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Sojourn
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Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#241 - 2016-01-23 05:59:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Samira Kernher
The Jove gave us capsuleers, but the choice to incorporate cloning and turn them into the unstoppable monsters we have now was our own twisted design.
Mizhara Del'thul
Kyn'aldrnari
#242 - 2016-01-23 06:13:46 UTC
I think her point is that everything we've done with the tech was predicted by the Jove.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#243 - 2016-01-23 08:17:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Aria Jenneth
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:
I think her point is that everything we've done with the tech was predicted by the Jove.


Probably not everything. The Jove are, or were, like us-- just human.

The cloning thing, though ... that could have been seen coming a fair few light years away, especially if the Jove already had the technology and just didn't bestow it on anybody. The rest of what we ended up like can probably just be traced to a purposefully lax regulatory scheme that sets us up to function as de facto tiny sovereign nations.

I'd love to know how anybody talked the empires into allowing that. On the face of it, it's an insane move for any of the four empires. But, well, obviously, someone did talk them into it. I basically can't think of a better candidate.

Miz, about "faith": I do think I have a bit more faith in authority than you do, probably; I come from that sort of culture. That's not to say that I think people should just do whatever they're told, but ... I guess the basic assumption's sort of tilted that way.

Also, I've been explaining my supporting evidence. It's not nothing; actually I think I've got a fair bit. A series of historical facts and strangenesses, all handily covered by a single unifying explanation-- that's circumstantial evidence.

What I don't think I have is proof, and unless CONCORD coughs up its working papers from the formative stages of its capsuleer regulatory scheme, I don't know that I'll ever have such a thing. It's speculation. Not uninformed or baseless speculation, though.

"Shepherds" of humanity is farther than I'd go. But so is "outside intervention." The Jove weren't part of our gate network, but they were part of New Eden's politics. Your people might not have been able to revolt, at least successfully, if not for Vak'Atioth. ... And considering that the Jove suffered losses, there, as well, they had a lot of reason to take an interest in New Eden's politics.

It's quite possible that we're actually supposed to keep the empires busy so that they won't threaten (whatever is left of) the Jove. That's not mutually exclusive with the other thing; good plans tend to have a lot of reasons to pursue them, not just one.

As for dishonesty and puppeteering ... if you don't believe in the Amarrian god (which I'm guessing, like me, you don't), you do realize that means the oldest of the four empires is built around a brilliant, elaborate story serving as a focal point for an entire civilization. It's been working well enough to keep the civilization comparatively quite stable for centuries and centuries.

If it's a lie, it's an extremely successful one. Which sort of puts your beliefs (faith?) in inevitable crumbling in doubt.

Here's another: "Human rights." ... it's a constructive lie. There's no reason to think rights exist anywhere but in human minds, but they're the mortar that holds a certain worldview together-- and thus maintains a nation's integrity.

"Tribe."

"Voluval."

"Signpost."

"Law."

"Word."

The world's a maze of illusion-- functional illusion, and the other kind. One helps us navigate our reality. ("I exist, and am hungry. I need to eat something.") The other conceals it or misleads us about its nature in ways that lead to harm.

.

.

.

And perhaps that is what "respectfully" usually means in your culture. In the one I'm staying in, and have mostly adapted my language to, it means something a little different.

... so ... since it doesn't mean the same thing to you, I'll adjust my language for courtesy's sake. I'll pretend that the word isn't crossing my mind and that I'm not having to erase it from time to time. I'll manipulate and lie to you. Maybe I'll even act like I agree.

That's what manners and courtesy are, after all-- ways of padding or concealing truth's more jagged edges. It's a way of avoiding needless conflict. If we were all really honest, I doubt we could stand each other.

I don't mean you and I. I mean people. But maybe us, too.

Honest conflict strikes me as good for feeling virtuous while getting people killed. That's the honest truth.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#244 - 2016-01-23 09:12:58 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:
Capsuleers without cloning and only permitted chained into the direct service of the Imperial Navy would be a start.


That would lead to the death of the Empire, in all rationality, though. How can you be even remotely competitive when the opposition does not have to train new pod pilots constantly (which costs millions and is a scarcity)?
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#245 - 2016-01-23 10:05:52 UTC
By finding a better way, one that doesn't go against God or reason.
Arnulf Ogunkoya
Clan Ogunkoya
Electus Matari
#246 - 2016-01-23 11:10:42 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:
By finding a better way, one that doesn't go against God or reason.


