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Project Discovery is now active on Singularity

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Author
Tiberius StarGazer
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#21 - 2016-01-23 00:51:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Tiberius StarGazer
Got testing it out and so far it's pretty neat! Can imagine using this a lot while waiting for form ups or to Spring a trap or sitting in a pos!

So far my only main criticisms is the number of examples provided are some what limited. I will often find myself looking at a sample and be comparing two possible options - but not really definitively being able to decide which one to use. This seems to be reflected in some of the results. On the hover over for each one where it gives you an example image would it be possible to make this into a sideshow so it goes through a number of images? This will help people get a better idea for the variations of a particular example.

Secondly, some of the sample images are shown with filters set - this can somewhat confuse matters as you have to read the text, set the filter and then decide. If a particular example is best seen under that filter - can the button then be hilighted to indicate that when you have the filter selected? Or, when you select a filter can the example image also change to match?
TigerShadowclaw
Armageddon Enterprises
#22 - 2016-01-23 01:33:06 UTC
I don't think anybody has mentioned this yet, but I would like to see an option to "pop out" the Tissue Sample image such that you can see the whole "zoomed in" image at once. I know that people will be using this as an easy way to get free LP and ISK but I think that this would make it easier for the people that are legitimately trying to identify things.
Un Lapin
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#23 - 2016-01-23 01:41:40 UTC
Tiberius StarGazer wrote:
On the hover over for each one where it gives you an example image would it be possible to make this into a sideshow so it goes through a number of images?


Definitely like this idea +1
Chillya
Sanctuary of Shadows
Dock Workers
#24 - 2016-01-23 02:37:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Chillya
Some feedback:

1. Definitely agree with the people above that we need more solved examples. Moreover, we should have examples for both "single" elements and their combinations. I also would not mind more expansive desctiptions (possibly in a separate window?).

2. It would be amazing if the examples either provided several identical samples with different filters enabled, or, better yet, would switch their filter according to the currently enabled filter.
An option to switch between example and sample filter synching would be even better.

3. Maybe it's personal, but could we get a bigger window for this?

4. Is it possible to have just separate "blue" and "red" filters for examining the cells' structure better without the green-marked elements?

5. UI: is it really nessessary to "blink" all the hexagons on the right after every filter change?

6. UI: if you click the tutorial button in the lower left several times, you have to confrm the start of the tutorial for each mouse click.

7. Any plans to add right mousebutton functionality?

8. What is the current update rate plan for unsolved samples answers on SISI (so that we can see how our accuracy is updated)?

9. To everyone suggesting LP rewards for certain margins of accuracy: do at least 40 of these and let's wait for our ratings to properly update first (the starting "calibration" is fine and dandy, but let's see how good we actually are).

Just some additional thoughts on 1: the more examples you could provide, the better (both single elements and combination). After an hour and a half of several tutorials and regular voting, I'm still not sure about the visual distinction between, say, cytoplasm and plasma membrane. And I have positively no idea how to identify focal adhesions. I wouldn't mind a more expansive tutorial (15 steps?).

Overall, I feel very excited about this feature.
Morwen Lagann
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#25 - 2016-01-23 02:46:30 UTC
Spent 4 hours playing with this on a twitch stream earlier. Generally pretty happy with it. It's fun and simple, and gives me something to do actively rather than sit and spin my ship. Best of all it can be done anywhere as long as I'm logged into the client, so I can do it while sitting cloaked and waiting for a target, or while I'm docked and waiting for a fleet to form up.

I did find some issues, so I'm going to split them up based on what part of PD they are affecting.

User Interface:
Issue: The size of the Project Discovery window isn't adjustable.
Description: Some players (like me!) are going to have a lot of spare screen real estate to work with, and we'd like to make use of it. Allowing us to resize the interface would allow for players to use the space they've got available. As it is, the default window size is great for small or compact screens, and all of the UI elements feel like they fit neatly and effectively, but an expanded window size would allow for more effective use by players who want to spend time doing this. It would also help with some other issues I'll list below.
Suggested Fix: Make it possible to resize the window within reason. Tthere should, of course, be a minimum size - what we've got now works well for that.

