These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
Previous page123Next page
 

Adjust/remove Advanced Spaceship Command skill
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Xe'Cara'eos
A Big Enough Lever
#21 - 2016-01-30 11:28:22 UTC
my 0.02 ISK
use levels I-IV as pre-req's for either T2 ships, saaaay:
I is T2 frigs and desties
II is T2 cruiser and BC
III is T2 BS
IV is T3's (both the T3d's and the T3c's)
V is already useful (freighters)

because atm, since it only applies to ships 'that require this skill to fly' you can't use it until you've trained freighters or cap ships, which means you need to train it to V

For posting an idea into F&I: come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it..... If your idea can be abused, it [u]WILL[/u] be.
Heiluri
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2016-01-30 11:55:15 UTC
Xe'Cara'eos wrote:
my 0.02 ISK
use levels I-IV as pre-req's for either T2 ships, saaaay:
I is T2 frigs and desties
II is T2 cruiser and BC
III is T2 BS
IV is T3's (both the T3d's and the T3c's)
V is already useful (freighters)

because atm, since it only applies to ships 'that require this skill to fly' you can't use it until you've trained freighters or cap ships, which means you need to train it to V


Do we really want to give all those ships 25% agility bonus though?(Which they would get since that skill would be required to fly them)
Masao Kurata
Perkone
Caldari State
#23 - 2016-01-30 14:55:16 UTC
Heiluri wrote:
Do we really want to give all those ships 25% agility bonus though?(Which they would get since that skill would be required to fly them)


I think you mean "do we really want to give all those ships a 20% penalty to their base agility?" (The answer imo is hell no.)
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#24 - 2016-01-30 16:04:42 UTC
Ooor we could accept that certain stupid powerful hulls are behind an SP wall for a reason.
Masao Kurata
Perkone
Caldari State
#25 - 2016-01-30 17:43:36 UTC
If they're stupid powerful they need to be nerfed, SP walls don't solve things.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#26 - 2016-01-30 18:41:08 UTC
Question why is the intended time sink an issue?

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#27 - 2016-01-30 18:45:18 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Question why is the intended time sink an issue?



Because I want it NAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAO.WWWWW

Just look at the bitching about command ships.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#28 - 2016-01-30 18:54:26 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Question why is the intended time sink an issue?



Because I want it NAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAO.WWWWW

Just look at the bitching about command ships.


I'm waiting for graviton physics to come under fire for dics and hics

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#29 - 2016-01-30 19:19:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Nevyn Auscent
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:

I'm waiting for graviton physics to come under fire for dics and hics

You only need it to 1 for DIC's last I looked at things, and only need it to 4 for HIC's as the 'advanced' version. So Graviton Physics follows the 'V is specialisation but not required for basic use' system just fine.
The issue here is not the time sink in general, but the fact that a skill is being forced to V to get any use at all from it, meaning that there is no specialisation possible, because the basic entry level for the skill is V.

Obviously if the requirements were changed for say..... Freighters (Remind me how they are are 'powerful' and not 'floating target practice for everyone' please), then some additional skills would need to replace them as a time sink to keep gates similar, but it would then mean that not every single cap ship needs ASC V. This change would also not 'reduce agility' of any ship, unless you then chose to not bother training ASC to V, which is the point as it then makes it a player choice to bother or not bother.
Cristl
#30 - 2016-01-30 20:12:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Cristl
Well, ASC is in its current state a relic of the grand rebalance of 2013 - it was made like this to keep the time for newbies to train into into caps as close as possible to the original time after all the other prereqs were shifted about. I'd say the option are:

1) Shrug your shoulders: it's almost the same for everyone, excluding some haulers with it at 1 (vet privilege)

2) Wait for the capital rebalance, and do some extra stuff with ASC at the same time to give players options over how far to train it, while not shortening the train to caps unnecessarily. Possibly:

a) Make it a rank 20 skill
b) Keep all currently trained SP the same and readjust the levels accordingly. So with L5 (rank5) currently in ASC, you would be adjusted to be at L4 (rank20) and have 375 k SP towards L5 (about 7.3%)
c) All caps now require level 1 only
d) With such a high ranked skill, it could be given effects to more than just agility. Maybe it gives 2% bonuses to capacitor, shield and armour base hp too (for example), and then:
e) When the new versions of all the cap ships are released they have their base stats designed and balanced around the assumption people will train ACS to level IV.
f) Now any cap pilot can choose from levels 1-3 economy class (L3 is about 2days, 16hoursdays), business class (L4 is about 15 days) and to get the most out your capital at L5 it's an 85 day train for first class travelers.
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#31 - 2016-01-30 22:05:11 UTC
Masao Kurata wrote:
Heiluri wrote:
Do we really want to give all those ships 25% agility bonus though?(Which they would get since that skill would be required to fly them)


I think you mean "do we really want to give all those ships a 20% penalty to their base agility?" (The answer imo is hell no.)


