria Ahrens wrote:
Do I really need an excuse to hunt and kill players?


Nope, have at it! And good luck.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Orion Pax
Yoyodyne corporation
#148 - 2016-02-04 11:22:22 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:

raffle? you still have to buy the sp its more like building your dream car with little bits at a time, or having donor cars to strip parts from and fit to make an even better car, everything still has a value regardless because you still have to either pay or work for it


The analogy's meaning is about "hard earned" vs "easily earned". The SP injection system makes it easier to gain SP, so there's a loss in value because now you can buy it with money. You don't have to earn it through patience and perseverance. It's less "rare", so it's worth less.



Teckos Pech wrote:
Orion Pax wrote:

It's pretty obvious that the net SP will be a loss. There's no question about that. However the average amount of SP a main toon will have will go up substantially. Overall everyone's main will have more SP and there will be a lot less toons with lesser amounts of SP.


No, I doubt this will be the outcome. I for example will not use it on my main (injecting that is). I won’t even use it on my oldest alt (who is about to break 100 million SP). Even my other alts are high enough SP and close enough to where I want them that the diminishing returns make the use of SP injectors the least preferred method of gaining SP.

In fact, some SP might be coming from main characters depending on the cost of SP extractors. For example, I might be able to scrounge enough SP On my main to justify buying maybe 1 SP extractor. Depending on the prices I might farm SP on an alt. But overall the market could be surprisingly thin. Depends on the price of an extractor. For example, my guess is that the long run price of a SP injector will be bounded below by about 1/3 the price of PLEX. If I can sell my SP injectors from a farming alt to cover the cost of a PLEX and the extractors I'll probably farm SP. If not, harder to say.

As for your car example, I’d go back to the dealership and invoke the clause where I essentially cancel the sale and get my money back less a restocking fee. Then off I’d go in my newly won car with all that money I earned to have a good time! Big smile


There are always exceptions, however I'm talking about overall in general and long term effects on the game. Injectors will become common place given time. Back in the old days, Titans didn't even exist. Now, they're quite common.



Tyberius Franklin wrote:

I'm not sure how this analogy really works in parallel to the change. Mainly due to the fact that training is a different mechanic than saving money (the former is an inevitability while the latter involves either decreasing spending or increasing earning continuously till the goal is met) and the injector mechanic is even less relatable to a raffle.

If anything it's actually the injector mechanic which most resembles saving/working for the car actively (the value of research is the same either way), but I doubt such a relation was your intention.


The analogy's meaning is about "hard earned" vs "easily earned". The SP injection system makes it easier to gain SP, so there's a loss in value because now you can buy it with money. You don't have to earn it through patience and perseverance. It's less "rare", so it's worth less.
stg slate
State War Academy
Caldari State
#149 - 2016-02-04 13:31:08 UTC
Orion Pax wrote:
The analogy's meaning is about "hard earned" vs "easily earned". The SP injection system makes it easier to gain SP, so there's a loss in value because now you can buy it with money. You don't have to earn it through patience and perseverance. It's less "rare", so it's worth less.


Hard earned SP? What the hell are you talking about? Currently I can log in once every 180 days and earn SP. That isn't perseverance.

Even when I take a break from EVE i set 6 months of skill in my queue so I come back to fresh progress.

Its only about money, either way, which comes from patience to grind out ISK or patience to pick up a few hours overtime.

There isn't some 'walk uphill both ways through the snow' for SP bullshit story, you currently get SP for ABSOLUTELY NOTHING aside from paying CCP.
Orion Pax
Yoyodyne corporation
#150 - 2016-02-04 14:38:17 UTC
stg slate wrote:

Hard earned SP? What the hell are you talking about? Currently I can log in once every 180 days and earn SP. That isn't perseverance.

Even when I take a break from EVE i set 6 months of skill in my queue so I come back to fresh progress.

Its only about money, either way, which comes from patience to grind out ISK or patience to pick up a few hours overtime.

There isn't some 'walk uphill both ways through the snow' for SP bullshit story, you currently get SP for ABSOLUTELY NOTHING aside from paying CCP.



