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Dual weapons firing dual ammo
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Dai Kyoko
Battle-Axe
Diplomatic Incidents.
#1 - 2016-01-25 22:28:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Dai Kyoko
So after doing some thinking on the fact that there are quite a few "Dual" turrets in the game and noticing that there is an ammo use per shot parameter given to all turrets. I began to wonder how come Dual weapons dont fire dual rounds simultaneously?
This would add a very interesting aspect to the game especially if they could be balanced right. It would also allow for a broader use of Weapons in the game instead of everyone just training to use the biggest gun.

IF any one has some ideas to improve off of this please feel free to add it below.

IDEAS:

Dual Variants should provide:

Less Sig
Use Smaller Charges
Track better (Essentially able to hit smaller moving ships)
Huge DPS cut essentially making them only viable for smaller class ships.

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Poxs62
StarTrucks
Prometheus Allegiance
#2 - 2016-01-25 22:37:21 UTC
I would flesh this out a bit

for instance what about quad weapons, then how about ammo, consider the 3500m quad siege, woudl that then fire 4* xl ammo per volley, so would you then have to multiply the RoF, or could/would you do that for each extra 'barrel' you then reduce the ammo size, so instead of XL it would fire L, but then the RoF would increase to reduce the possibility of DPS etc.

For eg on Dual , unless the size was small in which case double rounds but 2x the RoF but any other size would go from L>M / M>S

Just some added questions to consider. Otherwise you could end up a cruiser with 4x the volley damage
Shallanna Yassavi
qwertz corp
#3 - 2016-01-25 22:38:38 UTC
They're already not very good.
Cost per shot wouldn't be very easy to balance, because it's not a big factor in PvP fights, but is very important for grinding through rats.

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Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2016-01-25 22:43:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Dai Kyoko wrote:
IF any one has some ideas to improve off of this please feel free to add it below.

I've been working for years now on a huge rebalancing of EVE.


Within it I have changed the turrets to have 3 size variations within a size class (I.E. electron, ion, or neutron blaster), but I've changed them names, so it'd be more like:
Light Blaster
Dual Light Blaster
Quad Light Blaster

The dual fires 2 rounds and the quad fires 4 rounds per shot. As the bigger variants have more damage per second and fewer shots per second, they naturally have a much higher damage per round, making them both more powerful and more ammo-efficient. But in my version, they actually get less damage per round expended, which is an additional increase to their cost of use. This makes the weaker variants cheaper to fire.


I made artillery a little different--it has a much greater variance in rate of fire, but actually maintain the same DPS, so the big one has the highest alpha while the small one is more like a normal long-range turret. So, to match the huge rate of fire differences:
Light Artillery
Triple Light Artillery
9x Light Artillery

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Dai Kyoko
Battle-Axe
Diplomatic Incidents.
#5 - 2016-01-25 23:07:48 UTC
Great Ideas guys! I especially like the fact that Dual weapons should use smaller ammo than its counterparts. Makes sense and would definitely make them more viable for small ship classes

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Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#6 - 2016-01-25 23:09:02 UTC
The whole 'turn the dual/quad turrets into turret versions of rapid launchers' thing has been suggested repeatedly...
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#7 - 2016-01-25 23:25:19 UTC
Dai Kyoko wrote:
So after doing some thinking...


Ouuuh, you shouldn't have. Well, you didn't long enough because if you did you would come to realize Wolf-Rayet and thought to yourself - oh YES.

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Dai Kyoko
Battle-Axe
Diplomatic Incidents.
#8 - 2016-01-25 23:29:00 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
Dai Kyoko wrote:
So after doing some thinking...


Ouuuh, you shouldn't have. Well, you didn't long enough because if you did you would come to realize Wolf-Rayet and thought to yourself - oh YES.


Well you would size down the ammo charge and tweak the dps ofcourse.

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Thor Kerrigan
Guardians of Asceticism
#9 - 2016-01-26 00:09:25 UTC
Isn't the main purpose of these guns to trade DPS for fitting requirements?

Still, they could be revisited by increasing ammo consumption to the benefit of ... application maybe? This is basically what RMLs do, trading DPS for better application and fitting.

That being said, smaller guns "show info" better tracking, but when you graph them in EFT and consider the optimal+falloff you observe that smaller guns don't actually ever out-DPS their bigger counterparts - In fact, they appear to follow roughly the same applied DPS curve initially but drop faster as range increases. I observed this across a couple different guns, regadless of target ship size or speed save maybe a couple extreme cases. I'd love to see myself proven wrong here, but as it stands, it appears the statement "at least my smaller guns will track better" is misleading. The DPS drop is actually steep enough that at no range does your smaller gun out-DPS the bigger ones.

