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Will Buying Skill Points Ruin The Game?

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xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers
#81 - 2016-01-31 08:56:29 UTC
Daniela Doran wrote:

This is game is gonna be dead in the water 12-18 months from now and I still have 6 months game time left, so.....might as well have some fun in that time.


wrong and right in one sentence.

EVE is Dying Soon™ --- Nope, wrong on so many levels.

might as well have some fun in that time. --- Yes, now you have the idea, have some fun, nothing lasts forever so why spend the time you have worrying about something that's going to happen one day anyway?

this whole predict the day EVE dies thing is pretty lame and so on par with moon hoax, flat earth, big foot is real, an asteroid is going to hit us bullshite.

give it a rest and go play the fecking game.
Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#82 - 2016-01-31 09:42:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Daniela Doran
Nat Silverguard wrote:
Daniela Doran wrote:
I'm finally getting to the point where I don't care anymore. But I might as well try to play this insta-leveling game since I still have a decent about of playtime left.

There appears to be a lot of scrubs in Eve who relish this pay2win mechanic so it's kinda hard to predict whether this feature will ruin CCPs income or not (at least in the short term), but it will definitely ruin the game.

The realness of Eve has vanish and appears to be nothing more than a fake replica of it's former self. It's only a matter of time before the scrubs discover how to take full advantage of this feature and turn this farce of a game into World of Spaceships. If CCP goals were to turn this game into a space PVP game only then they have succeeded.

Now the question is just how long can a PVP only insta-gratifying Eve last? My predictions is that it will hit an all time high come this summer and when everything settles down it will hit rock bottom within 6-12 months after. So overall I predict the remaining lifespan of Eve to be between 12-18 more months.

Legit question, what do you mean pay2win, can you explain/elaborate what you mean? can you give a specific example of a pay2win scenario in EvE? ty in advance.
I'm trying to figure out your reasonings for asking this question? Like do you really not know? Or are trying to convince me that this feature isn't pay2win, which in this case is a waste of time.

Anytime a game provides a feature that allows your char to advanced in skill or abilities by bypassing in-game mechanics in exchange for currency is what is called "pay2win".

In Eve the most valuable commodities are:
1) SP (because it can only be accumulated through "time")
2) PS (Player Skill that allows you to use your SP to it's fullest potential)
3) ISK ( in game currency, needed to buy the ships, supplies and shiny trinkets)

As you can see here, SP is the most valuable commodity in Eve because whether people realize it or not, Time is the one thing that cannot be bought in RL which makes it the most precious thing a person can have in his/her lifetime. What made Eve special was that it incorporated a powerful RL commodity as "Time" and made it a central part of the game's core mechanic that allows the players in it to evolve in the same way we all do as people in real time. And now that precious commodity is up for sale in exchange for the mighty buck.

The people who cannot see the problem with this SP trading are the people that don't know the true value of "Time" and take it for granted. For CCP it's sheer greed.

Edit: After the SP trading goes lives the most valuable commodities in Eve would be:
1) Visa, Master Card, American Express, Discover
2) PS
3) ISK


you really can't answer my question can you, especially the part when i asked a specific scenario sample? Smile

all you ever did was label this feature as pay2win but im afraid you yourself don't understand the term. there's definitely a "pay" involved, but where's the "win" part?

my point is to establish your definition of "winning". and how is having more SP = winning and therefore able to pay for SP is pay2win. if you believe that having more SP = winning then so be it, but not all of us are that dumb, sorry. Lol
It's called pay2advance, you satisfied?? It still breaks the game for people who can see the problem. For those who can't then that's their problem.

see, this is the issue, this is not your typical theme park game wherein having more XP is an advantage. it is not and never will be. again, give me a specific scenario wherein a SPed newbro will gain an advantage over you, be it PvP or PvE, just 1 example, please, i beg you.

Sigh..

Okay I'll use PVP as an example since that's all the majority of players who are in favor of SP trading can comprehend.

Fact is even with your mighty PVP skills, if you don't have the proper fitting, tank, ships, utility and weapon support skills, you're not gonna win against a newbro who bought 30 mill SP to fly a max out Deimos. It regular takes 7-8 months to obtain such skills but the newbro bought his SP and obtaining same skills in 1-2 months. That's 5-6 months more time to fly and perfect the skills needed to fly that Deimos while the regular player is still training skills to fly the Thorax.

Noobs can now fly the latest ships in trend within 1 month like the HICs and T3Ds with max skills. Whereas before they had to train all the relevant skills by patiently waiting 6-12 months like everyone else did until now. I know what you're gonna say...SP don't equals actual piloting skills yada yada. But this is besides the point, even then a noob have much quicker access to top of line T2 ships that he can practice flying on SiSi and get those mighty skills that you PVP pros covet so much in no time.