Issue: Switching quickly between whole-image and a 'locked' magnified area is awkward.
Description: The click-to-lock-viewfinder behavior is useful but in order to view the whole image for a moment and then return to that zoomed in area, one must click in the image to unlock it, move the mouse out, then move the mouse back to where it was originally and click to lock again.
Suggested Fix: Add a keypress (or button) to quickly toggle between showing the whole image and the selected magnified area.

Issue: Minimap sometimes covers portion of image that user is trying to look at
Description: Using the magnifying glass functionality causes a small minimap of the full image to appear in the lower-right corner. If the user is attempting to look at the lower-right corner of the whole image, this map can get in the way.
Suggested Fix: Move the minimap out of the larger image entirely.

Issue: Magnifying glass functionality on image is awkward around edges of image.
Description: Because the magnifying glass functionality uses the relative position of the mouse cursor to the whole image itself, trying to look at things near the edges of the image is difficult because the cursor must be on the edge of the image in order to view things at the very edge, which, as one can imagine, results in the mouse cursor often going off of the image entirely and deactivating the magnification as a result.
Suggested Fix: Change the anchoring point for the mouse cursor so that it represents the center of the magnified area; this will also allow for a "deadzone" along the edges of the image. Alternatively, allow the user to click and drag on the minimap (if moved out of the main image, as in the previous suggested fix) to move the viewport around in the larger image.


Color Filters:
Issue: Need more filters.
Description: For some images, the four filter settings we have (red/green/blue, green-only, green/blue, green/red) are not enough to clearly discern certain cellular formations in the image.
Suggested Fix: Add filters for red-only, blue-only, and red/blue.

Issue: Colorblindness sucks.
Description: For people with normal vision, the minigame looks and works great. For people with colorblindness it could become nearly impossible to participate.
Suggested Fix: An option for players to select the colors they want to be used instead of RGB would probably be ideal if it is possible.

Issue: Some tooltip examples use color filters and some do not.
Description: Some of the tooltip examples for the cellular formations are shown under specific color filters. The ability to view tooltip examples under different filters would help users spot them more easily.
Suggested Fix: Show any given tooltip example under multiple color filters.


Gameplay:
Issue: Tooltip examples of the different cellular formations need a little more variety.
Description: There are a wide range of correct uses of each of the formations that players are trying to identify. A few more examples of each would help players identify them in some more obscure cases.
Suggested Fix: Add some extra examples for each tooltip.

Issue: 'Results' page is often wildly inaccurate.
Description: The results displayed on images that have not yet reached a "consensus" often appear to be so wildly incorrect that it is either an issue on CCP's end or users are deliberately being lazy ***** on sisi and clicking the wrong things and skewing the statistics as a result.
Suggested Fix: Not really sure, but it needs to be looked into. If it's an issue of users deliberately skewing the results out of laziness, then a way to eliminate and discourage that needs to be found. Other posters have touched on this already.

Issue: Player has no idea when his or her submissions will be factored into their accuracy ratings.
Description: There's no way to tell how long it will be before a particular image will have a consensus reached and accuracy ratings back-tracked for users that contributed to that consensus.
Suggested Fix: Include an estimate, either as a percentage of completion, or perhaps a time, for "pending" submissions in the history dropdown. If possible, of course.

Morwen Lagann

CEO, Tyrathlion Interstellar

Coordinator, Arataka Research Consortium

Owner, The Golden Masque

Arista Shahni
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#26 - 2016-01-23 02:56:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Arista Shahni
Former Rad. Oncology researcher here (fluorescnet immunohistochemistry, cryostat work, fluorescent microscopy and objective image analysis, western blot analysis and 3D gels, some minor experience in proteomics, published author, but shelf life of lab techs is short.. about 10yrs before repetitive stress issues.. so, here I am... bored ...) .. I personally don't care if I get paid in jelly beans, balls of lint, or a pat on the back, as I miss my career so painfully, anything will make me feel better. (so don't look to me to gauge an appropriate reward. I was Academia -- for us, as most know, the work can be the reward. So listen to everyone else. I say - special monocles. >:) )

DLing the launcher and going to look into it this week.