In any case, this could be revisited so smaller guns actually do out-DPS bigger guns when shooting smaller targets.

(To try this out, load up your standard cookie-cutter 425mm and 220mm Vagabond and graph both their DPS on a frigate. Compare with varying speeds, angle and size)
Dai Kyoko
Battle-Axe
Diplomatic Incidents.
#10 - 2016-01-26 00:18:50 UTC
Thor Kerrigan wrote:
Isn't the main purpose of these guns to trade DPS for fitting requirements?

Still, they could be revisited by increasing ammo consumption to the benefit of ... application maybe? This is basically what RMLs do, trading DPS for better application and fitting.

That being said, smaller guns "show info" better tracking, but when you graph them in EFT and consider the optimal+falloff you observe that smaller guns don't actually ever out-DPS their bigger counterparts - In fact, they appear to follow roughly the same applied DPS curve initially but drop faster as range increases. I observed this across a couple different guns, regadless of target ship size or speed save maybe a couple extreme cases. I'd love to see myself proven wrong here, but as it stands, it appears the statement "at least my smaller guns will track better" is misleading. The DPS drop is actually steep enough that at no range does your smaller gun out-DPS the bigger ones.

In any case, this could be revisited so smaller guns actually do out-DPS bigger guns when shooting smaller targets.

(To try this out, load up your standard cookie-cutter 425mm and 220mm Vagabond and graph both their DPS on a frigate. Compare with varying speeds, angle and size)


You have the right idea as I was hoping a couple things could change with the dual variants

Dual Variants should provide:

Less Sig
Use Smaller Charges
Track better (Essentially able to hit smaller ships)
Huge DPS cut essentially making them only viable for smaller class ships.



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Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2016-01-26 00:35:19 UTC
Thor Kerrigan wrote:
That being said, smaller guns "show info" better tracking, but when you graph them in EFT and consider the optimal+falloff you observe that smaller guns don't actually ever out-DPS their bigger counterparts - In fact, they appear to follow roughly the same applied DPS curve initially but drop faster as range increases.

You're right, in fact the drop is too great to justify the reduced fitting cost when you consider that often they have worse application than the bigger turrets of the next size class down, which cost next to nothing in terms of fitting comparatively. While they usually still have higher DPS they may have even smaller range, along with far lower tracking.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#12 - 2016-01-26 01:47:47 UTC
Dai Kyoko wrote:

This would add a very interesting aspect to the game especially if they could be balanced right. It would also allow for a broader use of Weapons in the game instead of everyone just training to use the biggest gun.


You sure?
Using multiples of small ammo instead of larger ammo has no significant difference when it comes to cargo space or economics and everything else you want these turrets to do can be done without changing ammo size.

The ONLY reason rapid launchers have to use smaller charges is because missile charges determine alpha, range and application.

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Dai Kyoko
Battle-Axe
Diplomatic Incidents.
#13 - 2016-01-26 01:54:21 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Dai Kyoko wrote:

This would add a very interesting aspect to the game especially if they could be balanced right. It would also allow for a broader use of Weapons in the game instead of everyone just training to use the biggest gun.


You sure?
Using multiples of small ammo instead of larger ammo has no significant difference when it comes to cargo space or economics and everything else you want these turrets to do can be done without changing ammo size.

The ONLY reason rapid launchers have to use smaller charges is because missile charges determine alpha, range and application.


This is why the weapon itself needs to be changed.

High effectiveness vs Smaller class ships while being inferior to same class ships.

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Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#14 - 2016-01-26 02:04:01 UTC
To what?
You could simply take an electron blaster and buff its tracking.

Job done. No need for gimmicks.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

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Dai Kyoko
Battle-Axe
Diplomatic Incidents.
#15 - 2016-01-26 04:09:24 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
To what?
You could simply take an electron blaster and buff its tracking.

Job done. No need for gimmicks.


lol If only it was that easy :)

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Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#16 - 2016-01-26 16:53:33 UTC
She says without an ounce of explanation...

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

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Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#17 - 2016-01-26 20:46:30 UTC
Dai Kyoko wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
To what?
You could simply take an electron blaster and buff its tracking.

Job done. No need for gimmicks.


lol If only it was that easy :)


It is that easy.