Is there a scripture that indicates divine displeasure with capsule piloting or cloning? There's the Godflesh doctrine but I've always figured that has more to do with stopping one generation of nobility installing themselves as permanent rulers of the Empire and thus resisting any needed change that they find unpleasant.

Regards, Arnulf Ogunkoya.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#247 - 2016-01-23 12:34:13 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:
By finding a better way, one that doesn't go against God or reason.


But until you find one..?
Maria Daphiti
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#248 - 2016-01-23 13:50:32 UTC
Arnulf Ogunkoya wrote:
Samira Kernher wrote:
By finding a better way, one that doesn't go against God or reason.


Is there a scripture that indicates divine displeasure with capsule piloting or cloning? There's the Godflesh doctrine but I've always figured that has more to do with stopping one generation of nobility installing themselves as permanent rulers of the Empire and thus resisting any needed change that they find unpleasant.



No there isn't . The Theology Council has yet to weigh in.

There are different schools of thought. Lieutenant Kernher represents one pretty major one. My mother and Sir Shutaq subscribe to others...
Mizhara Del'thul
Kyn'aldrnari
#249 - 2016-01-23 16:26:40 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Also, I've been explaining my supporting evidence. It's not nothing; actually I think I've got a fair bit. A series of historical facts and strangenesses, all handily covered by a single unifying explanation-- that's circumstantial evidence.

What I don't think I have is proof, and unless CONCORD coughs up its working papers from the formative stages of its capsuleer regulatory scheme, I don't know that I'll ever have such a thing. It's speculation. Not uninformed speculation, though.


I would go so far as conjecture, perhaps. You don't have circumstantial evidence, because these events listed could support any number of hypothetical scenarios varying wildly from yours, so the only thing they're evidence of is "huh, that's weird." You're taking some fairly large leaps of faith here when the only honest thing to say here is "We have no farkin' idea. We'll need more to find out.". It's perfectly allright to say we don't know when we don't know.

Quote:
As for dishonesty and puppeteering ... if you don't believe in the Amarrian god (which I'm guessing, like me, you don't), you do realize that means the oldest of the four empires is built around a brilliant, elaborate story serving as a focal point for an entire civilization. It's been working well enough to keep the civilization comparatively quite stable for centuries and centuries.

If it's a lie, it's an extremely successful one. Which sort of puts your beliefs (faith?) in inevitable crumbling in doubt.


Does it? The Empire is the most stagnated entity in New Eden at this point. It has had the greatest potential of all four major nations in terms of territory, resources and unified purpose and it has still stagnated to the point where advancement of humanity is heretical. New thinking is anathema and adherence to morally and ethically bankrupt practices and traditions is revered as good and right.

Even in all this, they manage to be led by people like Karsoth and lose territory to "King Khanid", then actually have to slap on a mask and pretend they're okay with it when he makes a bid for the throne in their gladiator fights. They foster religious splinter cults and crazies, and managed to not only fail to conquer a nation but create a never-ending conflict in the process. A conflict that they have the power to end, but won't, until the cluster has burned to the ground.

Working? That machine has thrown more gears and had so many spanners introduced to its sensitive parts that it's a spectacularly catastrophic disintegration waiting to happen. How anyone can look at New Eden today and say the Empire is stable must have had their fingers in their ears, humming real loud for over a decade now.

Quote:
Here's another: "Human rights." ... it's a constructive lie. There's no reason to think rights exist anywhere but in human minds, but they're the mortar that holds a certain worldview together-- and thus maintains a nation's integrity.
"Word."

...

The world's a maze of illusion-- functional illusion, and the other kind. One helps us navigate our reality. ("I exist, and am hungry. I need to eat something.") The other conceals it or misleads us about its nature in ways that lead to harm.


There's a difference in honestly and truthfully adhering to constructed illusions, while acknowledging that they are constructed illusions, and the dishonesty in manipulation and pulling strings. None of your examples above have anything even remotely in common with your jovian puppetmasters hypothesis. The latter being dishonest manipulation, and all the formers being honest social constructs everyone involved (barring braindamage or chronic stupidity) already knows are societal constructs we adhere to for a working society. It doesn't require dishonesty or manipulation.

Quote:
And perhaps that is what "respectfully" usually means in your culture. In the one I'm staying in, and have mostly adapted my language to, it means something a little different.

That's what manners and courtesy are, after all-- ways of padding or concealing truth's more jagged edges. It's a way of avoiding needless conflict. If we were all really honest, I doubt we could stand each other.