Within 3-6 months, these noobs flying T2 and T3Cs would be at or around equal footing with you PVP pros in SP and PS whereas it took you regular vets 1+years to reach the same level.

Again I say people who don't know the value of time is oblivious to all reasons as to why this is a big problem.Roll
Lan Wang
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#83 - 2016-01-31 10:03:28 UTC
who cares about time really? concentrate on your time because you are wasting time concerning yourself with other peoples time

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Mr Mieyli
Doomheim
#84 - 2016-01-31 10:49:40 UTC
Daniela Doran wrote:
It regular takes 7-8 months to obtain such skills but the newbro bought his SP and obtaining same skills in 1-2 months.


This is one of the reasons SP buying bothers me. Newbros will no longer have the same feeling we all had when we were new, flying around in frigates going "wow look at all these massive ships, one day that will be me". Now there is no wait, there is no buildup, no hype for the next ship class or whatever skills you just bought. I can see people buying the SP they want, getting into their pimp t3 and then getting bored in a short time when they have nothing to look forward to character-progression-wise.

Literally the only thing about your character that will be his anymore will be his name. For the people who that is enough for, why not play CoD?

This post brought to you by CCP's alpha forum alt initiative. Playing the eve forums has never come cheaper.
Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#85 - 2016-01-31 10:54:54 UTC
Daniela Doran wrote:

Sigh..

Okay I'll use PVP as an example since that's all the majority of players who are in favor of SP trading can comprehend.

Fact is even with your mighty PVP skills, if you don't have the proper fitting, tank, ships, utility and weapon support skills, you're not gonna win against a newbro who bought 30 mill SP to fly a max out Deimos. It regular takes 7-8 months to obtain such skills but the newbro bought his SP and obtaining same skills in 1-2 months. That's 5-6 months more time to fly and perfect the skills needed to fly that Deimos while the regular player is still training skills to fly the Thorax.

Noobs can now fly the latest ships in trend within 1 month like the HICs and T3Ds with max skills. Whereas before they had to train all the relevant skills by patiently waiting 6-12 months like everyone else did until now. I know what you're gonna say...SP don't equals actual piloting skills yada yada. But this is besides the point, even then a noob have much quicker access to top of line T2 ships that he can practice flying on SiSi and get those mighty skills that you PVP pros covet so much in no time.

Within 3-6 months, these noobs flying T2 and T3Cs would be at or around equal footing with you PVP pros in SP and PS whereas it took you regular vets 1+years to reach the same level.

Again I say people who don't know the value of time is oblivious to all reasons as to why this is a big problem.Roll


this clearly shows how limited and shallow your logic is.

imagine a 2013 character just as yourself (assuming you're pvp pilot as well) who knows how tracking/sig radius/optimal range/fall-off works more than the newbro on the same ship/equal footing, are you telling me you won't be able to defeat him? do you think a newbro can defeat a veteran who can do amazing things like making a warpin against an off-grid moving fleet using dscan only? What?

now, if you have lower SP than him and he's in a better ship, why would you even engage him? one essential trait in solo pvp to have is to know your engagement profiles. if he wants to play with me then ill force him to fly a frigate and kill him then. on fleet, well his high SP doesn't really matter on a fleet fight, infact the shinier his ship is, the quicker he'll be primaried and die.

he can fly the trendiest ship or even a titan for all i care, the SPed bro, would either die quickly in a shiny ship or of boredom/blue balls because nobody would play with him. and after all that money spent, he'll come to realize that SP doesn't really matter and that bigger doesn't always means better. what matters are the experiences you have accumulated in your +1 yr of playing, like to cycle your ARRs, warp to accel gates at 10km and never 0, turn-off your mwd when you tackled your target, simple things like that.

Just Add Water
Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#86 - 2016-01-31 11:04:49 UTC
Mr Mieyli wrote:
Daniela Doran wrote:
It regular takes 7-8 months to obtain such skills but the newbro bought his SP and obtaining same skills in 1-2 months.


This is one of the reasons SP buying bothers me. Newbros will no longer have the same feeling we all had when we were new, flying around in frigates going "wow look at all these massive ships, one day that will be me". Now there is no wait, there is no buildup, no hype for the next ship class or whatever skills you just bought. I can see people buying the SP they want, getting into their pimp t3 and then getting bored in a short time when they have nothing to look forward to character-progression-wise.

Literally the only thing about your character that will be his anymore will be his name. For the people who that is enough for, why not play CoD?


if they left because of boredom then nothing of value was lost.

besides, 7-8 months is how much SP? around 8-10M? so at 500k per extractor that would mean 16 to 20 extractors. basing on the speculation thread, that's alot of money. now, im not saying there won't be anybody capable of buying 20 extractors in one go, but imho, it would be minimal and negligible, so majority of people are still gonna train.

