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AFK Cloaking™: Ideas, Discussion, and Proposals

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Cidanel Afuran
Grant Village
#5641 - 2016-02-01 17:58:23 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
I have answered many times.

Yes, I have lived in every area of space. Yes, I have participated in defense fleets. Most boring thing in the history of ever. It was a large contributing factor to my leaving, as they consumed all of my available playtime and saw very little of any sort of interesting play.

Do you in fact have a point? What does it have to do with anything.

The problem with cloaks is present in every area of space, not just null.


The point? There are already counters to cloaks, and you're choosing not to use them.

How are standing fleets boring? You just stay in a fleet and rat/mine/do industry/whatever like you would anyway. If someone in your fleet gets dropped, they yell on comms and everyone takes 10 seconds to reship to combat and takes down the baddies.

Mike, it sounds like you simply don't like null. There's nothing wrong with that, but yes, defending your space when you're choosing to own a part of space WILL take a lot of your time. That's the tradeoff for actually living somewhere where you have to own space.

There is nothing wrong with the game's mechanics. You just seem to not like the effort and coordination it takes to live outside of HS.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#5642 - 2016-02-01 18:10:04 UTC
There is a great deal wrong with cloaks.

But it's not just a problem in Null. The thread happens to be about one particular excess in how they get used, but it's just a symptom of the problem.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#5643 - 2016-02-01 19:12:59 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
There is a great deal wrong with cloaks.


So far, you've failed to prove that there is anything whatsoever wrong with cloaks, you've just repeatedly expressed that your personal dislike of them should result in them being completely gutted as a mechanic.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Cidanel Afuran
Grant Village
#5644 - 2016-02-01 19:33:28 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
There is a great deal wrong with cloaks.

But it's not just a problem in Null. The thread happens to be about one particular excess in how they get used, but it's just a symptom of the problem.


Yes this discussion is only about null.

HS: No one complains about cloak usage in HS. In HS you assume you will be ganked at any time if you fly bling anyway, regardless of who else is in system with you.

LS: If you/your friends aren't the only ones in system, you assume someone is trying to hunt you anyway. By and large (other than exploration and the occasional burner) PvE doesn't really happen in LS

WH: You won't find a single wormholer complaining about cloaks.

Nullseccers are literally the only ones who have problems with cloaks, and that's because they want the benefit of living in and owning dangerous space without the effort it takes to defend it.
Poranius Fisc
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5645 - 2016-02-01 22:03:41 UTC
Cidanel Afuran wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
There is a great deal wrong with cloaks.

But it's not just a problem in Null. The thread happens to be about one particular excess in how they get used, but it's just a symptom of the problem.


Yes this discussion is only about null.

HS: No one complains about cloak usage in HS. In HS you assume you will be ganked at any time if you fly bling anyway, regardless of who else is in system with you.

LS: If you/your friends aren't the only ones in system, you assume someone is trying to hunt you anyway. By and large (other than exploration and the occasional burner) PvE doesn't really happen in LS

WH: You won't find a single wormholer complaining about cloaks.

Nullseccers are literally the only ones who have problems with cloaks, and that's because they want the benefit of living in and owning dangerous space without the effort it takes to defend it.


The issue is that there is no real counter to cloaks. Anyone can cloak in low sec or null or in WH space(high sec the point is kind of moot except in war decs) with impunity. Or maybe it's not an issue.. depending on ow you look at it.

Basicly (and it's been done), you can cloak up and wait. pick a system in null. cloak up and wait. monitor traffic in and out. monitor daily activity. maybe your starting to chat with the locals. all your looking for is that big score for the killboards.

You don't have to threaten their sov, so its not really about attacking / defending sov. what you have here, is an opportunity to hunt and wait for a target without any impunity. There is no counter. It's all about how patient you are ( and maybe your friends that might be waiting for a covert cyno).

