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AFK Cloaking™: Ideas, Discussion, and Proposals

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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#5601 - 2016-01-25 15:17:43 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:

As Kaarous notes it is the most critical piece of intel. If we are going to do something in a given system, knowing if the enemy is there or not is Question Number One.


To expound upon this.

The sheer value of intel from local is not simply in being able to answer the question "are there other people here?", but in large part by being able to definitively say that there are not.

Knowing for a surety that there aren't other people around is quite simply one of, if not the most powerful tool available in this game.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#5602 - 2016-01-25 15:56:04 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
You seem to flop between it having value and not.

Regardless, that lowest level of intel - who is in system right now- is all local provides. Everything else is available generally in game, or only through third party tools.

You cannot know what they are flying through it, only guess. You cannot know who is in fleet with them, only guess. You cannot know their location without scanning. You cannot know what they are doing without going to look.

What I asked was since when was detailed info on your enemies worthless. You claimed since local, which isn't the intel being referred to and has always been in game, which makes you either a blind fool (which I don't believe in your case, unlike K) or else lying to support your dogmatic position. If you want to bald face lie, that's cool... but it means your credibility is shot either way.

As far as I am concerned the conversation ended with that statement. You simply cannot have a reasonable conversation with unreasoning people.


As Kaarous notes it is the most critical piece of intel. If we are going to do something in a given system, knowing if the enemy is there or not is Question Number One. The reason an FC is going to have a scout in there is to answer this question. Either that scout will be his alt or another player.

As for the issue of value, try this. It has value maybe even high value, but the cost is very low. Look at local maybe copy and paste to third party app.

Maybe, Mike, if something has high value it should also have high costs.


The point being we should move local over to structures that can be attacked and must be defended...yadda yadda...

All of which is completely beside the point of acquiring detailed info under a cloak at little to no risk being too much power for the risk of flying a cloaked ship, among other functions it may serve in similar safety.

Nice try at the smoke screen, but the local issue isn't what the thread is about, and it's not something we hold in contention.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#5603 - 2016-01-25 18:46:31 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:

All of which is completely beside the point of acquiring detailed info under a cloak at little to no risk being too much power for the risk of flying a cloaked ship


Roll

Well you've moved your goalposts once again. I wonder what your "point" will be next week. Or maybe it's that you're so dishonest that you will say anything to justify one more nerf.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#5604 - 2016-01-25 19:59:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
You seem to flop between it having value and not.

Regardless, that lowest level of intel - who is in system right now- is all local provides. Everything else is available generally in game, or only through third party tools.

You cannot know what they are flying through it, only guess. You cannot know who is in fleet with them, only guess. You cannot know their location without scanning. You cannot know what they are doing without going to look.

What I asked was since when was detailed info on your enemies worthless. You claimed since local, which isn't the intel being referred to and has always been in game, which makes you either a blind fool (which I don't believe in your case, unlike K) or else lying to support your dogmatic position. If you want to bald face lie, that's cool... but it means your credibility is shot either way.

As far as I am concerned the conversation ended with that statement. You simply cannot have a reasonable conversation with unreasoning people.


As Kaarous notes it is the most critical piece of intel. If we are going to do something in a given system, knowing if the enemy is there or not is Question Number One. The reason an FC is going to have a scout in there is to answer this question. Either that scout will be his alt or another player.

As for the issue of value, try this. It has value maybe even high value, but the cost is very low. Look at local maybe copy and paste to third party app.

Maybe, Mike, if something has high value it should also have high costs.


The point being we should move local over to structures that can be attacked and must be defended...yadda yadda...

All of which is completely beside the point of acquiring detailed info under a cloak at little to no risk being too much power for the risk of flying a cloaked ship, among other functions it may serve in similar safety.

Nice try at the smoke screen, but the local issue isn't what the thread is about, and it's not something we hold in contention.




Please Mike stop moving the goal posts. This one was particularly embarrassing....for you.

If you own the structure when do you think I'll get the benefit of it? Maybe when I am green, blue or maybe purple to you? Maybe? If so, then gathering intel becomes much more of a Thing™ for the hostile party.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#5605 - 2016-01-25 20:11:25 UTC
No moved goal posts. You are trying once again to reformat things I say into something you have a prepared statement for.

Local is your holy grail, not mine. You want it moved, I don't care. If it changes then we can deal with that then... But it still won't impact cloaks having too much available activity for their safety.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#5606 - 2016-01-25 20:15:52 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
No moved goal posts.


Aside from it being completely and utterly different from the many other positions you took in the thread. You keep changing your argument over and over again, with nothing even resembling consistency.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#5607 - 2016-01-25 20:23:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Mike Voidstar wrote:
No moved goal posts. You are trying once again to reformat things I say into something you have a prepared statement for.

