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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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Real Tractor Beams

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ISD Gallifreyan
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#61 - 2016-01-23 21:21:22 UTC
This thread does seem to have come to the end of it's constructive criticism stage.
Since The OP does not want to extrapolate an equation of how it would work, I'm not sure what there is to discuss further.
However I will not lock this thread as i think there is something to the Idea.

I will lock it if the back and forth of "If you don't understand or like the idea move on" or "this is a bad idea and you should feel bad for not working harder to give CCP a polished and finished feature" continues.

If you are posting an Idea here is does need to stand up against constructive criticism.
It is not constructive to dismiss comments about the core mechanics of the game.

CCP is not going to re-write core ship flight mechanics to allow for this tractor mechanic, however since it was mentioned that Structures may have a Tractor Feature Module, there is a possibility of having it put on ships in the future.

I will be watching.

(P.S. I have cleaned some of topic comments.)

ISD Gallifreyan

Lt. Commander

Community Communication Liaisons (CCL)

Interstellar Services Department
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#62 - 2016-01-24 12:15:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Thanks isd, I'll do my best keep this constructive and hope others do the same

Tractor equation

Max tractor speed = (mass x target velocity x "Y") - tractor strength

Where Y is a factor of ballance for the different hull sizes. Standard tracking penalties apply to multiple tractors.


With regards to the current aligning mechanics, I feel the code should be rewritten to better simulate actual physics and prepare for any future features that would benefit from a better aligning mechanic (e.g. Flight stick controls, line of site weapons)

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#63 - 2016-01-27 11:19:05 UTC
Wow, my solution has stunned the nay sayers into silence... Cool

I'm happy to let this thread fade into the background but i hope that, with the upcoming citadel tractor beams, CCP consider introducing ship based tractor beams and perhaps what has been discussed in this thread will help them implement it in a balanced way.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#64 - 2016-01-27 12:54:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Donnachadh
NO you have not stunned us into silence, your refusal to address legitimate questions asked leaves us with no options. Even ISD Gallifreyan noticed and commented on it, see quote below, and yet you still refuse to provide answers.

ISD Gallifreyan wrote:
Since The OP does not want to extrapolate an equation of how it would work, I'm not sure what there is to discuss further.


When / IF you decide to expand on your idea and provide some real answers then perhaps the discussion can continue.
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#65 - 2016-01-27 13:27:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
I have answered every legitimate question asked of me. I have provided more than enough information to show how this feature would work, how i would balance it and given sound reasoning for existing mechanics to be changed.

I even spelled out the simple formula for you but you ignored it... Just like you did every other time i essentially told you how the formula would work. What?

For your continence I have edited the original post to help consolidate the thread.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#66 - 2016-01-27 14:51:53 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:

Max tractor speed = tractor strength - (mass x "Y" x (target velocity))


So MWD becomes even more of a "defacto" choice for prop mod since it add both more mass and speed to help escaping this. Is this intended by design of your tractor beam?
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#67 - 2016-01-27 15:29:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:

Max tractor speed = tractor strength - (mass x "Y" x (target velocity))


So MWD becomes even more of a "defacto" choice for prop mod since it add both more mass and speed to help escaping this. Is this intended by design of your tractor beam?


Afterburners also add mass when activate and fitting an oversized prop mod is viable on many ships, so no, i do not believe a MWD with become any more the " de facto" module than it already is.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#68 - 2016-01-27 16:21:00 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:

Max tractor speed = tractor strength - (mass x "Y" x (target velocity))


So MWD becomes even more of a "defacto" choice for prop mod since it add both more mass and speed to help escaping this. Is this intended by design of your tractor beam?


Afterburners also add mass when activate and fitting an oversized prop mod is viable on many ships, so no, i do not believe a MWD with become any more the " de facto" module than it already is.


You are missing the point. What I mean is your tractor beam pigeon hold any ship that already prefer MWD deeper in there. The few ship that prefer oversized AB will still use that but everything else will be pushed toward MWD because an AB geives less benefit against this added threat to mobility.

Also, is my faster/heavyer ship pulling you if I win the battle of weight/speed or are you "anchored" so the force can only apply to others? Shouldn't the ship trying to do the pulling be stuck with his own tracting beam at least until de-activation and be pulled if the opposing ship just flat out has more movement force?
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#69 - 2016-01-27 16:32:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Frostys Virpio wrote:

You are missing the point. What I mean is your tractor beam pigeon hold any ship that already prefer MWD deeper in there. The few ship that prefer oversized AB will still use that but everything else will be pushed toward MWD because an AB geives less benefit against this added threat to mobility.


