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The Ferox is underpowered and needs a buff

Author
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2016-01-27 11:14:25 UTC
ChromeStriker wrote:
Show us your fits.

Somethings wrong with your statements and the only way to prove this to you is through the fits....

Ferox and Brutix.


This

Show us what you consider to be good brawling fits and good ranged fits for both the ferox and brutix, and maybe we will understand why you think the ferox in weak.
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#42 - 2016-01-27 15:11:03 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
So you want to say that because the Ferox can do something that no other combat battlecruiser can do, that therefore means it isn't underpowered? If the Cerberus had its missile rate of fire bonus removed, would it not be underpowered? It would still outrange any other HAC but at considerably reduced DPS. Does that mean it would be fine without the rate of fire bonus? Should the bonus be removed? Is it overpowered to have the bonus? Because by your logic apparently it is.


If you were to remove missile ROF, you would have to put something back in that bonus slot. What would it be? Shield resist? Shield boost amount? Missile flight time? MIssile velocity? Missile damage? Missile explosion radius? Missile explosion velocity?

Back to the Ferox, it just does not need more damage. It's pretty decently balanced right now for it's intended job. If you try to run it like a Brutix, the Brutix will do a better job at it but if you run it like a Ferox, then it shows it's strength.
Rovinia
Exotic Dancers Union
#43 - 2016-01-27 21:05:30 UTC
With "Vanguard", the Ferox got an additional Medslot when they removed the resistance bonus. That helped the ship quite a lot. If you miss the resistance boni, just fit an Invulnerability Field. If not you can increase the damage application or utility of the ship.

I like the current version of the Ferox. It's still not the "King of the hill" in the Battlecruiser segment, but it shines in many situations.
Shallanna Yassavi
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#44 - 2016-01-28 07:49:39 UTC
Any time you deal with something with a range specialty, think about what happens when you've got a lot of them spread out:
A short-range ship might (should) put out more damage, but a fleet of them don't overlap fields of fire nearly as well. Make a move at one, and its friends make your life interesting.

A signature :o

Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2016-01-28 16:44:07 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
If you were to remove missile ROF, you would have to put something back in that bonus slot.

That's my point exactly!! The Ferox has LESS skill bonus than the Brutix!!

The Brutix has:
10% Damage per level (increased above standard because it has fewer weapon slots)
7.5% Armor Repair per level (standard skill bonus)


The Ferox has:
5% Damage per level (standard, despite having fewer weapon slots)
10% Optimal Range per level (standard skill bonus)

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#46 - 2016-01-28 17:50:59 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
If you were to remove missile ROF, you would have to put something back in that bonus slot.

That's my point exactly!! The Ferox has LESS skill bonus than the Brutix!!

The Brutix has:
10% Damage per level (increased above standard because it has fewer weapon slots)
7.5% Armor Repair per level (standard skill bonus)


The Ferox has:
5% Damage per level (standard, despite having fewer weapon slots)
10% Optimal Range per level (standard skill bonus)


I see 2 bonus on each ship. The fact that the bonus are not numerically equivalent does not mean they are not balanced.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#47 - 2016-01-28 18:12:19 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
If you were to remove missile ROF, you would have to put something back in that bonus slot.

That's my point exactly!! The Ferox has LESS skill bonus than the Brutix!!

The Brutix has:
10% Damage per level (increased above standard because it has fewer weapon slots)
7.5% Armor Repair per level (standard skill bonus)


The Ferox has:
5% Damage per level (standard, despite having fewer weapon slots)
10% Optimal Range per level (standard skill bonus)


I'm not sure what you're trying to prove. Your same logic would apply to any gallente Vs Caldari boat. For example, an enyo does more dps than a harpy. Yet we don't have enyo fleets, we have harpy fleets. Should we give the harpy a 10% damage bonus too, just because the numbers don't match? Do you really want to buff harpy fleets just because the numbers don't match? You need to realize an optimal bonus is a damage bonus. It means the damage can be applied farther using shorter range, high dps ammo.

Caldari hybrid boats are about range, not damage. Gallente hybrid boats are about raw damage and application (tracking). This is the racial flavor of each. They are balanced around those roles. A dual XLASB blaster ferox has a much better and sustainable tank than a brutix, with slightly less dps. I've seen dual XLASB ferox's win against hull or dual rep brutix.