What are you smoking? -5% to agility per level. This means it lowers your align time, because it is lowering your inertia modifier.

See: Acceleration

and See: Aligning
Masao Kurata
Perkone
Caldari State
#32 - 2016-02-01 03:55:33 UTC
Estella Osoka wrote:
What are you smoking? -5% to agility per level. This means it lowers your align time, because it is lowering your inertia modifier.


Yes, and because of that they need to reduce the base agility by 20% to avoid buffing the ships.
Michael Weaver
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2016-02-01 08:30:17 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Question why is the intended time sink an issue?


I think Gadget Helmsdottir summarized it nicely few posts back.

The problem with this skill is that you either don't need it at all, or you need to have it at level 5. There is nothing in between. You are no closer to flying capital ships at level 4 than you are at level 0 (except for time spent training to level 4).

The description says 5% bonus per level, but in reality you either get 0% and can't fly cap ships anyway, or you want to fly them , have to get level 5 and you get 25% bonus.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#34 - 2016-02-01 08:38:06 UTC
If you're sore about this, wait until you hit JDC. Lol
Michael Weaver
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2016-02-01 09:06:15 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
If you're sore about this, wait until you hit JDC. Lol

Do you mean Jump Drive Calibration , the one that increases jump distance by 20% ?
Yeah, I know it's PITA to train to level 5, but unlike ASC , there are uses for levels 1-4.

This thread is not about time needed to train the skill, it's about the reason why you have to spend that time.
ASC is currently self-serving, you only have to train it so you have it at level 5.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#36 - 2016-02-01 09:18:21 UTC
There are uses on paper. Try doing a move op with it not at V.

The reason why you have to spend that time, is because all ships are walled behind an SP level.
Gadget Helmsdottir
Gadget's Workshop
#37 - 2016-02-01 14:19:52 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
There are uses on paper. Try doing a move op with it not at V.



That's the point, Morrigan. With any other skill, you CAN try.
Try and fail to keep up, sure.
Not be optimal, absolutely.
But, a pilot can make use of the skill at lower levels than V, and some have.
Said pilot has multiple options open to her concerning JDC, for ASC, there is just yes/no.


Also, to reiterate my stance, I personally have no qualms with the amount of time it takes to train ASC to V. I understand why the skill was changed. It was done to roughly keep the same amount of time to train into a Capital ship after other changes were made to sub-Cap command skills.

However, with the new Cap changes being mixed about, now is the perfect time to bring this skill in line with all others. I would have them still keep the same amount of time to train into Caps, but pilots need the opportunity to decide what level to train ASC. Levels 1-4 should give some benefit, not just level 5.

--Gadget

Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist

Given an hour to save New Eden, how would respected scientist, Albertus Eisenstein compose his thoughts? "Fifty-five minutes to define the problem; save the galaxy in five."
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#38 - 2016-02-01 14:24:10 UTC
Why do i need to train Industry to lvl 5 to fly a ship?

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#39 - 2016-02-01 17:21:19 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Question why is the intended time sink an issue?


I don't really mind it but I still think it's odd that you train a skill that gives a bonus to a bunch of ship you can't fly. It's like if the afterburner skill at the same bonus on it but all AB would require it to be at V to use. Thanks for reducing the cap cost of using while I could not use it at all I guess...

Again, I don't mind the SP investment required to fly a cap ship but I think skills that gives bonus to nothing you can use should be re-though.
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#40 - 2016-02-01 17:43:26 UTC
Michael Weaver wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
If you're sore about this, wait until you hit JDC. Lol

Do you mean Jump Drive Calibration , the one that increases jump distance by 20% ?
Yeah, I know it's PITA to train to level 5, but unlike ASC , there are uses for levels 1-4.

This thread is not about time needed to train the skill, it's about the reason why you have to spend that time.
ASC is currently self-serving, you only have to train it so you have it at level 5.


So you are saying a 5% increase at ASC 1, 10% increase at ASC 2, 15% increase at ASC 3, etc; provides no bonus?

As a cap pilot, I do not understand why you wouldn't want this skill at 5.

However, I do see the problem.

Skill Tree for a Freighter:
+ Advanced Spaceship Command I
- Spaceship Command V
+ Racial Freighter I
- Advanced Spaceship Command V
+Racial Industrial III
- Spaceship Command III

Skill Tree for a Jump Freighter
+ Racial Freighter IV
- Advanced Spaceship Command V
- Spaceship Command V
+Racial Industrial III
- Spaceship Command III
+ Jump Freighters I
- Industry V
- Advanced Spaceship Command IV
+ Jump Drive Calibration I
- Jump Drive Operation 5
- Navigation V
- Warp Drive Operation V
- Navigation I
- Science V

It used to be, all you need for a Freighter was ASC I. This had to have been changed when they lowered the requirements to fly capitals ships.
Previous page123Next page