Sorry i misunderstood... In my experience, there are very few ships that use an afterburner for kiting in PVP. The only time i ever use an AB in on a duel prop ship, frigate or a phantasm. In all these cases, i would either have built in redundancy or the ability to pull range from a tactoring BS before it can lock me, thanks to my speed and small sig in the case of an AB frigate.

Frostys Virpio wrote:

Also, is my faster/heavyer ship pulling you if I win the battle of weight/speed or are you "anchored" so the force can only apply to others? Shouldn't the ship trying to do the pulling be stuck with his own tracting beam at least until de-activation and be pulled if the opposing ship just flat out has more movement force?


Good question. I was thinking that the ship could move while tractoring but perhaps being anchored/slowed would be better balanced...

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#70 - 2016-01-28 06:38:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Donnachadh
Rek Seven wrote:
Max tractor speed = tractor strength - (mass x "Y" x (target velocity))

Missed that please accept my apologies for that oversight.

However you may be able to fool some here with this hashed together pile of totally worthless but you will not fool me.

Given your equation above the tractor speed is physically impossible to calculate. Why you ask? Well I am glad you did ask. It is impossible to calculate because the values for tractor strength and this "Y" factor are both unknown.

So now you need to take this to the next logical step and provide yet more information and since you like to be asked very specific questions here are the next ones in the process.

Is the strength of the tractor beam a fixed value, if so what is that fixed value?
If the strength of the tractor beam is variable what is the equation used to figure that value?

Is the "Y" factor a fixed value, if it is what is that value?
If the "Y" factor is variable what is the equation used to figure that value?
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#71 - 2016-01-28 09:50:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
You sure have a charming way of speaking to people.Roll

As you will note, this is an algebraic equation and as such, exact figures are not necessary at this stage. There is nothing stopping you or anyone else from assigning a value for the tractor strength or "Y".

To explain to you how this works, as you don't seem to understand... Should CCP decide to implement this feature, they would need to look at all ship classes and come up with a value for the tractor speed and "Y" to ensure the mechanic was balanced. Expecting players to precisely design every idea in the "features and ideas" section is utterly unreasonable.

With regards to the value for "Y", you will note that i said that this is a balancing factor and as such, its purpose is to bring the sum of the "tractor speed - ship speed x mass" equation for the different hull classes, in line with each other. Clearly, the figure will be < 0 with the smallest hulls having the smallest "Y" value.

For example, if Y= 0.00004 for my proteus and the tractor strength was, lets say, 500 m/s. With my MWD activated, i would be able to pull away at a speed of 391 m/s . However, if my MWD was switched off for some reason, i would be pulled in at a speed of 392 m/s.

My proteus: base mass = 14,153.5 t (increased to 19,15335 with MWD) , MWD speed 1164 m/s (base speed 193)

So to answer your specific question again, the tractor speed is fixed and the "Y" value is variable

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#72 - 2016-01-28 14:14:27 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
You sure have a charming way of speaking to people.Roll

As you will note, this is an algebraic equation and as such, exact figures are not necessary at this stage. There is nothing stopping you or anyone else from assigning a value for the tractor strength or "Y".

To explain to you how this works, as you don't seem to understand... Should CCP decide to implement this feature, they would need to look at all ship classes and come up with a value for the tractor speed and "Y" to ensure the mechanic was balanced. Expecting players to precisely design every idea in the "features and ideas" section is utterly unreasonable.

With regards to the value for "Y", you will note that i said that this is a balancing factor and as such, its purpose is to bring the sum of the "tractor speed - ship speed x mass" equation for the different hull classes, in line with each other. Clearly, the figure will be < 0 with the smallest hulls having the highest "Y" value.

For example, if Y= 0.0004 for my proteus and the tractor strength was, lets say, 500 m/s. With my MWD activated, i would be able to pull away at a speed of 380 m/s . However, if my MWD was switched off for some reason, i would be pulled in at a speed of 390 m/s.