Well, we're making it even easier to obtain SP now. Just take out your credit card, and buy 80 million SP.
stg slate
State War Academy
Caldari State
#151 - 2016-02-04 14:50:19 UTC
Orion Pax wrote:
stg slate wrote:

Hard earned SP? What the hell are you talking about? Currently I can log in once every 180 days and earn SP. That isn't perseverance.

Even when I take a break from EVE i set 6 months of skill in my queue so I come back to fresh progress.

Its only about money, either way, which comes from patience to grind out ISK or patience to pick up a few hours overtime.

There isn't some 'walk uphill both ways through the snow' for SP bullshit story, you currently get SP for ABSOLUTELY NOTHING aside from paying CCP.



Well, we're making it even easier to obtain SP now. Just take out your credit card, and buy 80 million SP.


Not easier, just quicker. Same amount of effort spent.
Orion Pax
Yoyodyne corporation
#152 - 2016-02-04 15:02:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Orion Pax
stg slate wrote:


Well, we're making it even easier to obtain SP now. Just take out your credit card, and buy 80 million SP.

Not easier, just quicker. Same amount of effort spent.



Having patience and waiting is a lot of effort.

Older players didn't even have a 24 hour skill queue let alone a pretty much unlimited one like the one we have now. You logged in on time or you lost training.

Think about it, say you like a girl and she has a boyfriend but you wait for her because you know it's not going to work out. And say in this case the story has a happy ending and she ends up with you. Compare that to calling up an escort.

Which endeavor is worth more?
Lulu Lunette
Savage Moon Society
#153 - 2016-02-04 15:05:19 UTC
There's a few dumb skills on my horizon that I don't look forward to but with this new feature I can make Advanced Weapon Upgrades V go away? Awesome imo

@lunettelulu7
stg slate
State War Academy
Caldari State
#154 - 2016-02-04 15:08:03 UTC
Orion Pax wrote:
stg slate wrote:


Well, we're making it even easier to obtain SP now. Just take out your credit card, and buy 80 million SP.

Not easier, just quicker. Same amount of effort spent.



Having patience and waiting is a lot of effort.

Older players didn't even have a 24 hour skill queue let alone a pretty much unlimited one like the one we have now. You logged in on time or you lost training.

Think about it, say you like a girl and she has a boyfriend but you wait for her because you know it's not going to work out. And say in this case the story has a happy ending and she ends up with you. Compare that to calling up an escort.

Which endeavor is worth more?


I'm not a loser who would hang around waiting on someones sloppy seconds or call a prostitute.

Look, I understand you don't like the system, but it does come down to merely patience; I'm not sure that waiting around and trickling $15/month to CCP for 2 years is any better than paying $360 up front to them plus a premium to another player(who gets rewarded for his patience when he sells his SP).
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#155 - 2016-02-04 15:15:44 UTC
stg slate wrote:
Orion Pax wrote:
stg slate wrote:


Well, we're making it even easier to obtain SP now. Just take out your credit card, and buy 80 million SP.

Not easier, just quicker. Same amount of effort spent.



Having patience and waiting is a lot of effort.

Older players didn't even have a 24 hour skill queue let alone a pretty much unlimited one like the one we have now. You logged in on time or you lost training.

Think about it, say you like a girl and she has a boyfriend but you wait for her because you know it's not going to work out. And say in this case the story has a happy ending and she ends up with you. Compare that to calling up an escort.

Which endeavor is worth more?


I'm not a loser who would hang around waiting on someones sloppy seconds or call a prostitute.

Look, I understand you don't like the system, but it does come down to merely patience; I'm not sure that waiting around and trickling $15/month to CCP for 2 years is any better than paying $360 up front to them plus a premium to another player(who gets rewarded for his patience when he sells his SP).


It's not just about the money. The TIME is valuable. This new system streamlines a system that already existed with the Character bazaar, but the Character Bazaar was balanced by it's faults IMO. This new system is just more trying to cater to an instant gratificaiton crowd that is not and can never be compatible with EVE in the 1st place.

I say intended because with the exception of a few "whale" type new players, the only one's who will really benefit from all this are established players. So rather than help new folks, it will just widen the wealth and material gaps between old an new (ie new players get SP they don't know what to do with, while older players get isk they DO know what to do with).