My CV is dusty. Can I add this? >:)

"I say that even as the holy and the righteous cannot rise beyond the highest which is in each one of you - so the wicked and the weak cannot fall lower than the lowest which is in you also.  And as a single leaf turns not yellow but with the silent knowledge of the whole tree, so the wrong-doer cannot do wrong without the hidden will of you all."

Kyle Hargrove
EVE University
Ivy League
#27 - 2016-01-23 10:33:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Kyle Hargrove
Heyo!

As someone really interested into gamification, and who has participated in similar projects before: huge props! I really like the idea behind it, and the implementation is also really nice!

Aside from "balancing issues", which I'm sure you'll handle appropriately, here are some more suggestions, most of which have been mentioned by other people in this thread:

  • "Colourblind mode": or at least something to make it more accessible to colourblind people. Unfortunately, I cannot help with a constructive solution myself... Because I'm colourblind. But let me know if you need any help with testing! :D
  • "Skip" button: definitely something that is needed for when you can't really recognize one pattern from the other. Also helps colorblind people for when they can't recognize a pattern. Of course, "skipping" would give no rewards and no penalties.
  • Reducing "Transmitting results..." wait time. That looks very fancy, but it's also unrealistically long for transmitting such a small piece of data. I would suggest just speeding it up.
  • Rethink the "Rewards" screen. I see you want to show it after each successful task, to have someone feel actually rewarded for the effort they're doing, but some people might be there for the long haul, and therefore don't really care how many spacepoints they're making for each round, and might be already committed to making 10, 20 rounds. My suggestion here would be to transform the reward panel to a "notification icon" on the Project Discovery window that flashes every time you complete a task. That way you still give the players visual feedback for their successful completion of the task and a possibility to check how much they've made without annoying those users who want to commit more time into the minigame.
  • Download all images at the beginning of the task. I would suggest downloading the RGB image first, then immediately queuing the other three images, so that when the user wants to switch between different filters, he doesn't have to wait.


Keep up the good gameplay and, of course, the science!
Feer Truelight
#28 - 2016-01-23 10:45:01 UTC
- SOE LP is fine, but start with rewards with an accuracy above 50% (prevents random clicking/spamming)
- More example pictures - it is hard to distinguish with just one picture
- Change description texts to be easily understandable

8/7/2006 3:39:36 PM UTC FreeCCP Promotional Game Time 7 Days Paid

6/1/2012 5:48:57 PM UTC PayPal 1 x 1 Month EVE Subscription + Signup €19.95 Paid

CCP took 6 years to convert me to a (still) paying subscriber :)

Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#29 - 2016-01-23 13:31:14 UTC
Scotsman Howard wrote:
Can you confirm or not whether the results from Singularity will actually be used in the research project?

I ask because you come to us on the singularity server to essentially try to break things and work out the bugs. However, if we are breaking things in this case (by randomly clicking to see how close we can get with the least amount of work), that would be very bad for the intended goals.

If I am able to get a 40-50% just by randomly clicking in a short amount of time, you know it will happen on the main server.

My advise would be to set the payout structure to be something like this:

0-75% - 0 LP
75-80% - 10LP
80-85% - 50LP
85-90% - 150LP
90-95% - 250LP
96-99% - 450LP
100% - 500LP

While the actual ranges and payouts could be adjusted, I think you can see that this method rewards those who actually try and get good at this. This would help discourage people from randomly clicking and ruining SOE LP.

The payouts are fine just as they are. It works on diminishing returns.
And if you don't think players will random click on TQ just for a bit of LP, you don't know the Eve player base very well. Mini games in general suck, this one will be no different. Likely; It will be farmed (excessively) by a few and used for short term gain by many.

This will devalue SOE LP even with 200LP per click return, that alone could net a knowledgeable individual around 120K LP p/h. (risk free)
What would 500K per submission do to it? (greed is good until you get too greedy and devalue your income stream)


Oh and as this is Eve - Where is the "Risk" vs Reward side of this. It seems this is all reward and quite good rewards for a minority.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Un Lapin
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#30 - 2016-01-23 16:58:02 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:

The payouts are fine just as they are. It works on diminishing returns...

