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Adjust/remove Advanced Spaceship Command skill
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Michael Weaver
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2016-01-29 13:12:25 UTC
Since the new requirement for skill queue is going to be : "meet all prerequisites before beginning to train a skill ",
I think it's good time to revisit the Advanced Spaceship Command skill, which serves absolutely no purpose at the moment except as a time sink.


Why does it concern me?
The skill was changed in the past, so there are pilots like me out there who can fly Freighters without actually having ASP at level 5.
With the new change I will have to train ASP to 5 before I can train Freighters any further.

What does the skill do?
Almost nothing - it adds 5% to agility of capships per level, however if you are a new player there is currently no way to train for cap ship without actually having this skill at 5 and there is nothing unlocked by training it just to level 1 or level 4, so for most players it's fixed 25% bonus. Being 5x rank skill it's basically a big time sink.

What should be done IMO?
The skill should be either removed completely - remember you still need to train "Capital ships" before training for a combat capship, or requirements for big ships adjusted to make sense, for example - Freighters would need ASP1, Industrial cap ships ASP3, Jump Freighters ASP4 and Combat capitals ASP5.
Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#2 - 2016-01-29 13:46:58 UTC
Just another skill everyone's gonna suck the life out of and use elsewhere come next patch.
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#3 - 2016-01-29 14:12:16 UTC
You think 5% agility per level provides nothing? What are you smoking?
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#4 - 2016-01-29 14:14:34 UTC
Oh look, it's the 2016 "Command ship train suuuuuuucks" thread.
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#5 - 2016-01-29 14:24:40 UTC
Estella Osoka wrote:
You think 5% agility per level provides nothing? What are you smoking?

This was my first thought.
A skill that provides a 5% per level bonus is hardly worthless.
Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#6 - 2016-01-29 14:31:34 UTC
Donnachadh wrote:
Estella Osoka wrote:
You think 5% agility per level provides nothing? What are you smoking?

This was my first thought.
A skill that provides a 5% per level bonus is hardly worthless.

You guys aren't reading which ships that 5% agility bonus per level applies to.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#7 - 2016-01-29 14:42:00 UTC
Daniela Doran wrote:
Donnachadh wrote:
Estella Osoka wrote:
You think 5% agility per level provides nothing? What are you smoking?

This was my first thought.
A skill that provides a 5% per level bonus is hardly worthless.

You guys aren't reading which ships that 5% agility bonus per level applies to.



The bonus is very welcome in caps. I know guys running about with <15s align carriers.

I think people's main complaint around this one is that levels 1-3 are literally timesinks. You can't fly the ships they affect at that skill level. Even IV only affects a single ships class.

It's not like you unlock the capitals at I and II>V is a "bonus".


However, my original point remains. Whine thread is whiney.
Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#8 - 2016-01-29 14:51:02 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Daniela Doran wrote:
Donnachadh wrote:
Estella Osoka wrote:
You think 5% agility per level provides nothing? What are you smoking?

This was my first thought.
A skill that provides a 5% per level bonus is hardly worthless.

You guys aren't reading which ships that 5% agility bonus per level applies to.



The bonus is very welcome in caps. I know guys running about with <15s align carriers.

I think people's main complaint around this one is that levels 1-3 are literally timesinks. You can't fly the ships they affect at that skill level. Even IV only affects a single ships class.

It's not like you unlock the capitals at I and II>V is a "bonus".


However, my original point remains. Whine thread is whiney.

Exactly, not everyone is into Caps. In any case it will be the first skill I delete from all my chars and use elsewhere come next patch.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#9 - 2016-01-29 15:30:46 UTC
So why the heck did you train it? It only applies to ships that need it.
unidenify
Deaf Armada
#10 - 2016-01-29 16:35:36 UTC
it is time sink, and do its job.

not CCP fault that you didn't bother to read skillbook description. train it only if you need to.
Gadget Helmsdottir
Gadget's Workshop
#11 - 2016-01-29 16:46:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Gadget Helmsdottir
Rather agree-ish with the OP.

Though, I think this skill needs something added, not taken away.

As is, you get no benefit from training the skill from 1-4, because you can't even pilot a cap without having this at 5.