And the best part, you don't even have to do anything for that day! you can dedicate an alt to this! your in place with a covert cloak. you can jump around and just let it sit. maybe you'll loose connection, maybe not. doesn't matter unless you drop your covert cloak. They really can't hunt you. Maybe they set up a trap.. but most are easy to see. you just have to sit and wait for the kill.

Maybe it's in a J space, but if your hunting and the hole closes, you can just probe down the new hole when it spawns. same thing. there is no counter. Only in J - space, you dont know if anyone else is there or not unless you pick them up on DSCAN or with probes.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#5646 - 2016-02-02 00:44:25 UTC
Poranius Fisc wrote:
Cidanel Afuran wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
There is a great deal wrong with cloaks.

But it's not just a problem in Null. The thread happens to be about one particular excess in how they get used, but it's just a symptom of the problem.


Yes this discussion is only about null.

HS: No one complains about cloak usage in HS. In HS you assume you will be ganked at any time if you fly bling anyway, regardless of who else is in system with you.

LS: If you/your friends aren't the only ones in system, you assume someone is trying to hunt you anyway. By and large (other than exploration and the occasional burner) PvE doesn't really happen in LS

WH: You won't find a single wormholer complaining about cloaks.

Nullseccers are literally the only ones who have problems with cloaks, and that's because they want the benefit of living in and owning dangerous space without the effort it takes to defend it.


The issue is that there is no real counter to cloaks. Anyone can cloak in low sec or null or in WH space(high sec the point is kind of moot except in war decs) with impunity. Or maybe it's not an issue.. depending on ow you look at it.

Basicly (and it's been done), you can cloak up and wait. pick a system in null. cloak up and wait. monitor traffic in and out. monitor daily activity. maybe your starting to chat with the locals. all your looking for is that big score for the killboards.

You don't have to threaten their sov, so its not really about attacking / defending sov. what you have here, is an opportunity to hunt and wait for a target without any impunity. There is no counter. It's all about how patient you are ( and maybe your friends that might be waiting for a covert cyno).

And the best part, you don't even have to do anything for that day! you can dedicate an alt to this! your in place with a covert cloak. you can jump around and just let it sit. maybe you'll loose connection, maybe not. doesn't matter unless you drop your covert cloak. They really can't hunt you. Maybe they set up a trap.. but most are easy to see. you just have to sit and wait for the kill.

Maybe it's in a J space, but if your hunting and the hole closes, you can just probe down the new hole when it spawns. same thing. there is no counter. Only in J - space, you dont know if anyone else is there or not unless you pick them up on DSCAN or with probes.


Counters have been given repeatedly in this thread.

Move over a system.
Use a standing fleet while ratting with multiple people in the same system.
Rat in fleet together with PvP oriented fits, 6 or 7 PvP fit ishtars will burn down sanctums pretty quick and anyone decloaks the 2,400-3,000 DPS will make it a short problem.
Figure out if he is actually AFK or not or at least get a pretty good idea.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Cidanel Afuran
Grant Village
#5647 - 2016-02-02 00:54:25 UTC
Poranius Fisc wrote:
The issue is that there is no real counter to cloaks. Anyone can cloak in low sec or null or in WH space(high sec the point is kind of moot except in war decs) with impunity. Or maybe it's not an issue.. depending on ow you look at it.

Basicly (and it's been done), you can cloak up and wait. pick a system in null. cloak up and wait. monitor traffic in and out. monitor daily activity. maybe your starting to chat with the locals. all your looking for is that big score for the killboards.

You don't have to threaten their sov, so its not really about attacking / defending sov. what you have here, is an opportunity to hunt and wait for a target without any impunity. There is no counter. It's all about how patient you are ( and maybe your friends that might be waiting for a covert cyno).

And the best part, you don't even have to do anything for that day! you can dedicate an alt to this! your in place with a covert cloak. you can jump around and just let it sit. maybe you'll loose connection, maybe not. doesn't matter unless you drop your covert cloak. They really can't hunt you. Maybe they set up a trap.. but most are easy to see. you just have to sit and wait for the kill.