...It will be farmed (excessively) by a few and used for short term gain by many...

...This will devalue SOE LP...

...It seems this is all reward and quite good rewards for a minority...


So you say the payout is fine, then contradict yourself with the everything you say afterwards?

It's not diminishing returns since diminishing returns implies as you increase 1 factor (accuracy) then the output per unit (reward) will reduce. Example of diminishing returns in EVE: Incursions and player numbers in fleet; at a certain threshold increasing players reduces the individual gains.

They need to figure out the threshold between random clicking and being bad at this game, below this should be no payout. You shouldn't get paid well for being bad at EVE, especially considering this game requires no skill training or capital investment.
Julie Braxton
Two A.D.
#31 - 2016-01-23 18:43:06 UTC
I read the dev blog and my first thought was "ooh, a new exploration mini-game?"

But instead, as a completely new mini-game, I worry there will not be much immersion feeling.

The rewards, ISK and LP, are boring. What about tying it to Research Points somehow?
Also as someone else mentioned, multiplayer options are important to keep people motivated.

I love the idea, hope this comes through and sees success.
HPA Dichroic
H P A
C C P Alliance
#32 - 2016-01-23 19:07:45 UTC
Hi all,

Thanks for all the interest in Project Discovery!

As the name indicates, I’m one of the scientists working on the project at the HPA in Sweden. Some of the information for more examples etc can be found currently on the HPA “dictionary” (http://www.proteinatlas.org/learn/dictionary/cell). DISCLAIMER - I am not at CCP and have no say in the final form of the game, points etc. Also, haven't played EVE before this, so I'm not the one to talk to about how this interfaces with the game, but for science things, shoot!

I figured I’ll check this forum periodically too so feel free to ask away! I’d answer a few specific questions while I’m here:

@Crazy Kitten, I think you raise a good point with the "no clue, next!" button idea. I think we should definitely look into adding that.

@Kenshin, It’s too bad that you feel that scamming is the way you want to use the game. For everyone who does want to help with science, we actually know the answers to many of the proteins you are doing so we can easily tell if you are scamming by randomly clicking so those people’s data will be thrown out. CCP may also choose to change the reward system if this becomes a problem.

@Nitchiu, Sorry you are feeling de-motivated. We have also noticed that the “consensus” scoring is a little off right now. We think that this is an issue matching labels from the atlas to the images which the location scores are currently being partially based off of. This won’t be the case on TQ since we will have larger sample sizes so we can run true consensus scoring and you won’t be doing images that we mostly know the answers for.

@Scotsman Howard, I can confirm that we intend to use data from Singularity only for the development of the data-analysis pipeline so we are ready to make results once the real thing starts up on TQ.

@Sven Viko VIkolander, Glad you love it! :) As for picking multiple options, basically you want to select every pattern you see in the image, not just the brightest one. One way to make sure you don’t miss things is to turn off the other channels and look at just green (with your monitor as bright as you can).

@Yadaryon Vondawn, see my response to @Nitchiu and bear with us. We are also considering weighting contributions to the “consensus” based on accuracy, so that scammers get less weight.

@Starbuilder Stasarik, As others have said, the ones that are highlighted but not filled in are locations that are present in the image but you didn’t select. This is because in some images proteins can be in more than one location. See the bright green dots in the second example outside the nucleus? That’s why you want to also label “vesicles”.

@Un Lapin, Kyle Hargrove et al. Great suggestions! We’ll talk about them!
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#33 - 2016-01-23 22:11:06 UTC
HPA Dichroic wrote:
Hi all,

Thanks for all the interest in Project Discovery!

As the name indicates, I’m one of the scientists working on the project at the HPA in Sweden. Some of the information for more examples etc can be found currently on the HPA “dictionary” (http://www.proteinatlas.org/learn/dictionary/cell). DISCLAIMER - I am not at CCP and have no say in the final form of the game, points etc. Also, haven't played EVE before this, so I'm not the one to talk to about how this interfaces with the game, but for science things, shoot!

I figured I’ll check this forum periodically too so feel free to ask away! I’d answer a few specific questions while I’m here:

@Crazy Kitten, I think you raise a good point with the "no clue, next!" button idea. I think we should definitely look into adding that.