CCP, I like to introduce you to my friend Malcanis. He has a law he like to talk to you about.
Orion Pax
Yoyodyne corporation
#156 - 2016-02-04 15:18:55 UTC
stg slate wrote:


I'm not a loser who would hang around waiting on someones sloppy seconds or call a prostitute.

Look, I understand you don't like the system, but it does come down to merely patience; I'm not sure that waiting around and trickling $15/month to CCP for 2 years is any better than paying $360 up front to them plus a premium to another player(who gets rewarded for his patience when he sells his SP).


I'm not saying you are. The analogy is to get my point across. I'm saying this change detracts from the Eve Online experience and CCP will most likely be losing subs due to this change. Sure, in the short term they'll have a quick boost in sales but it's going to hurt the game in the long term.
stg slate
State War Academy
Caldari State
#157 - 2016-02-04 15:22:37 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
This new system is just more trying to cater to an instant gratificaiton crowd that is not and can never be compatible with EVE in the 1st place.


Why not? All feelings of elitism cast aside you must realize that Eve with skill injectors will be very compatible with that sort of player. Skill training was the big barrier, and with this it will be swept away.

People will play and be getting skills for it, basically leveling their Ravens in high sec.

And those people will basically have 0 impact on most players's day to day. High-sec is already full of players murdering NPCs and not interacting with anyone.
stg slate
State War Academy
Caldari State
#158 - 2016-02-04 15:27:39 UTC
Orion Pax wrote:
...this change detracts from the Eve Online experience...


What sort of 'Eve is Real', space bushido nonsense is this?

The Eve Online Expereince®?

You shoot stuff in a spaceship and try to get better at shooting stuff. Or build stuff/mine stuff. And chat with friends. And try not to die.

EVE isn't a lifestyle choice, its a hobby.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#159 - 2016-02-04 15:39:15 UTC
stg slate wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
This new system is just more trying to cater to an instant gratificaiton crowd that is not and can never be compatible with EVE in the 1st place.


Why not? All feelings of elitism cast aside you must realize that Eve with skill injectors will be very compatible with that sort of player. Skill training was the big barrier, and with this it will be swept away.

People will play and be getting skills for it, basically leveling their Ravens in high sec.



The new player that injects skills will think they can do things they can't. Not only will they suffer for this (when they lose that triple tanked laser raven in a lvl 4 mission they should have never been in in the first place), but they are going to be even easier prey for gankers.


Quote:
And those people will basically have 0 impact on most players's day to day. High-sec is already full of players murdering NPCs and not interacting with anyone.


SP trading is easier than using the character bazaar. So more people will do it. That means more people shooting those NPCs (ie a new player going from scratch to lvl 4 raven goes from 1 or 2 months to 1 or 2 days), lowering the rewards for everyone else shooting those NPCs. That's what happens when more people shoot the same NPCs, that's why Guristas loot is so cheap now.

You want to lose stawlart PVE players? Make their rewards go down while you pursue 'new players' lol.


Now, this next thing I say is not directed at you only. I just don't get how people in general can be so naive. It's like back in 2009 when people said "Dominion Sov in null sec will be great because it will break up the big coalitions and let the little guy get a foot hold in null". Some of us said it wouldn't, it would just make the rich richer and the big bigger, and naive people looked at us like we were bonkers. The funny thing here is that the people who were celebrating that change ended up being the ones most hurt by it.

Same thing here really. This great SP trading change people are celebrating about is going to screw people, but mainly the people who are celebrating it.
Orion Pax
Yoyodyne corporation
#160 - 2016-02-04 15:43:59 UTC
stg slate wrote:


What sort of 'Eve is Real', space bushido nonsense is this?

The Eve Online Expereince®?

You shoot stuff in a spaceship and try to get better at shooting stuff. Or build stuff/mine stuff. And chat with friends. And try not to die.

EVE isn't a lifestyle choice, its a hobby.



I tend to have an appreciation for my hobbies and savor the moments with time spent. Like when you build a car in a garage, or do excellent wood work in the shop. It's very different from just going out and buying the car or buying a wooden chest. The moments and how they are spent matters.