Local is your holy grail, not mine. You want it moved, I don't care. If it changes then we can deal with that then... But it still won't impact cloaks having too much available activity for their safety.


No Mike, you are simply incoherent. I keep trying to show this too you as in my previous post.

If we move local into player owned structures…why should they benefit people hostile to you? If you set up a reaction POS, do I benefit from it? Not unless I am blue or green to you and you set up the permissions correctly (i.e. I could be blue to you, but the force field may still not let me through).

Why should any information a new intel POS share information/intel with a hostile player(s)?

So your complaint about the low cost nature of intel is rather funny considering you don’t want to make it less costly (you did read where I noted an interceptor is just as good if not better than a cloaking ship) but in fact want to make it safer for you by nerfing a class of ships you simply do not like.

Further, CCP is already on record stating that they think a good thing that these intel POS can do things like…mess up d-scan. Well, why not mess up local too, especially for the invader?

But hey, it is fine by me if you want to keep insisting on sticking your head in the sand.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#5608 - 2016-01-25 20:25:59 UTC
"Gais, local has no value, but please please pretty please don't take it away!"

Roll

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Alundil
Rolled Out
#5609 - 2016-01-27 05:11:16 UTC
I'm terribly sorry. I said I would be back on page 273. It is now page 281. I'm late. I'm ashamed.

As for those devs who have conveniently 'not posted here', they must be cloaked up in this thread, afk like, waiting for the perfect moment to.... post dank memes

I'm right behind you
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#5610 - 2016-01-27 18:29:55 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
No moved goal posts. You are trying once again to reformat things I say into something you have a prepared statement for.

Local is your holy grail, not mine. You want it moved, I don't care. If it changes then we can deal with that then... But it still won't impact cloaks having too much available activity for their safety.


No Mike, you are simply incoherent. I keep trying to show this too you as in my previous post.

If we move local into player owned structures…why should they benefit people hostile to you? If you set up a reaction POS, do I benefit from it? Not unless I am blue or green to you and you set up the permissions correctly (i.e. I could be blue to you, but the force field may still not let me through).

Why should any information a new intel POS share information/intel with a hostile player(s)?

So your complaint about the low cost nature of intel is rather funny considering you don’t want to make it less costly (you did read where I noted an interceptor is just as good if not better than a cloaking ship) but in fact want to make it safer for you by nerfing a class of ships you simply do not like.

Further, CCP is already on record stating that they think a good thing that these intel POS can do things like…mess up d-scan. Well, why not mess up local too, especially for the invader?

But hey, it is fine by me if you want to keep insisting on sticking your head in the sand.


I am not incoherent, you just insist on making what I said be about local. It isnt.

Whatever changes to local, it has nothing at all to do with being able to do things under a cloak with near absolute safety. Either remove anything not available in a station until after the target delay, or adjust the safety to represent a ship in space rather than a ship in dock.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#5611 - 2016-01-27 18:32:08 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:

I am not incoherent


Roll


Quote:

Either remove anything not available in a station until after the target delay, or adjust the safety to represent a ship in space rather than a ship in dock.


No to both. Cloaks are fine, deal with it.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
#5612 - 2016-01-28 15:55:08 UTC
Page 1: I'm cool if you remove afk cloaking but only if you also remove local.
Page 281: I'm cool if you remove afk cloaking but only if you also remove local.

200+ pages of this and carebears who just want to safely rat in nullsec without any risk.

EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
Cidanel Afuran
Grant Village
#5613 - 2016-01-28 22:44:05 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Either remove anything not available in a station until after the target delay, or adjust the safety to represent a ship in space rather than a ship in dock.


You didn't answer the last time I asked this, so let's try again. If you remove anything not available in a station when cloaked, that logically means you want to add anything that IS available in a station that isn't currently when cloaked currently.

Right?
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#5614 - 2016-01-29 03:25:02 UTC
I did answer it. You trade the missing services for mobility and the ability to have your safety anywhere in space you choose so long as it's not right next to an object.

What needs removed are those things that affect other players, like gathering detailed Intel on them, or setting them up for ambush.

The argument presented was that cloaks are meant for safety. You can't be safe in space and engaged in activities that others have a need or desire to stop.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#5615 - 2016-01-29 07:54:54 UTC
I can gather intel from a station too. Stop being bad.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#5616 - 2016-01-29 10:47:54 UTC
Right. If you recall I suggested removing capabilities not available in station, largely to support your 'save the titans!" Argument.

If the cloak is going to be safe(er) than a station, then any in space activity not available in station that another player would have a need or desire to interfere with should be removed until the end of the targeting delay.