Maybe it's in a J space, but if your hunting and the hole closes, you can just probe down the new hole when it spawns. same thing. there is no counter. Only in J - space, you dont know if anyone else is there or not unless you pick them up on DSCAN or with probes.


If you're outside of HS and aren't in a standing defense fleet that can protect your PvE-ing from anything a cloaked ship can bring, you have no business being outside HS.

Let's say you get hot dropped in your makanaw, great! I would trade a mack kill for kills of a blops gang any day. You are in that standing fleet, right?
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#5648 - 2016-02-02 08:28:30 UTC
Cidanel Afuran wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
There is a great deal wrong with cloaks.

But it's not just a problem in Null. The thread happens to be about one particular excess in how they get used, but it's just a symptom of the problem.


Yes this discussion is only about null.

HS: No one complains about cloak usage in HS. In HS you assume you will be ganked at any time if you fly bling anyway, regardless of who else is in system with you.

LS: If you/your friends aren't the only ones in system, you assume someone is trying to hunt you anyway. By and large (other than exploration and the occasional burner) PvE doesn't really happen in LS

WH: You won't find a single wormholer complaining about cloaks.

Nullseccers are literally the only ones who have problems with cloaks, and that's because they want the benefit of living in and owning dangerous space without the effort it takes to defend it.



One minor correction - a good whack of PvE actually happens in lowsec, just not many people seem to know about it. Plus there's a bunch of people rocking FW missions, or there were. I've not been close to that for years.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#5649 - 2016-02-02 15:44:16 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Poranius Fisc wrote:
Cidanel Afuran wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
There is a great deal wrong with cloaks.

But it's not just a problem in Null. The thread happens to be about one particular excess in how they get used, but it's just a symptom of the problem.


Yes this discussion is only about null.

HS: No one complains about cloak usage in HS. In HS you assume you will be ganked at any time if you fly bling anyway, regardless of who else is in system with you.

LS: If you/your friends aren't the only ones in system, you assume someone is trying to hunt you anyway. By and large (other than exploration and the occasional burner) PvE doesn't really happen in LS

WH: You won't find a single wormholer complaining about cloaks.

Nullseccers are literally the only ones who have problems with cloaks, and that's because they want the benefit of living in and owning dangerous space without the effort it takes to defend it.


The issue is that there is no real counter to cloaks. Anyone can cloak in low sec or null or in WH space(high sec the point is kind of moot except in war decs) with impunity. Or maybe it's not an issue.. depending on ow you look at it.

Basicly (and it's been done), you can cloak up and wait. pick a system in null. cloak up and wait. monitor traffic in and out. monitor daily activity. maybe your starting to chat with the locals. all your looking for is that big score for the killboards.

You don't have to threaten their sov, so its not really about attacking / defending sov. what you have here, is an opportunity to hunt and wait for a target without any impunity. There is no counter. It's all about how patient you are ( and maybe your friends that might be waiting for a covert cyno).

And the best part, you don't even have to do anything for that day! you can dedicate an alt to this! your in place with a covert cloak. you can jump around and just let it sit. maybe you'll loose connection, maybe not. doesn't matter unless you drop your covert cloak. They really can't hunt you. Maybe they set up a trap.. but most are easy to see. you just have to sit and wait for the kill.

Maybe it's in a J space, but if your hunting and the hole closes, you can just probe down the new hole when it spawns. same thing. there is no counter. Only in J - space, you dont know if anyone else is there or not unless you pick them up on DSCAN or with probes.


Counters have been given repeatedly in this thread.

Move over a system.
Use a standing fleet while ratting with multiple people in the same system.
Rat in fleet together with PvP oriented fits, 6 or 7 PvP fit ishtars will burn down sanctums pretty quick and anyone decloaks the 2,400-3,000 DPS will make it a short problem.
Figure out if he is actually AFK or not or at least get a pretty good idea.