Its not rocket science to understand the roles for each ship. The ferox has the largest base targeting range of any t1 BC, why do you think that is? Maybe its because its intended to use rail guns, at range? The exact thing that plenty of alliances are doing with them in fleets with good success. The strange thing is, i've never seen a brutix fleet... maybe there is a reason for that?
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#48 - 2016-01-28 18:47:18 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
I see 2 bonus on each ship. The fact that the bonus are not numerically equivalent does not mean they are not balanced.

Given that the Ferox and Brutix have the same total number of high slots, total slots, and weapon slots, yes it does mean that.



Stitch Kaneland wrote:
I'm not sure what you're trying to prove. Your same logic would apply to any gallente Vs Caldari boat. For example, an enyo does more dps than a harpy.

The Enyo has two damage skill bonuses while the Harpy has one. That 10% damage bonus per level on the Enyo is two 5% bonuses rolled together. The 10% damage bonus on the Brutix is not two skill bonuses, it is one.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#49 - 2016-01-28 18:49:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
The strange thing is, i've never seen a brutix fleet... maybe there is a reason for that?

I've never seen a Ferox fleet, but it is a fleet ship and the Brutix is a solo or small gang ship. Just as a Ferox is possibly more popular for fleets (that's arguable), the Brutix is clearly more popular for soloing and/or PVE as well it should be. It has nearly identical damage to range ratios as the Ferox within the ranges they can both match (which is most of their range), but better defense.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#50 - 2016-01-28 19:22:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitch Kaneland
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
The strange thing is, i've never seen a brutix fleet... maybe there is a reason for that?

I've never seen a Ferox fleet, but it is a fleet ship and the Brutix is a solo or small gang ship. Just as a Ferox is possibly more popular for fleets (that's arguable), the Brutix is clearly more popular for soloing and/or PVE as well it should be. It has nearly identical damage to range ratios as the Ferox within the ranges they can both match (which is most of their range), but better defense.


I think you need to step out of EFT and look at actual fights happening in game. Ferox fleets and hurricane fleets are common now. The ferox is a fleet ship that is meant to use rail guns, and when looking at it in that manner, it out performs a brutix in every way.

[Ferox, RailFleet]
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Damage Control II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
50MN Quad LiF Restrained Microwarpdrive
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script

250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
[empty high slot]

Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I

EHP: 76050 (with 133 native recharge) and all resists are over 60% or 85k with invuln overheated
Damage: 539 dps @ 39+24km using antimatter
Targeting Range: 93.75km

[Brutix, Rail Fleet]
1600mm Rolled Tungsten Compact Plates
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Damage Control II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Reactor Control Unit II

50MN Y-T8 Compact Microwarpdrive
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script

250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
[empty high slot]

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I

EHP: 64241
Damage: 481 @ 29+31km
Targeting Range: 120km

To point out, the brutix isn't designed for rails, as it needs 2 fitting mods to make use of 250mm rail guns. This reduces its damage potential and still doesn't match the ferox in EHP. Not to mention with 2 tracking computers, still doesn't have better optimal range (better fall-off, but meh).

The brutix also needs to fit a sebo to get comparable/better range than base ferox range (93km on base ferox, and 75km base on brutix).

Again, you are comparing ships with different roles. The brutix is an in your face brawler, which is a decent solo pvp BC. The ferox is a ship setup with railguns in mind, and is a better fleet ship. However, the ferox can still brawl decently with dual XLASB fit, and tanks better than a brutix since it can OH invuln, otherwise, they both tank about the same.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#51 - 2016-01-28 20:15:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
EHP: 76050 (with 133 native recharge) and all resists are over 60% or 85k with invuln overheated
Damage: 539 dps @ 39+24km using antimatter
Targeting Range: 93.75km

[Brutix, New Setup 1]
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Damage Control II

Large Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
EM Ward Field II
50MN Quad LiF Restrained Microwarpdrive

250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Plutonium Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Plutonium Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Plutonium Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Plutonium Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Plutonium Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Plutonium Charge M
[empty high slot]

Medium Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer II
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I

EHP: 56428 (with 74 native recharge) and all resists are over 60%
Damage: 592 dps @ 34+26km using plutonium and lets not forget the 99 DPS Ferox gets from 5 hobgoblins vs 158 the Brutix gets from 5 hammerheads. So it's more like this:
Ferox: 638 dps @ 39+24km using antimatter
Brutix: 750 dps @ 34+26km using plutonium

Better damage projection than Ferox due to larger number of low slots, and tank isn't that much worse. I'm not saying I would choose Brutix over Ferox for a shield fleet, but I am saying the Brutix can be shield fleeted.