Just Add Water
sero Hita
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#87 - 2016-01-31 11:22:56 UTC
Daniela Doran wrote:

Sigh..

Okay I'll use PVP as an example since that's all the majority of players who are in favor of SP trading can comprehend.

Fact is even with your mighty PVP skills, if you don't have the proper fitting, tank, ships, utility and weapon support skills, you're not gonna win against a newbro who bought 30 mill SP to fly a max out Deimos. It regular takes 7-8 months to obtain such skills but the newbro bought his SP and obtaining same skills in 1-2 months. That's 5-6 months more time to fly and perfect the skills needed to fly that Deimos while the regular player is still training skills to fly the Thorax.

Noobs can now fly the latest ships in trend within 1 month like the HICs and T3Ds with max skills. Whereas before they had to train all the relevant skills by patiently waiting 6-12 months like everyone else did until now. I know what you're gonna say...SP don't equals actual piloting skills yada yada. But this is besides the point, even then a noob have much quicker access to top of line T2 ships that he can practice flying on SiSi and get those mighty skills that you PVP pros covet so much in no time.

Within 3-6 months, these noobs flying T2 and T3Cs would be at or around equal footing with you PVP pros in SP and PS whereas it took you regular vets 1+years to reach the same level.

Again I say people who don't know the value of time is oblivious to all reasons as to why this is a big problem.Roll


Tbh. this is a weird argument. I don't see why the newbie who bought SP (Which will probably be pretty expensive) and gained player skillls superior to yours, should not be allowed to beat you? In your argument it sounds more like you are annoyed that newer players might be able to beat you, than the actual SP changes. This seems like more like an ego thing, than a problem with the implemented mechanism imo.

"I'm all for pvp, don't get me wrong. I've ganked in Empire, blobed in low sec. Got T-shirts from every which-where.. But to be forced into a pvp confrontation that I didn't want is wrong ccp." RealFlisker
Avvy
Doomheim
#88 - 2016-01-31 11:29:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Avvy
Daniela Doran wrote:

The people who cannot see the problem with this SP trading are the people that don't know the true value of "Time" and take it for granted. For CCP it's sheer greed.


The value of time, what is that exactly. It's very subjective.

Waiting for time to pass is actually quite boring. If that's what you are doing then the value isn't in time but in saving time.

CCP's sheer greed? Why deny them a means of making an increased income when other companies are now doing it, they are a business after all. It seems to be the way of the modern MMO. In GW2 when that was fairly new, I spent more than a years EVE subscription on their shop in less than 2 months.
Mr Mieyli
Doomheim
#89 - 2016-01-31 11:56:02 UTC
Avvy wrote:
Waiting for time to pass is actually quite boring. If that's what you are doing then the value isn't in time but in saving time.


Like you say it's subjective, I find the wait builds excitement for whatever it is I'm waiting for (within reason). If you aren't a fan of waiting then I have some bad news for you, EvE is a slow game. The joy is in the journey as it were.

The new players who would appreciate shortcuts like skill packets will still be massively annoyed by all the other time consuming activities in EvE. I can also see down the line, and I mean long term, that many pilots will end up with exactly the same set of min-maxed skills and I feel this is bad for the game.

This post brought to you by CCP's alpha forum alt initiative. Playing the eve forums has never come cheaper.
Avvy
Doomheim
#90 - 2016-01-31 12:19:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Avvy
Quote:
I don't know if they've agreed on this next point, but I think there should be a limit to the sp packets usefulness.



Thought it's worth expanding on this point.


It's important to have a maximum limit as it protects the long-term players achievements and a lot of those with high amounts of sp are proud of the fact that they do.

The point of sp trading is not to get ahead of someone on sp, although some might see it that way.

The point is to allow players to increase the sp to a point where it gives them more options and a more useful character, they will still have to learn to use the new skills.



Edit:

Well that didn't go right, meant to quote myself, instead I quoted a part of the original post but removed the rest. So the quote is to part of the post that was here.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#91 - 2016-01-31 13:15:09 UTC
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Which is exactly the same as any other P2W game.
No Lucas, it's not, but that's some nice bait.
It's not bait, it's a fact. P2W is never a payment for actual victory. I don't know of a single game where you pay real money and get a button that simply makes you win. What I do know of is many games with give you better gear and more resources which give you an advantage, neither of which will do you any good if you are terrible at the game. Further, a new player buying items will still often be behind non-paying veterans but ahead of people that start alongside them but don't pay. This is no different.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Avvy
Doomheim
#92 - 2016-01-31 13:25:51 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Which is exactly the same as any other P2W game.
No Lucas, it's not, but that's some nice bait.
It's not bait, it's a fact. P2W is never a payment for actual victory. I don't know of a single game where you pay real money and get a button that simply makes you win. What I do know of is many games with give you better gear and more resources which give you an advantage, neither of which will do you any good if you are terrible at the game. Further, a new player buying items will still often be behind non-paying veterans but ahead of people that start alongside them but don't pay. This is no different.