None of that is a counter. It does absolutely jack all to a cloak unless he decides to turn off his cloak, in which case he isn't cloaked anymore.
Cidanel Afuran
Grant Village
#5650 - 2016-02-02 15:46:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Cidanel Afuran
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
One minor correction - a good whack of PvE actually happens in lowsec, just not many people seem to know about it. Plus there's a bunch of people rocking FW missions, or there were. I've not been close to that for years.


Thanks for the correction, admittedly LS is the only part of space I have never lived in for any length of time, so I will defer to someone who knows it more than I do. I was in a hole with a LS static for a while, so most of my experience came from what I observed through that.

Mike Voidstar wrote:
None of that is a counter. It does absolutely jack all to a cloak unless he decides to turn off his cloak, in which case he isn't cloaked anymore.


How many people have dealt you damage or made ISK with an active cloak, to the best of your memory?
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#5651 - 2016-02-02 18:32:08 UTC
There is more going on than just DPS.

Suppose I don't want him knowing who is in system, so I decide he needs removed? Oh, right... Cant even try. Suppose I just want to hunt, but don't want to travel.... Hey, valid non-allied target right in system! Oh wait... Can't even try.

Even Karrous's dig about no one being on gate when he got in... So somehow every gate and wormhole in space needs a hellcamp 23.5/7 to keep people from taking up residence in space I have decided to defend, no going to bed for me and everyone I know.

It does not matter what part of space you are in... Cloaks are too safe for what they allow. Adjustment from one side or the other is warranted. That they are the way they are is no excuse to leave them that way.

It does not need to be easy, but if they are to be left with any usefulness in space in any fashion at all, then they need a method of being actively hunted- or just make them have equivalent utility to being in a station except capable of navigation. If they want to gather Intel beyond local or launch invasions through a cyno or anything else, let them decloak and endure the target delay.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#5652 - 2016-02-02 18:46:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
Mike Voidstar wrote:

Even Karrous's dig about no one being on gate when he got in... So somehow every gate and wormhole in space needs a hellcamp 23.5/7 to keep people from taking up residence in space I have decided to defend, no going to bed for me and everyone I know.


So you're admitting that because you think you can't defend your space, you don't try.

Makes sense, given what I know of you. I'd be surprised if you even bother to bubble your gates. You just let somebody in, then cry that they're allowed to be there. Which definitely fits your posting.

So anyway, that isn't what I was saying, but I was suggesting that wormhole players make this work not only with randomly appearing gates, but also no local.

So in essence, you just suck. And you're trying to have the game mechanics changed to cover your extreme suckage.

Quote:

It does not matter what part of space you are in... Cloaks are too safe for what they allow.


They allow movement and d-scan, and disallow activation of any module.

That's perfectly balanced.


Quote:

That they are the way they are is no excuse to leave them that way.


Conversely, your cacophony of self absorbed lies is no reason to change one single about cloaks.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Cidanel Afuran
Grant Village
#5653 - 2016-02-02 18:56:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Cidanel Afuran
Mike Voidstar wrote:
There is more going on than just DPS.

Suppose I don't want him knowing who is in system, so I decide he needs removed? Oh, right... Cant even try. Suppose I just want to hunt, but don't want to travel.... Hey, valid non-allied target right in system! Oh wait... Can't even try.

Even Karrous's dig about no one being on gate when he got in... So somehow every gate and wormhole in space needs a hellcamp 23.5/7 to keep people from taking up residence in space I have decided to defend, no going to bed for me and everyone I know.

It does not matter what part of space you are in... Cloaks are too safe for what they allow. Adjustment from one side or the other is warranted. That they are the way they are is no excuse to leave them that way.

It does not need to be easy, but if they are to be left with any usefulness in space in any fashion at all, then they need a method of being actively hunted- or just make them have equivalent utility to being in a station except capable of navigation. If they want to gather Intel beyond local or launch invasions through a cyno or anything else, let them decloak and endure the target delay.