Stitch Kaneland wrote:
To point out, the brutix isn't designed for rails, as it needs 2 fitting mods to make use of 250mm rail guns.

No it doesn't.


Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Again, you are comparing ships with different roles.

Again, we are in agreement that they have different roles. What you are missing is that the Ferox has a smaller damage bonus than the Brutix. The Ferox has 1.5 skill bonuses, not 2 like pretty much every other tech 1 ship. (I say pretty much every other tech 1 ship because there are three other combat battlecruisers with the same problem of having ~1.5 skill bonuses)

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#52 - 2016-01-28 20:34:20 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
EHP: 76050 (with 133 native recharge) and all resists are over 60% or 85k with invuln overheated
Damage: 539 dps @ 39+24km using antimatter
Targeting Range: 93.75km

[Brutix, New Setup 1]
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Damage Control II

Large Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
EM Ward Field II
50MN Quad LiF Restrained Microwarpdrive

250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Plutonium Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Plutonium Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Plutonium Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Plutonium Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Plutonium Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Plutonium Charge M
[empty high slot]

Medium Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer II
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I

EHP: 56428 (with 74 native recharge) and all resists are over 60%
Damage: 592 dps @ 34+26km using plutonium
Better damage projection than Ferox due to larger number of low slots, and tank isn't that much worse. I'm not saying I would choose Brutix over Ferox for a shield fleet, but I am saying the Brutix can be shield fleeted.


Stitch Kaneland wrote:
To point out, the brutix isn't designed for rails, as it needs 2 fitting mods to make use of 250mm rail guns.

No it doesn't.


Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Again, you are comparing ships with different roles.

Again, we are in agreement that they have different roles. What you are missing is that the Ferox has a smaller damage bonus than the Brutix. The Ferox has 1.5 skill bonuses, not 2 like pretty much every other tech 1 ship. (I say pretty much every other tech 1 ship because there are three other combat battlecruisers with the same problem of having ~1.5 skill bonuses)


What about your targeting range? You are scraping the edge of your range with plutonium. Ferox has 20km over the brutix before a sebo. The Ferox out dps' your plutonium brutix with antimatter past 45km. Using plutonium, the ferox can easily push its dps well out from the brutix.

See the dps graph below. The ferox loaded with anti-matter, your brutix loaded with plutonium. You are ignoring the RANGE bonus on the hull and looking at only the numbers. The ferox applies its dps better at range, even with a lower damage bonus. THIS is the reason why the ferox is fine.

http://imgur.com/UGRgW35 Ferox with antimatter, brutix with plutonium

http://imgur.com/Q11xCHq Ferox with plutonium, brutix with plutonium

See, range bonus = damage in ranged engagements. The only time where the brutix is slightly better than the ferox is when both are using spike. The thing is though, the ferox can use another ammo type and not suffer tracking/damage penalty and still get comparable range.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#53 - 2016-01-28 20:42:00 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
What about your targeting range? You are scraping the edge of your range with plutonium.

Not even close. The Brutix has 75km targeting range. Could use a sensor booster for sniping, but you were showing short range. I could just throw on a signal amplifier also. Plenty of low slots for that.

Stitch Kaneland wrote:
See the dps graph below. The ferox loaded with anti-matter, your brutix loaded with plutonium. You are ignoring the RANGE bonus on the hull and looking at only the numbers.

I am not ignoring the range bonus. With the range bonus the Ferox has approximately the same damage for the same range as the Brutix, and only when you don't factor in drones. This is two skill bonuses on the Ferox matching one skill bonus on the Brutix, except the Brutix goes even further and has bigger drones.

How can you not see it? You even graphed it!

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#54 - 2016-01-28 20:43:05 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:


Better damage projection than Ferox due to larger number of low slots, and tank isn't that much worse. I'm not saying I would choose Brutix over Ferox for a shield fleet, but I am saying the Brutix can be shield fleeted.