@Kenshin, It’s too bad that you feel that scamming is the way you want to use the game. For everyone who does want to help with science, we actually know the answers to many of the proteins you are doing so we can easily tell if you are scamming by randomly clicking so those people’s data will be thrown out. CCP may also choose to change the reward system if this becomes a problem.

@Nitchiu, Sorry you are feeling de-motivated. We have also noticed that the “consensus” scoring is a little off right now. We think that this is an issue matching labels from the atlas to the images which the location scores are currently being partially based off of. This won’t be the case on TQ since we will have larger sample sizes so we can run true consensus scoring and you won’t be doing images that we mostly know the answers for.

@Scotsman Howard, I can confirm that we intend to use data from Singularity only for the development of the data-analysis pipeline so we are ready to make results once the real thing starts up on TQ.

@Sven Viko VIkolander, Glad you love it! :) As for picking multiple options, basically you want to select every pattern you see in the image, not just the brightest one. One way to make sure you don’t miss things is to turn off the other channels and look at just green (with your monitor as bright as you can).

@Yadaryon Vondawn, see my response to @Nitchiu and bear with us. We are also considering weighting contributions to the “consensus” based on accuracy, so that scammers get less weight.

@Starbuilder Stasarik, As others have said, the ones that are highlighted but not filled in are locations that are present in the image but you didn’t select. This is because in some images proteins can be in more than one location. See the bright green dots in the second example outside the nucleus? That’s why you want to also label “vesicles”.

@Un Lapin, Kyle Hargrove et al. Great suggestions! We’ll talk about them!

WOW I'm impressed Someone nobody knows comes in here and tells eve players they are just scammers and their input worthless. Then that same person expects the Eve community to get behind his project which has absolutely nothing to do with Eve and is very likely (if successful) to simply break an aspect of the game. (that's down to CCP rather than your project)

Awesome way to introduce yourself and get the community behind you - Expect A LOT of data to be thrown out.

Using data off a test server that is used by less than 1% of the player base as your base line for data-analysis could cause you problems once it hits TQ but this is your thing and I wish you luck (lol) with the Eve community not just playing with your project. At a rough guess, having been around this game for 8 years - 1 in 100 (maybe) will take it seriously, the other 99 will do it to see how much LP can be made. If the rewards are too low, you lose those scammers (good right) and possibly many genuine contributors (because there are better things to do in eve than trying to decide what shape looks closest to a hit - for little reward). If the rewards are too high, the "scammer" (not a nice way to refer to people you don't know who simply may not be good at "pick the right shape" novelty games) will have a field day with it.

Is it scamming??
After all, a little green blob with red lines running through it, is just that - I find it hard to believe that little green blob is actually a blue blob with smaller green blobs in the middle of it. But what would I know, I'm just a scammer (a long time player of Eve with no scientific knowledge, who thought it might be cool to try something that looked interesting)...

I'm all for Eve players donating time to science - CCP can host your "game" somewhere else and those who wish to contribute can, while the "scammers" will not bother - because who scams if there is nothing to gain - and who would not "donate" their time to something they want to contribute to. You want this as a part of Eve you take the good with the bad (that is how eve works) but don't start out by insulting those you want help from.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Un Lapin
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#34 - 2016-01-23 22:33:52 UTC
HPA Dichroic, welcome to EVE. See above for example of the dbag side of EVE.
space gator
Adhocracy Incorporated
Adhocracy
#35 - 2016-01-23 23:26:42 UTC
Additional examples would definitely help. I think it's a great idea for a worthy cause and worth a try.
Shuckstar
Blue Dreams Plus
#36 - 2016-01-24 00:42:11 UTC
Would love to try it but meh account activation/reactivation waiting time's is taking the **** tbh :(

CCP Greyscale wrote:"OK, I've read every post up to page 200, and we're getting to a point in this thread where there's not a lot of new concerns or suggestions being brought up. There will be future threads (and future blogs) as we tune details, but for now I want to thank you for all of your constructive input, and wish you a good weekend :)"

HPA Dichroic
H P A
C C P Alliance
#37 - 2016-01-24 08:38:45 UTC
@Sgt Ocker, sorry you feel offended. I am not calling everyone "scammers", maybe it was a poor choice of wording. I am merely expressing that those who play the game with no intention of getting the correct answer will need to be filtered some how to prevent them from skewing our results. Hopefully that won't be a large percentage, but we'll see.