I'm referring to the culture I was raised in, the Amarr Empire, where excessive politeness is nine times out of ten a sign that someone's itching to tear out your trachea with their teeth, but it'd be unseemly. It's not about avoiding needless conflict, it's about forestalling it until you're in position behind them with a dagger and a hood, as far as the Empire's high society is concerned.

I'd respond a bit more, but these boards has some incredibly restraining limits on formatting and word count. I assume this is the case because they want to avoid any subject being delved into in sufficient depth to contain nuance and complexity, which'd frighten and confuse your average psychopath egg.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#250 - 2016-01-23 16:35:44 UTC
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:

Does it? The Empire is the most stagnated entity in New Eden at this point. It has had the greatest potential of all four major nations in terms of territory,

Most stagnated nation are you, tribal dogs.
I don't know why CONCORD even allows existence of such primitive species. Just die in a fire and shut up.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#251 - 2016-01-23 18:10:52 UTC
Advancement of humanity being heretical, and new thinking anathema? What?
Arnulf Ogunkoya
Clan Ogunkoya
Electus Matari
#252 - 2016-01-23 19:10:34 UTC
Maria Daphiti wrote:
Arnulf Ogunkoya wrote:
Samira Kernher wrote:
By finding a better way, one that doesn't go against God or reason.


Is there a scripture that indicates divine displeasure with capsule piloting or cloning? There's the Godflesh doctrine but I've always figured that has more to do with stopping one generation of nobility installing themselves as permanent rulers of the Empire and thus resisting any needed change that they find unpleasant.



No there isn't . The Theology Council has yet to weigh in.

There are different schools of thought. Lieutenant Kernher represents one pretty major one. My mother and Sir Shutaq subscribe to others...


Thankyou. I gathered that the Lieutenant holds one of many views. But I was under the impression that to make the case for such a view in the Empire some sort of scriptural basis for it would be needed.

Regards, Arnulf Ogunkoya.
Arnulf Ogunkoya
Clan Ogunkoya
Electus Matari
#253 - 2016-01-23 19:13:17 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:
Advancement of humanity being heretical, and new thinking anathema? What?


You know that leads me to another question.

What is the process for a new piece of writing to be declared a part of scripture? The last addition that comes to mind would be the Pax, yes?

Regards, Arnulf Ogunkoya.
morion
Lighting Build
#254 - 2016-01-23 19:40:33 UTC
Pax Amarria

Pax Amarria was good for burning ...
Utari Onzo
Escalated.
OnlyFleets.
#255 - 2016-01-23 20:03:01 UTC
Arnulf Ogunkoya wrote:
Lyn Farel wrote:
Advancement of humanity being heretical, and new thinking anathema? What?


You know that leads me to another question.

What is the process for a new piece of writing to be declared a part of scripture? The last addition that comes to mind would be the Pax, yes?


As far as I'm aware, the Pax Amarria has not yet been declared Scripture.

It's a kind of treatise, outlining the thinking and vision of the late Emperor Heideran VII (God bless him) that has not yet been raised to the level of Scripture by the Theology Council. It's a piece of work I have personally studied and certainly has shaped my own way of thinking.

That said, the writings of Emperors carries some amount of weight and respect in the Empire.

"Face the enemy as a solid wall For faith is your armor And through it, the enemy will find no breach Wrap your arms around the enemy For faith is your fire And with it, burn away his evil"
Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
#256 - 2016-01-23 20:40:02 UTC
Arnulf Ogunkoya wrote:
Maria Daphiti wrote:
Arnulf Ogunkoya wrote:
Samira Kernher wrote:
By finding a better way, one that doesn't go against God or reason.


Is there a scripture that indicates divine displeasure with capsule piloting or cloning? There's the Godflesh doctrine but I've always figured that has more to do with stopping one generation of nobility installing themselves as permanent rulers of the Empire and thus resisting any needed change that they find unpleasant.



No there isn't . The Theology Council has yet to weigh in.

There are different schools of thought. Lieutenant Kernher represents one pretty major one. My mother and Sir Shutaq subscribe to others...


Thankyou. I gathered that the Lieutenant holds one of many views. But I was under the impression that to make the case for such a view in the Empire some sort of scriptural basis for it would be needed.

One of those basis is Book of Missions 5:14.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#257 - 2016-01-24 05:13:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Aria Jenneth
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:
You don't have circumstantial evidence, because these events listed could support any number of hypothetical scenarios varying wildly from yours, so the only thing they're evidence of is "huh, that's weird."


