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Ghost orders - why are they here?

Author
IdFlex CREAM
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1 - 2016-01-28 18:30:24 UTC  |  Edited by: IdFlex CREAM
So browsing around the market i saw that some Guristas Nova Heavy Assault Missiles were being bought at way over market price, so i popped some in my cargo and set down a 8 jump trip to try sell that ****. Knowing that this **** was too good to be true, i wasn't surprised that when i placed the sell order the buy got pulled the very same moment. The order had a min quantity exactly at quantity so i figured the guy doesn't have enough ISK to actually cover his order and it gets pulled hence the name ghost order.

So my question to you guys is, why does the broker allow these orders and also is this a bug or is it just how the EVE market works?

If it is a part of the game mechanic then that feature seems to be completely redundant as it serves no other purpose than to inflate prices, or you guys have other opinions id like to hear them too.

If this is a bug then it's a market breaking bug as it distorts the real forces of supply and demand.

Thanks for you attention,
CREAM
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
#2 - 2016-01-28 18:41:30 UTC
Margin Trading V

Perfection is a dish best served like wasabi .

Bumble's Space Log

IdFlex CREAM
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#3 - 2016-01-28 18:59:03 UTC  |  Edited by: IdFlex CREAM
Bumblefck wrote:
Margin Trading V


IDK why you call that margin trading. If this was margin trading, then the broker would lend money to the guy buying, at chosen leverage and he would put up a buy order for an asset with the borrowed funds, once someone sells into his buy order, the trade is COMPLETE and if the next buy order down the book is way too low in price to cover the borrowed margin of the guy, the broker would take in his collateral and would either have to cover further losses from their pockets or steal from their customers, however the trade always completes.

This isn't margin trading, this is Ghost Trading I .
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#4 - 2016-01-28 19:01:52 UTC
You were hooked by the Margin Trading Scam.

Please Google it so I don't have to make links for you.

https://www.google.com/search?q=site:forums.eveonline.com++margin+trading+scam
Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research
Nornir Empire
#5 - 2016-01-28 19:06:35 UTC
IdFlex CREAM wrote:
Bumblefck wrote:
Margin Trading V


IDK why you call that margin trading. If this was margin trading, then the broker would lend money to the guy buying, at chosen leverage and he would put up a buy order for an asset with the borrowed funds, once someone sells into his buy order, the trade is COMPLETE and if the next buy order down the book is way too low in price to cover the borrowed margin of the guy, the broker would take in his collateral and would either have to cover further losses from their pockets or steal from their customers, however the trade always completes.

This isn't margin trading, this is Ghost Trading I .


Think about it for a bit, what would happen capsuleers could borrow ISK from NPCs? Remember our characters have virtually zero accountability.
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
#6 - 2016-01-28 19:20:24 UTC

It's the Margin Trading skill, you barleyjack.



Happy Scam Day





IdFlex CREAM wrote:
Bumblefck wrote:
Margin Trading V


IDK why you call that margin trading. If this was margin trading, then the broker would lend money to the guy buying, at chosen leverage and he would put up a buy order for an asset with the borrowed funds, once someone sells into his buy order, the trade is COMPLETE and if the next buy order down the book is way too low in price to cover the borrowed margin of the guy, the broker would take in his collateral and would either have to cover further losses from their pockets or steal from their customers, however the trade always completes.

This isn't margin trading, this is Ghost Trading I .



Perfection is a dish best served like wasabi .

Bumble's Space Log

IdFlex CREAM
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#7 - 2016-01-28 19:23:50 UTC
Elizabeth Norn wrote:
IdFlex CREAM wrote:
Bumblefck wrote:
Margin Trading V


IDK why you call that margin trading. If this was margin trading, then the broker would lend money to the guy buying, at chosen leverage and he would put up a buy order for an asset with the borrowed funds, once someone sells into his buy order, the trade is COMPLETE and if the next buy order down the book is way too low in price to cover the borrowed margin of the guy, the broker would take in his collateral and would either have to cover further losses from their pockets or steal from their customers, however the trade always completes.

This isn't margin trading, this is Ghost Trading I .


Think about it for a bit, what would happen capsuleers could borrow ISK from NPCs? Remember our characters have virtually zero accountability.


Well forgive me if i'm wrong but this ghost trade scam is essentially borrowing money from the NPC broker, it's that the NPC somehow doesn't keep the collateral to fill or even partially fill the order because the min quantity is exactly at buy quantity. If the collateral was kept to fulfill the order then we'd be getting closer to something like margin trading.

And to answer your question, dont u think it would be more interesting if capsuleers would have to borrow money from other players at a floating interest rate and trade assets without them ever leaving the market, CFD style. And the collateral would be used to cover losing positions.
Alexi Stokov
State War Academy
Caldari State
#8 - 2016-01-28 19:48:13 UTC
IdFlex CREAM wrote:
Elizabeth Norn wrote:
IdFlex CREAM wrote:
Bumblefck wrote:
Margin Trading V


IDK why you call that margin trading. If this was margin trading, then the broker would lend money to the guy buying, at chosen leverage and he would put up a buy order for an asset with the borrowed funds, once someone sells into his buy order, the trade is COMPLETE and if the next buy order down the book is way too low in price to cover the borrowed margin of the guy, the broker would take in his collateral and would either have to cover further losses from their pockets or steal from their customers, however the trade always completes.