My proteus: base mass = 14,153.5 t mwd speed 1164 m/s

So to answer your specific question again, the tractor speed is fixed and the "Y" value is variable


Max tractor speed = tractor strength - (mass x "Y" x (target velocity))

X = 500 - ( 14,153.5 * 0.0004 * 1164)

X = 500 - ( 6589.8696)

X = -6089.8696
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#73 - 2016-01-28 14:37:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Frostys Virpio wrote:

Max tractor speed = tractor strength - (mass x "Y" x (target velocity))

X = 500 - ( 14,153.5 * 0.0004 * 1164)

X = 500 - ( 6589.8696)

X = -6089.8696



Oops thanks for pointing that out, it should have read:
Max tractor speed = (mass x target velocity x "Y") - tractor strength

Also the Y in my example should have been 0.00004

Thus

X = (19,153.5*1164*.00004) - 500
= 391.79

To clarify, the "ship velocity" is actually the vector in relation to the tractor ship.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#74 - 2016-01-28 18:15:57 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:

Max tractor speed = tractor strength - (mass x "Y" x (target velocity))

X = 500 - ( 14,153.5 * 0.0004 * 1164)

X = 500 - ( 6589.8696)

X = -6089.8696



Oops thanks for pointing that out, it should have read:
Max tractor speed = (mass x target velocity x "Y") - tractor strength

Also the Y in my example should have been 0.00004

Thus

X = (19,153.5*1164*.00004) - 500
= 391.79

To clarify, the "ship velocity" is actually the vector in relation to the tractor ship.


100MN AB

X = (64153.5*1037*0.00004) - 500

X = 2161.08718
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#75 - 2016-01-28 20:49:17 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:

X = (64153.5*1037*0.00004) - 500

X = 2161.08718



Are you saying the proteus has 64,153.5 t mass with 100 MN AB? ...I'm not able to test right now but that doesn't sound right.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#76 - 2016-01-28 20:57:37 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:

X = (64153.5*1037*0.00004) - 500

X = 2161.08718



Are you saying the proteus has 64,153.5 t mass with 100 MN AB? ...I'm not able to test right now but that doesn't sound right.


Well according to PyFa and The EVE wiki, it does add 50 thousand tons so yeah... I was surprised too but I went with the numbers I could get...
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#77 - 2016-01-28 21:19:40 UTC
Yeah you are right. I didn't realise it increased it that much.

In that case, any formula would have to factor in the size of the prop mod.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#78 - 2016-01-29 02:39:39 UTC
Rek before I start I want to thank you for putting some numbers to your equation idea it helps immensely.
I still like your basic concept as I have from the start but there are still some serious bugs to work out.

Looking at one single ship to reduce the amount of simulations to run and because my grand niece thinks it is pretty I have been using the Tristan. Initially I set the value of "Y" to be just enough so your tractor would hold a pilot with skill acceleration control at zero(0) in a ship with no rigs and no modules.

Add even one polycarbon engine housiung and the additional speed with no additional mass allows the ship to escape your tractor. The same applies for acceleration control, have the pilot train that to level 1 or above and again they would escape your tractor.

While I agree that the formula dose not have to apply equally to all possible combinations the limited results so far concern me because they are so heavily stacked against the newer pilots with lower skills. I agree lower skills pilots will always be at a disadvantage, however I do not believe that adding a module that works so heavily against them is a good idea.

The conceptual idea of using mass and sig radius has been bothering me all day since skills would not have as much of an impact. I freely admit that this has not gone passed the concept phase but I am working on that as well. Do you folks have any ideas on how we might make the mass / sig radius work?
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#79 - 2016-01-29 13:15:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
So, i have been trying to balance this mechanic for ships that fit an oversized prop mod this morning... The simplest solution i have come up with is to subtract the mass that a prop module adds. This keeps the mechanic in line with the original idea of the tractor speed being dependant on target speed and hull size (i.e base mass).

If we changed the formula the reflect this and used a Y value of for for frigates 0.0002, a Tristan with level 5 skill using a tech 2 MWD to travel 2980 m/s would be able to escape a tractor at a speed of 69.78 m/s... And if it were to use a T2 10mn AB at a max speed of 2076m/s, the Tristan would pe pulled in at a speed of 103.1m/s.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#80 - 2016-01-29 13:17:25 UTC
Donnachadh wrote:


The conceptual idea of using mass and sig radius has been bothering me all day since skills would not have as much of an impact. I freely admit that this has not gone passed the concept phase but I am working on that as well. Do you folks have any ideas on how we might make the mass / sig radius work?


Bigger sig make it easier or harder to escape?

Higher mass make it easier to escape or harder?