Miz, in order to persuade me that this is true, saying it isn't enough. You need to actually at least sketch those scenarios.

"Evidence" is anything that makes something more or less likely to be true. It's not a very hard definition to meet. So, yeah, I do think I have evidence.

Just, maybe not compelling. Maybe not even very strong. But it's there.

Quote:
The Empire is the most stagnated entity in New Eden at this point. It has had the greatest potential of all four major nations in terms of territory, resources and unified purpose and it has still stagnated to the point where advancement of humanity is heretical. New thinking is anathema and adherence to morally and ethically bankrupt practices and traditions is revered as good and right.


Questions of ethics, I'll leave alone.

About stagnation and instability: I used to think similarly. That's one major area where I had to adjust my thinking. I'll pass on reprinting "Sojourn: The Amarr" here, though.

Quote:
There's a difference in honestly and truthfully adhering to constructed illusions, while acknowledging that they are constructed illusions, and the dishonesty in manipulation and pulling strings. None of your examples above have anything even remotely in common with your jovian puppetmasters hypothesis. The latter being dishonest manipulation, and all the formers being honest social constructs everyone involved (barring braindamage or chronic stupidity) already knows are societal constructs we adhere to for a working society. It doesn't require dishonesty or manipulation.


Really?

Maybe you know that there are no such things as inherent human rights outside of a social contract. Have you expressed that idea to the Gallente, though?

Federal elites might sometimes know that they are peddling a fiction; the street certainly doesn't. They talk about the freedoms they adore as the birthright of every human living-- as though the universe took their side, and willed freedom and democracy for all of humankind, in pretty sharp defiance of the patterns of history (democracies are historically rare).

And, actually, the whole thing works better if the elites aren't in on the joke, either. If the vast majority takes the useful lie seriously, it really does take on a reality of its own.

Sort of like a religion.

(Do the Matari tribes really, actually understand that ideas like "Tribe" and "Voluval" are social fictions? Really?)

(If you think chronic stupidity is needed to fail to grasp that "Signpost" and "Word" are social fictions, you seem to make "chronically stupid" a really easy thing to be.)

Quote:
I'm referring to the culture I was raised in, the Amarr Empire, where excessive politeness is nine times out of ten a sign that someone's itching to tear out your trachea with their teeth, but it'd be unseemly. It's not about avoiding needless conflict, it's about forestalling it until you're in position behind them with a dagger and a hood, as far as the Empire's high society is concerned.


Alternate meaning:

"I'm a small, curious, heathen foreigner who's going to persist in asking impertinent questions and saying uncomfortable things, but isn't actually trying to get in your face about it, so please don't take offense, your lordship."

Since, as noted, heathen, it also gets important in addressing basically any Amarrian. It goes a ways towards keeping me out of trouble when I say things social superiors might not be expecting to hear, or put up with, from a person of lower rank. In other words, it's me avoiding offending my hosts in spite of not always being a very good fit for Amarrian society.

Diplomacy.

(And it's still diplomacy in your example-- in the sense of continuing to placate an enemy until you're in a position where you can stop placating. That, also, avoids needless conflict-- until it's the right time for it.)

In your personal case, though, "respectfully" does seem misplaced..
Mizhara Del'thul
Kyn'aldrnari
#258 - 2016-01-24 05:28:54 UTC
Well that got interestingly hostile, if I'm reading it right. I'll refrain from responding just in case I am reading it right, as this is one of those threads that are somewhat worth keeping on the rails.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#259 - 2016-01-24 07:02:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Aria Jenneth
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:
Well that got interestingly hostile, if I'm reading it right. I'll refrain from responding just in case I am reading it right, as this is one of those threads that are somewhat worth keeping on the rails.


Well ... usually I'm careful to keep fleeting thoughts behind my teeth and approach things with the goal of gathering more information. I'm going to say some honest things, now, and hopefully you won't hate me for it.

You put me in kind of a bind, Miz. It's hard not to resent it.

You seem to want me to speak informally, speak genuinely. ... but it's hard for me to be both genuine, and informal-- since I kind of have to force myself not to be formal, especially around people I don't know very well.

I often like talking to you, but you make me really tired.

You believe in honesty, but honesty is often a jagged thing. You're aggressive and harsh. You say nasty things and then seem unaware you've said them. You leave a trail of grinding teeth and act like that's other people's problem, even if you caused it.