Perhaps if the skill unlocked something along the way...
Or perhaps better, if certain non-cap ships could take advantage of the skill as a ship bonus or something.

The big thing that gets me, is that there is no real choice to make. Either you have the skill trained to V, or you might as well as not have the skill injected at all.

Yes, 25% agility is nothing to scoff at. But y'know neither is 20%. However a player won't get 20%. She MUST jump straight to 25%.

"Choices" that are not choices is bad game design. I know that this skill wasn't designed this way from the beginning, but that it morphed to its current state over time; however, I think it's well past time to overhaul this skill.

Keep it around, sure, but give the players some real choices to make when training this skill other than the binary 'capital use: on/off'.

Old thread:
http://eve-search.com/thread/228292-1/page/1

--Gadget

Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist

Given an hour to save New Eden, how would respected scientist, Albertus Eisenstein compose his thoughts? "Fifty-five minutes to define the problem; save the galaxy in five."
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#12 - 2016-01-29 16:49:41 UTC
unidenify wrote:
it is time sink, and do its job.

not CCP fault that you didn't bother to read skillbook description. train it only if you need to.


Oh? You want your freighter to align slower? Gankers will rejoice.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#13 - 2016-01-29 17:04:35 UTC
Not to mess with everyone's skewed understanding of time sink, but....

The actual time sink is playing eve. Logging in to the game is where you actually trade a portion of your finite lifespan for the right to pretend you're an immortal internet space hero.

Being that training progresses regardless of your login status - at best it's something that plays in the background. One of the selling points of eve is that training happens in the background and isn't something you have to grind. You truly log in for enjoyment only.

To prove my point. You never have to sit by idle until a skill completes. If you're logged in - your options are infinite. I don't want to mess with your time space continuum, but infinite possibilities aren't all inclusive. You can have infinite possibilities even though you can't fly a titan because you skill queue hasn't completed yet. The standard example of this is that our universe (not New Eden, the real one) is infinite, but isn't the only one.

Anyway, skill training is mislabeled and misunderstood as a time sink. It does make you wait for certain things, but it doesn't prevent your from doing an infinite number of things.

Waiting in the doctor's office is a time sink. It takes time and you have to do it. Reading about eve ship fitting while waiting in the doctor's office isn't. (the wait is, but the activity of reading about ship fitting during that time isn't).


Hope this helps.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#14 - 2016-01-29 17:14:56 UTC
Gadget Helmsdottir wrote:
Rather agree-ish with the OP.

Though, I think this skill needs something added, not taken away.

As is, you get no benefit from training the skill from 1-4, because you can't even pilot a cap without having this at 5.

Perhaps if the skill unlocked something along the way...
Or perhaps better, if certain non-cap ships could take advantage of the skill as a ship bonus or something.

The big thing that gets me, is that there is no real choice to make. Either you have the skill trained to V, or you might as well as not have the skill injected at all.

Yes, 25% agility is nothing to scoff at. But y'know neither is 20%. However a player won't get 20%. She MUST jump straight to 25%.

"Choices" that are not choices is bad game design. I know that this skill wasn't designed this way from the beginning, but that it morphed to its current state over time; however, I think it's well past time to overhaul this skill.

Keep it around, sure, but give the players some real choices to make when training this skill other than the binary 'capital use: on/off'.

Old thread:
http://eve-search.com/thread/228292-1/page/1

--Gadget



'Choices that are not choices are bad game design.'

You have the option to not train it - always. Being the benefits only kick in at the full 25% is somehow egregious to you, but (I've read the whole eve developer handbook twice) no where is there any requirement or guarantee that the incremental completion of skill levels 1-4 will give you incremental benefits. That's something you have made up. I understand where it might be a reasonable assumption on your part to somehow expect that, but it's still an assumption. The first four levels being a waste is an illusion you have created and choose to believe in. They aren't a waste, they are necessary to get to level 5.

You're just whining about some incremental character buffs you feel you are somehow entitled to get. The problem with this whole post is that it has everything to do with imagined entitlement and nothing to do with the skill attainment process.