If it's vital, it needs to be done at risk. You guys are such big proponents of risk I would have thought this would be an easy sell. Roll

If cloaked and until the end of the target delay, all you should get on your overview are permanant objects for navigation. Vision distance in space limited to 2.1 km. No scanning with probes or dscan. You get your safety right up until you hit something or choose to drop it voluntarily, and everyone is equally safe from you. Unlike now.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#5617 - 2016-01-29 11:11:45 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Right. If you recall I suggested removing capabilities not available in station, largely to support your 'save the titans!" Argument.


Let it go, your strawman is preposterous. Recall you're the one who tried to suggest people hunt miners with the same obsession as super hunters.

Mike Voidstar wrote:
If the cloak is going to be safe(er) than a station, then any in space activity not available in station that another player would have a need or desire to interfere with should be removed until the end of the targeting delay.


Thank god then, that a cloak is not that safe.

Mike Voidstar wrote:
If it's vital, it needs to be done at risk. You guys are such big proponents of risk I would have thought this would be an easy sell. Roll

If cloaked and until the end of the target delay, all you should get on your overview are permanant objects for navigation. Vision distance in space limited to 2.1 km. No scanning with probes or dscan. You get your safety right up until you hit something or choose to drop it voluntarily, and everyone is equally safe from you. Unlike now.


Yes, let's break all scouting, everywhere in eve. What a glorious idea.

Do you ever even undock? Sure as hell doesn't seem like it. I mean honestly, I'd lay good money you've not spent more than 15 minutes of your entire eve career outside of highsec, if you do even undock. Your lack of understanding around mechanics, scouting, fleet behaviour and the metagame is resulting in your suggestions being completely and totally game breaking as well as essentially incoherent.

Your current "idea" (and I use the term loosely) for example: Epic gate camp buffs. Completely and totally broken scouting. 100% safe ratting, risk reward shattered.

And all in the name of solving an attitude problem via mechanics, because anomaly squatters can't possibly cope with a neutral in local.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#5618 - 2016-01-29 13:33:12 UTC
All in the name of an idea that prevents people from doing PvP activities against their enemies from a completely secure, unknowable position.

It has nothing to do with null sec at all. It's anywhere and everywhere in EVE.


It does not break scouting. It fixes it. If it's vital it should be at risk.

Massive buff to gate camps? So *only* cloaked ships can make it through? Does that not sound like there is a problem elsewhere to you? Because it does to me. Right around the time a single module starts becoming the go to device for entire swaths of playstyles, especially PvP playstyles, it's time to review the balance of that module.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#5619 - 2016-01-29 15:35:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Morrigan LeSante
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Massive buff to gate camps? So *only* cloaked ships can make it through? Does that not sound like there is a problem elsewhere to you? Because it does to me. Right around the time a single module starts becoming the go to device for entire swaths of playstyles, especially PvP playstyles, it's time to review the balance of that module.



And once again your seemingly limitless ignorance for basic mechanics betrays you.

I'm sure you'll instantly post "Well I didn't mean that" or "It can have an exception", but the very fact you have not even considered and acknowledged it is beyond damning.


One more time. Go learn how the game you're so hell bent on breaking actually works, please.



Oh and prop mods also are mandatory on 99% of PvP fits. I suppose they're all broken too?
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#5620 - 2016-01-29 15:48:02 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Right. If you recall I suggested removing capabilities not available in station, largely to support your 'save the titans!" Argument.

If the cloak is going to be safe(er) than a station, then any in space activity not available in station that another player would have a need or desire to interfere with should be removed until the end of the targeting delay.

If it's vital, it needs to be done at risk. You guys are such big proponents of risk I would have thought this would be an easy sell. Roll

If cloaked and until the end of the target delay, all you should get on your overview are permanant objects for navigation. Vision distance in space limited to 2.1 km. No scanning with probes or dscan. You get your safety right up until you hit something or choose to drop it voluntarily, and everyone is equally safe from you. Unlike now.



Well at least Mike is not somewhat more honest...he is finally coming out that he wants to nerf ALL cloaks.

This notion is ridiculous because it actually goes directly against the notion of what cloaking ships were designed to do.

Quote:
Name: Pilgrim
Hull: Arbitrator
Role: Force Recon Ship

Force recon ships are the cruiser-class equivalent of covert ops frigates. While not as resilient as combat recon ships, they are nonetheless able to do their job as reconaissance vessels very effectively, due in no small part to their ability to interface with covert ops cloaking devices and set up cynosural fields for incoming capital ships.


And what does reconnaissance mean?

Quote:
re·con·nais·sance
/rəˈkänəsəns/
noun

  • military observation of a region to locate an enemy or ascertain strategic features.
    • "an excellent aircraft for low-level reconnaissance"
  • synonyms: preliminary survey, survey, exploration, observation, investigation, examination, inspection; More
    • preliminary surveying or research.
    "conducting client reconnaissance"


So what you are suggesting is directly in conflict with the very intent of this class of ships.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online