Mike, one more time, you keep mentioning the insanity of giving them equal access as in a station. If that's the case, you would logically want to let them refit/reship/change clones/etc. like you can in a station. Or are you being hypocritical?

That you won't put the effort in to deal with cloaked ships using current, existing mechanics is no excuse to change them. Please just admit already that all you want to do is be able to PvE in the most dangerous parts of space with zero risk. Everyone knows that's what you're going for.

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
So anyway, that isn't what I was saying, but I was suggesting that wormhole players make this work not only with randomly appearing gates, but also no local.


I'm by no stretch of the imagination an elite player. I'm solidly average. That being said, living in WH space I have lost exactly zero ships (in non-looking for battles/committing the field, PvP-ing) in over four months. Maybe some of us use the existing mechanics?
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#5654 - 2016-02-02 19:17:21 UTC
Cidanel Afuran wrote:

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
So anyway, that isn't what I was saying, but I was suggesting that wormhole players make this work not only with randomly appearing gates, but also no local.


I'm by no stretch of the imagination an elite player. I'm solidly average. That being said, living in WH space I have lost exactly zero ships (in non-looking for battles/committing the field, PvP-ing) in over four months. Maybe some of us use the existing mechanics?


See, now consider that Mike has spent weeks and weeks pouring out tears in this thread.

Then imagine just how much he must suck at EVE Online to need a safety blanket like he's been asking for. You know, the several pages where he was petulantly claiming that cloaked players should have their screen turn black and be cut off from the game as a whole?

Butthurt like that only comes from inability to accept risk and inability to deal with loss.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#5655 - 2016-02-02 19:32:28 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:


Even Karrous's dig about no one being on gate when he got in... So somehow every gate and wormhole in space needs a hellcamp 23.5/7 to keep people from taking up residence in space I have decided to defend, no going to bed for me and everyone I know.


No Mike, what he is saying is that unless you are going to take such heroic efforts people are going to come into your space. And it is designed this way on purpose. So either you accept that....or maybe consider another game, or at the very least relocate to HS.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#5656 - 2016-02-02 20:36:58 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:


Even Karrous's dig about no one being on gate when he got in... So somehow every gate and wormhole in space needs a hellcamp 23.5/7 to keep people from taking up residence in space I have decided to defend, no going to bed for me and everyone I know.


No Mike, what he is saying is that unless you are going to take such heroic efforts people are going to come into your space. And it is designed this way on purpose. So either you accept that....or maybe consider another game, or at the very least relocate to HS.


A wild Real Player appeared!

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Thorian Baalnorn
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5657 - 2016-02-03 01:16:39 UTC
If you live in high sec, cloaks do not matter. If you live anywhere else, you accept the risks of where you live. If you want to rat in your carrier or some blinged out multibillion isk ship and are afraid of the cloaky in system thats to bad. Welcome to eve, here is your ibis and tritanium, good luck.


You accept the risks with the rewards of null. You dont get the rewards without the risk. Some days those risk are higher than others. You just learn to work around them.

If the cloaky is gathering intel big deal. If he is killing pvers then bait him.

Sometimes you are the squirrel and sometimes you are the nut. Today, you are the nut and the squirrel is hungry.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#5658 - 2016-02-03 01:48:31 UTC
Thorian Baalnorn wrote:
If you live in high sec, cloaks do not matter. If you live anywhere else, you accept the risks of where you live. If you want to rat in your carrier or some blinged out multibillion isk ship and are afraid of the cloaky in system thats to bad. Welcome to eve, here is your ibis and tritanium, good luck.


You accept the risks with the rewards of null. You dont get the rewards without the risk. Some days those risk are higher than others. You just learn to work around them.

If the cloaky is gathering intel big deal. If he is killing pvers then bait him.