Bears poop in the woods. This skill does nothing for you until you complete level 5. Move on.
Masao Kurata
Perkone
Caldari State
#15 - 2016-01-29 17:21:08 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
I think people's main complaint around this one is that levels 1-3 are literally timesinks. You can't fly the ships they affect at that skill level. Even IV only affects a single ships class.

It's not like you unlock the capitals at I and II>V is a "bonus".


Wait, what? There's no ship you can get into with ASC IV, you need ASC V for every single one.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#16 - 2016-01-29 17:28:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Morrigan LeSante
Masao Kurata wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
I think people's main complaint around this one is that levels 1-3 are literally timesinks. You can't fly the ships they affect at that skill level. Even IV only affects a single ships class.

It's not like you unlock the capitals at I and II>V is a "bonus".


Wait, what? There's no ship you can get into with ASC IV, you need ASC V for every single one.



Eve mon said JFs. However it may be the hulls themselves need V and it is just one of those weird ones.
Masao Kurata
Perkone
Caldari State
#17 - 2016-01-29 17:30:56 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Masao Kurata wrote:
Wait, what? There's no ship you can get into with ASC IV, you need ASC V for every single one.



Eve money said JFs. However it may be the hulls themselves need V and it is just one of those weird ones.


It is. You need {Racial} Freighter to use any JF, which requires ASC V.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#18 - 2016-01-29 18:56:42 UTC
Does anyone happen to have the reference link to this upcoming change and surrounding information?
Though I agree ASC is a weird one that needs V as a timesink for everything.
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
#19 - 2016-01-29 20:50:48 UTC
WTF do you think will happen if it's removed? Do you honestly think we can pilot advanced spaceships with mere Basic Spaceship Command skills?

Perfection is a dish best served like wasabi .

Bumble's Space Log
Gadget Helmsdottir
Gadget's Workshop
#20 - 2016-01-29 22:29:41 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:

'Choices that are not choices are bad game design.'

You have the option to not train it - always. Being the benefits only kick in at the full 25% is somehow egregious to you, but (I've read the whole eve developer handbook twice) no where is there any requirement or guarantee that the incremental completion of skill levels 1-4 will give you incremental benefits. That's something you have made up. I understand where it might be a reasonable assumption on your part to somehow expect that, but it's still an assumption. The first four levels being a waste is an illusion you have created and choose to believe in. They aren't a waste, they are necessary to get to level 5.

You're just whining about some incremental character buffs you feel you are somehow entitled to get. The problem with this whole post is that it has everything to do with imagined entitlement and nothing to do with the skill attainment process.

Bears poop in the woods. This skill does nothing for you until you complete level 5. Move on.


Dearest Seems Lost,

Quote:
"...an illusion you have created and choose to believe in."
"You're just whining..."
"...you feel you are somehow entitled to get."
"... imagined entitlement ..."


The first Caucus is on Monday... and is in Iowa. Please, save your political and personal attacks for the campaign trail.



Still with me?
Good.

Serendipity Lost,

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you on the idea that my post was some sort of wonky liberal-whiskey-high. I'll do some more checking in a bit, but I can't think of another skill that is set up in the way this one is currently.

I'll also say, again, that I'm fully aware that this skill wasn't created this way from inception. It was changed during the ship tiericide. This was likely a stop-gap measure, or the end result was perhaps overlooked when the needed changes were made to the ships themselves. Nevertheless, the skill is now outside the path set by all other skills, including it's former version.

As is, the skill is confusing and anachronistic, and while I DO NOT advocate its removal, I do think that it needs to be brought in line with other skills.

Any other skill still grants a pilot some tangible use should she decide not max out the skill. Only this one doesn't.

It doesn't fit -- in a bad way. Perhaps with the incoming Capital changes this skill could be re-examined.

Having said all that... No it's not the end of the world if this skill never gets changed, but the way it's currently set up goes against what has been presented from skills so far. Yes, this is my opinion, but it's an honest one gleaned from observation. Still, I would ask that this skill be shored up, or at least made note of...and more attention paid to skill creation and changes to avoid this situation in the future.


--Gadget

Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist

Given an hour to save New Eden, how would respected scientist, Albertus Eisenstein compose his thoughts? "Fifty-five minutes to define the problem; save the galaxy in five."
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