To clarify, we WON'T be using the data from Singularity in our overall results, rather to build the way in which the data is handled. This includes scripts for transferring the data back to HPA, parsing it and understanding the outputs from the gamers.

Anyway, thanks for the interest.
Stalence
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#38 - 2016-01-24 09:03:01 UTC
I've been excited to try this out ever since I saw the presentation at EVE Vegas at played with the demo there for 5 minutes.

I think the tutorial was pretty informative but not wholly inclusive, but there are some things you just learn as you go with it (like choosing all patterns you see, not just the dominant ones).

I agree some people will try to game the system for easy LP rewards, I know CCP will have to set up the rewards to discourage that.

Some suggestions:
Make it clearer in the tutorial to select all applicable patterns, not just the dominant one.

It would be cool if your Scientist Rank was publicly available in your profile (like faction warfare rank).

A game wide rankings/scoreboard would be cool too.

How many ranks are there? It took quite a while to earn Rank 3. If there are 5-10 ranks then maybe that amount of grind is okay, if there are 100 ranks, then please speed up the first few.


All in all a great pass at this really novel idea. I can't wait to see it on TQ with a larger sample size for statistics.

Member of #tweetfleet @stalence // Templis CALSF // YouTube Channel

Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
#39 - 2016-01-24 13:07:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Ralph King-Griffin
HPA Dichroic wrote:
@Sgt Ocker, sorry you feel offended.

don't be,
we love a good auld manufactured outrage and hes just making a meal out of it,
also the prevalent attitude here is one of mistrust and thinly veiled hostility (its part of the charmBlink) ,

welcome aboard mate, hopefully you actually take to the game.

@ CCP Paradox ,
imo the rewards are fine,
but i would like to be able to re size or make the image and/or ui for this fullscreen when im giving it my full attention.
yes the zoom is fine and works but i would rather just have a larger image,
i can see it fine and the resolution and coloring options are spot on but if im going to sit down and do this, ill get engaged and want it bigger

also

that link needs to be in the client somewhere obvious, i found i was using trial and error with the ui whereas having seen that im a considerably more informed now.

also +1 for the "i need an adult" button, some of these i cant answer without either guessing or giving a false negative , niether of which i would like to do.
Aden Ordinii
Mars-Alpha Works
#40 - 2016-01-24 14:09:52 UTC
Just gave it a try on SiSi, dam its not like hacking...it is realy hard

I like the idea. The concept of the minigame, is what many ask to get into game. and its still optional. mining, missi running(saving the damsel the 40th time) or fleetfights(you know some will do it).

But it needs tweeks. I am no biologist or labrat just a normal guy, so its from a normal guys viewpoint:

1. reward only pays when you do a "hit", so no clicking for reward, do the game properly-->reward. And i dident ment: oh you dident land a singel hit the last 30 samples here have 100k and 1000LP...i ment 0! Get better at it.

2. Make better sample pics. for example the Nucleus Pic Nucleoplasma and Nuclear spackles are quite simmilar, in some samples i had ideditfied as b) because i interpreted the sample as less dense as in a). But i was wrong...okey. The main Sample pic is good. its sharp, good contrast good colour options to get details. But the refernce ones, seems a bit grainy, and it needs a zoom to, or the colour thing.

3. There is a change from Rank 2 to 3, i dident see any new explanation on what is needed...only 4%, 8%, 55% or 0% overlays after hiting the submit. do i need to add 100% to get it done, to get a accuracy rating? or doo i need all atributes?

4. Dont hide it in Buisness (E) Folder. But it directly in the NEOCOM (much better then the Store icon) so people will use it.

Not often i sit on the edge for something like this, and I wanted to do this right, so i think you are on the right track.

All coments above are my viewpoints only. If others dont agree with them...Bazzinga i dont care.