Translation of your argument : The Ferox needs a buff because I can make a sub-par fleet fit out of a Brutix.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#55 - 2016-01-28 20:46:23 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Translation of your argument : The Ferox needs a buff because I can make a sub-par fleet fit out of a Brutix.

Sub-par? It matched, and that's both being shieldfleet-fit. The Ferox had 18% more EHP while the Brutix had 17% more DPS, and the Brutix is an armor-tanking solo ship.

I didn't just show the Ferox is underpowered, I blew it out of the water. The Ferox is absurdly underpowered compared to the Brutix, even so much that the Brutix can often match the Ferox in its own role despite not even being a shield or a fleet ship.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#56 - 2016-01-28 20:50:24 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Translation of your argument : The Ferox needs a buff because I can make a sub-par fleet fit out of a Brutix.

Sub-par? It matched, and that's both being shieldfleet-fit. The Ferox had 18% more EHP while the Brutix had 17% more DPS, and the Brutix is an armor-tanking solo ship.

I didn't just show the Ferox is underpowered, I blew it out of the water. The Ferox is absurdly underpowered compared to the Brutix, even so much that the Brutix can often match the Ferox in its own role despite not even being a shield or a fleet ship.


And that's why we see people fly fleet of Feroxes and not Brutix. because the Brutix
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
blew it out of the water.
right.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#57 - 2016-01-28 20:55:18 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
And that's why we see people fly fleet of Feroxes and not Brutix. because the Brutix
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
blew it out of the water.
right.

I've been playing in nullsec quite a bit lately and I really have not been seeing any Ferox fleets but once again as we have already explained repeatedly, the Ferox is better oriented toward shield fleets than the Brutix is. It could be underpowered and still be more commonly chosen for a role that fits it better than the Brutix does. So far all you guys are doing is ignoring my argument and deflecting it with statements that ignore the core point: the Ferox is underpowered overall when compared with the Brutix or Harbinger.

Shall we start comparing fits that the Brutix is designed for? Because I guarantee you the differences will not be so tiny as with these shieldfleet comparisons.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#58 - 2016-01-28 21:02:55 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
And that's why we see people fly fleet of Feroxes and not Brutix. because the Brutix
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
blew it out of the water.
right.

I've been playing in nullsec quite a bit lately and I really have not been seeing any Ferox fleets but once again as we have already explained repeatedly, the Ferox is better oriented toward shield fleets than the Brutix is. It could be underpowered and still be more commonly chosen for a role that fits it better than the Brutix does. So far all you guys are doing is ignoring my argument and deflecting it with statements that ignore the core point: the Ferox is underpowered overall when compared with the Brutix or Harbinger.

Shall we start comparing fits that the Brutix is designed for? Because I guarantee you the differences will not be so tiny as with these shieldfleet comparisons.


You are ignoring the important fact that IN GAME, the ferox IS getting used (Imperium for example had a ferox doctrine) which sure is a better testament of if a ship is properly balanced as opposed to number from EFT or word analysis of it's bonus without taking into account what really happen in the game. EVE player fly ships in 3 way, it's OP and we follow the bandwagon, it's balanced and use the right tool to do something or it's bad but we love it too much to stop flying it. The Ferox was a laughing stock until some changes were made so it sure it not a love affair.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#59 - 2016-01-28 21:05:38 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
You are ignoring the important fact that IN GAME, the ferox IS getting used

I'm not ignoring it. I live in nullsec and I'm not seeing it. Just because one alliance likes it doesn't mean it's getting used all over. I'd like to see some usage statistics on this one from CCP but until then it's your word against mine, and I really don't see any reason to believe that the Ferox is actually getting used very much for fleet PVP.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#60 - 2016-01-28 21:23:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitch Kaneland
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
You are ignoring the important fact that IN GAME, the ferox IS getting used

I'm not ignoring it. I live in nullsec and I'm not seeing it. Just because one alliance likes it doesn't mean it's getting used all over. I'd like to see some usage statistics on this one from CCP but until then it's your word against mine, and I really don't see any reason to believe that the Ferox is actually getting used very much for fleet PVP.


Ferox

https://zkillboard.com/ship/16227/top/

Brutix

https://zkillboard.com/ship/16229/top/

Looks like Pandemic Horde/Legion are using them quite frequently. As well as several other alliances. Compared to the brutix which barely breaks 100 kills per alliance.