This isn't margin trading, this is Ghost Trading I .


Think about it for a bit, what would happen capsuleers could borrow ISK from NPCs? Remember our characters have virtually zero accountability.


Well forgive me if i'm wrong but this ghost trade scam is essentially borrowing money from the NPC broker, it's that the NPC somehow doesn't keep the collateral to fill or even partially fill the order because the min quantity is exactly at buy quantity. If the collateral was kept to fulfill the order then we'd be getting closer to something like margin trading.

And to answer your question, dont u think it would be more interesting if capsuleers would have to borrow money from other players at a floating interest rate and trade assets without them ever leaving the market, CFD style. And the collateral would be used to cover losing positions.



It's called margin trading because that's what CCP called the skill.
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
#9 - 2016-01-28 21:02:45 UTC

Perhaps, but I'd wager you'd have to re-write large parts of the game's code in order to accommodate this (and banking too, for that matter).


IdFlex CREAM wrote:


And to answer your question, dont u think it would be more interesting if capsuleers would have to borrow money from other players at a floating interest rate and trade assets without them ever leaving the market, CFD style. And the collateral would be used to cover losing positions.

Perfection is a dish best served like wasabi .

Bumble's Space Log

Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research
Nornir Empire
#10 - 2016-01-28 21:20:25 UTC
IdFlex CREAM wrote:
Elizabeth Norn wrote:
IdFlex CREAM wrote:
Bumblefck wrote:
Margin Trading V


IDK why you call that margin trading. If this was margin trading, then the broker would lend money to the guy buying, at chosen leverage and he would put up a buy order for an asset with the borrowed funds, once someone sells into his buy order, the trade is COMPLETE and if the next buy order down the book is way too low in price to cover the borrowed margin of the guy, the broker would take in his collateral and would either have to cover further losses from their pockets or steal from their customers, however the trade always completes.

This isn't margin trading, this is Ghost Trading I .


Think about it for a bit, what would happen capsuleers could borrow ISK from NPCs? Remember our characters have virtually zero accountability.


Well forgive me if i'm wrong but this ghost trade scam is essentially borrowing money from the NPC broker, it's that the NPC somehow doesn't keep the collateral to fill or even partially fill the order because the min quantity is exactly at buy quantity. If the collateral was kept to fulfill the order then we'd be getting closer to something like margin trading.

And to answer your question, dont u think it would be more interesting if capsuleers would have to borrow money from other players at a floating interest rate and trade assets without them ever leaving the market, CFD style. And the collateral would be used to cover losing positions.


No money is being borrowed; perhaps the illusion of it, but that's all.

Adding in-game loan contracts would be nice, but unlikely since they have already been removed before. They won't be adding anything as complex as you'd like due to the ways it would be abused to scam people, it's too easy to fake or cause your death in EVE and run off with the ISK. We only just got multisell/buy, so don't expect too much for a while.
Charlinda Akheteru
Akheteru Integrated Astrometrics
#11 - 2016-01-28 23:16:01 UTC
IdFlex CREAM wrote:
Well forgive me if i'm wrong

No.

Your understanding of margin trading as a concept means nothing here. When you come with a question and people start trying to explain Eve Online game mechanics to you, you shouldn't argue with them about how Real Life works. You should pay attention and learn how Eve Online works.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I see several 2-3 billion ISK buy orders for various Officer modules and there's some idiot trying to clean out his hangar selling the same mods for just over 1b. :D \o/ ^^

Straight
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#12 - 2016-01-29 00:38:55 UTC
Margin Trading reduces the amount of ISK you have to put in escrow up-front for a buy order:

Escrow amount = (1 - 25%) ^ margin_trading_skill_level

Margin Trading 0: 100% in escrow
Margin Trading 1: 75%
Margin Trading 2: 56%
Margin Trading 3: 42%
Margin Trading 4: 32%
Margin Trading 5: 24%

The less ISK you have in escrow, the lower the opportunity cost. You can use the ISK for something else while you wait for your buy orders to be filled.

The longer it takes for a buy order to be filled, or the more buy orders you have, the more useful Margin Trading is.

When the ISK held in escrow is all used-up, more ISK is removed from your wallet. If there is no more ISK in your wallet, the order is cancelled.

Margin Trading Scam - A Guide
Kyra Lee
Doomheim
#13 - 2016-01-29 08:20:29 UTC
Bumblefck wrote:

It's the Margin Trading skill, you barleyjack.


Barleyjack. I like that word, I need to find a reason to use that somewhere...
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
#14 - 2016-01-29 19:24:12 UTC
Thankfully, on these forums, it's very easy - as soon as you spot a mistake has been made by a poster, just hit them with the good ol' 'barleyjack' moniker!


Kyra Lee wrote:
Bumblefck wrote:

It's the Margin Trading skill, you barleyjack.


Barleyjack. I like that word, I need to find a reason to use that somewhere...

Perfection is a dish best served like wasabi .

Bumble's Space Log