In reference to the underlined and bolded part.

This is from an earlier post of mine

Quote:

This is an extract from the Urban Dictionary

'Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items than everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced...'


Those examples you give are P2W, sp packets only save you time, they are an advantage but not P2W.
Arthur Hannigen
#93 - 2016-01-31 13:48:46 UTC
1. Urban Dictionary? Seriously?

2. Two players being equally the same in (age, skill, etc), you don't see how the one purchasing SP's will have a greater advantage over the one that doesn't?
Altair Taurus
#94 - 2016-01-31 13:54:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Altair Taurus
Let's face reality here - some old-timers are crying because they are narked at CCP wanting to earn some money and they hate new reality where new players can reach their SP level quite quickly. That's their own problem! EVE Online and players community will move forward regardless of stupid arguments presented by those haters. EVE Online won't be over in the next months. At best those haters will leave the game beaten-up in PvP by large numbers of SP boosted "scrubs". Anyway they can always try MOBA games. Bear
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#95 - 2016-01-31 13:59:40 UTC
Yes, as Arthur pointed out, urban dictionary is laughable. It's not exactly a quality source of information.

Avvy wrote:
Those examples you give are P2W, sp packets only save you time, they are an advantage but not P2W.
What game can you pay to win? Like literally win. So a game where I can pay some cash, and even if I'm completely terrible at the game and can't even figure out basic movement controls, I can win anyway from the "I win" button I bought.

P2W is always pay for advantage in reality. What that urban dictionary entry is talking about is different types of advantage, between buying something unique which you can only get for cash, vs paying to skip content and get something you can get for free but without waiting. Either way it's an advantage over someone that started in the same situation but didn't pay. Not that you claim my examples are P2W, so why is buying resources in a game P2W, but buying SP - which is a resource - isn't?

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#96 - 2016-01-31 14:04:16 UTC
Will trading SP ruin the game?

I don't know. I'm no longer convinced it will. But I'm certainly not convinced it won't.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#97 - 2016-01-31 14:05:38 UTC
Altair Taurus wrote:
Let's face reality here - some old-timers are crying because they are narked at CCP wanting to earn some money and they hate new reality where new players can reach their SP level quite quickly. That's their own problem! EVE Online and players community will move forward regardless of stupid arguments presented by those haters. EVE Online won't be over in the next months. At best those haters will leave the game beaten-up in PvP by large numbers of SP boosted "scrubs". Anyway they can always try MOBA games. Bear
I'm not crying at anything, I'm fully embracing the fact that CCP are chucking microtrans into the game like mad, I'm just not pretending it isn't what it is or trying to find ways to excuse it.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Avvy
Doomheim
#98 - 2016-01-31 14:07:50 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Yes, as Arthur pointed out, urban dictionary is laughable. It's not exactly a quality source of information.

Avvy wrote:
Those examples you give are P2W, sp packets only save you time, they are an advantage but not P2W.
What game can you pay to win? Like literally win. So a game where I can pay some cash, and even if I'm completely terrible at the game and can't even figure out basic movement controls, I can win anyway from the "I win" button I bought.

P2W is always pay for advantage in reality. What that urban dictionary entry is talking about is different types of advantage, between buying something unique which you can only get for cash, vs paying to skip content and get something you can get for free but without waiting. Either way it's an advantage over someone that started in the same situation but didn't pay. Not that you claim my examples are P2W, so why is buying resources in a game P2W, but buying SP - which is a resource - isn't?



If you look at it the way you are the game would already be P2W even without the addition of skill packets.
Lan Wang
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#99 - 2016-01-31 14:08:58 UTC
just think though.

Noob buys sp the possibilites are endless.

highsec: noobs can now be in a hulk or t2 mining ship so you mining corps can swindle more tax from players and make more money.
lowsec: more battleship pilots, t3, and ahac pilots.
nullsec: same as lowsec
sov: more monkey ratters and f1 pushers making sov more money from taxes and bigger blobs.

I dont see it as an issue it gives new players the chance to be more relevant in the game, allbeit they will die alot but it does make the game much more fun when you can actually fly main doctrine ships instead of ewar or frigates for months on end.

CCP are going to make a ton of money from this and it will only help the developmen of the game

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#100 - 2016-01-31 14:12:40 UTC
Avvy wrote:
If you look at it the way you are the game would already be P2W even without the addition of skill packets.
Indeed it is, this is just adding another aspect to that, making it "more P2W" if you will.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.