Most of the time, I do respect you. It's easier if you let me say it, though. You seem to keep trying to persuade me to act a little more like you.

... I don't want to, though.

Calling people stupid isn't something I'd normally do. I don't think of myself as better than people. I'm clever, but being clever without being wise is dangerous. I can see the illusions, but it's rarely clear what the proper path might be.

I really believe in integrity, though. It's less about just telling the truth, whether it's appropriate or not, and ... I guess, more about the sort of person I want to be: someone dependable. Someone who keeps her word. Someone worth trusting. Someone who sees with clear eyes, and who acts appropriately and with restraint. Someone who shows discretion. Someone thoughtful and sincere.

I take my integrity seriously, maybe more than is sensible. But I do have it, and I won't let it go. It's the only part of me that I'm really sure of. It tells me who I am. If I lose it, I'll still be lost in a vale of illusion ...

... only then, I won't even have myself anymore.

Maybe, at the end, I'll have to let go even of that. Maybe wise people are all tricksters.

I hope not, though.
Mizhara Del'thul
Kyn'aldrnari
#260 - 2016-01-24 08:01:38 UTC
Aaaah, now that was a joy to read and I certainly don't hate you for it. I don't think I'll ever be capable of hating someone over mere words, even when 'mere' words often have more power to affect New Eden than the mightiest Titan in our skies. In this case, it's rather... endearing, if you'll pardon me being somewhat creepy about it.

I do apologize if I've actually put you in a bind there. I haven't sought to have you change for my sake, as much as I've simply wanted you to know my view on various aspects of yourself you put on public display. If anything, never let anyone change you once you've come to terms with who you are. Deal with what people think and say about you in a simple manner; be you, whether they like it or not. I honestly think we'd get along swimmingly if we both simply accept what one thinks of the other and go on with our business.

What I want from you should be irrelevant. Give whatever you feel comfortable with and draw the line there.

Yes, honesty is a jagged and harsh thing. Perhaps that is unsuitable to many people, but I can't make New Eden a different place, nor be anyone but who I am. I am harsh because someone has to be. Someone on these sanity-forsaken boards has to speak the damn truth or it'll drown in idiocy, lies and mewling. Yes, it's arrogant and narcissistic to claim that as my role here, but I'm hardly going to apologize for that given the general quality of the psychotic eggs cracking and scrambling on this skillet.

The difference between us is less than one'd think, I'd wager. We're both clever. We both have wisdom of sorts, as wisdom is simply something gained from having bad days and surviving them. I think we've both scored quite higher than average on that scale, yes? The difference is, while we see illusions and the path remains foggy nonetheless, I forge ahead to find it and you stand back to get a clearer view. We both end up somewhere in the same general area, in the end. You with a larger overview, and me with a close-up view.

That is, if you'll pardon the fuzzy and fluffy metaphor.

I will tell you and New Eden a little secret though, as a Volur and honest woman both. Wise people are indeed tricksters. The lot of them, or us, or whoever you wish to label as such. We're con-artists and frauds. When a man or woman of New Eden comes upon a wise person and seek their aid and wisdom, they are given something very simple. The ability to figure it out on their own, while the wise person simply asks pertinent questions or points them in the right direction. A little nudge here and a slight guiding hand there, and they'll navigate their own illusions and find their own path, and they'll think it was all the wisdom of the wise one.

Even those with the least faith and belief wants to think someone out there's got it all figured out. That problems they face have solutions and are easily handled. That someone's in control and everything's working out according to some form of plan. In the Empire, this is religious territory. In the Tribes, it's a mix of family hierarchy and spirituality. In the State, it's the corporations, markets and boards. In the Federation, it's the government and the collective power of a free people, etc. All with endless little variations that still end up the same way. Someone's got this stuff handled. Someone can help. This is what I saw when I read your notion of what the Jove were trying to do. Someone looking for that.

That is what a wise person really is. Just another helpless idiot among all the other idiots, but they are capable of giving others what they need. The idea that they are better, whether they say it outright or humbly deny it. I say it outright and to some that is exactly what they need. What I can give them. To others, it's infuriating and insulting, and they seek your kind of wisdom and thoughts.

I may leave a trail of grinding teeth, but many among them needed that. I don't need them to like me or even respect me, as long as they've gotten what they needed from me.

So don't consider what you think I want you to be. Be yourself. Someone out there needs that from you.

I think this may be the most arrogant and self-aggrandizing post I've ever written in my life while still implying heavily I'm just another idiot.