Intel may not matter to you, and Teckos has already said that intel has no value in game at all-- amusingly invalidating the existence of entire lines of ships.

There are those to whom it does matter, and it's a valid stance if they decide it's important to them because sandbox.

You guys still want to try and say that this is only important if you are in Null because of the specific use cloaks are put to there. It's important everywhere. It does not matter why you want to hunt the ship that is there to hunt you, it should be an option.

Yes, you can do things to reduce the risk projected by a cloaked ship---that's not a counter to the ship being there, that's just limiting his options. He can wait forever if he wants precisely because he has no counter.

It's really simple. If the cloak is going to provide a level of safety equivalent or higher than a station, then the ship should be similarly limited. Asking for refits and stuff is fine if you want to also allow people to know exactly where you are while you do it. Cloaks instead allow mobility.

Twist and turn it all you want. AFK cloaking is just a symptom of a bigger problem with 100% safety of an active cloak intelligently flown.
Thorian Baalnorn
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5659 - 2016-02-03 04:25:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Thorian Baalnorn
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Thorian Baalnorn wrote:
If you live in high sec, cloaks do not matter. If you live anywhere else, you accept the risks of where you live. If you want to rat in your carrier or some blinged out multibillion isk ship and are afraid of the cloaky in system thats to bad. Welcome to eve, here is your ibis and tritanium, good luck.


You accept the risks with the rewards of null. You dont get the rewards without the risk. Some days those risk are higher than others. You just learn to work around them.

If the cloaky is gathering intel big deal. If he is killing pvers then bait him.


Intel may not matter to you, and Teckos has already said that intel has no value in game at all-- amusingly invalidating the existence of entire lines of ships.

There are those to whom it does matter, and it's a valid stance if they decide it's important to them because sandbox.

You guys still want to try and say that this is only important if you are in Null because of the specific use cloaks are put to there. It's important everywhere. It does not matter why you want to hunt the ship that is there to hunt you, it should be an option.

Yes, you can do things to reduce the risk projected by a cloaked ship---that's not a counter to the ship being there, that's just limiting his options. He can wait forever if he wants precisely because he has no counter.

It's really simple. If the cloak is going to provide a level of safety equivalent or higher than a station, then the ship should be similarly limited. Asking for refits and stuff is fine if you want to also allow people to know exactly where you are while you do it. Cloaks instead allow mobility.

Twist and turn it all you want. AFK cloaking is just a symptom of a bigger problem with 100% safety of an active cloak intelligently flown.


Suck it up. A minority has been complaining about cloaks for years and for years, CCP hasnt changed it. And that will likely never change. Why? Well because a very small minority complain about cloaks. A vast majority use them to their benefit. Changing cloaks to appease a very small portion of the player base and pissing off a very large portion of the player base, just wont happen ever.

Cloaks are simply to useful for a variety of things. Many ships are built around covert cloaks and they are balanced. They sacrifice some of their abilities for the ability to stay fully cloaked all the time... IE: Learn about the difference between force and combat recons. The whole explorer line of cloaked ships, the covert versions of transports, etc.

Cloaks arent going to be changed because while a few are bitching about them everyone else is using them as a tool for whatever they may need them for.

You shouldnt be able to hunt everything that is hunting you, you shouldnt be able to kill everything that is trying to kill you.

Sometimes you are the squirrel and sometimes you are the nut. Well today.... you are the nut and the squirrel is hungry.

Sometimes you are the squirrel and sometimes you are the nut. Today, you are the nut and the squirrel is hungry.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#5660 - 2016-02-03 05:01:13 UTC
If you want to play the numbers game on this you will certainly lose. PvP in total is a minority activity in game, according to ccp's own data.

What is getting sucked up is the devs stance that since its used to harass PvE players and slow ISK making in null then the imbalance is worth it.

That does not mean no problem exists. It does not mean a change isn't warranted. It certainly does not mean that those who are using cloaks to camp targets in perfect safety are any kind of majority.