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[Citadels] Capital Q&A

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RcTamiya
Magister Mortalis.
#221 - 2016-01-05 07:18:13 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
RcTamiya wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
[quote=Valeska Vasile]1-2k dps from a seiged dread dps is too low, stuff



You all are mad because of that "just 2k dps" while nobody ever said that this number is final ....
I'll give you one example, lets take my favourit dread, the pheonix
As we all know, you only need 2 guidiance computers, 1 explusionradius rig and a rapier with 3 TPs + Informationlinks, as
result? A Battleship even with Skirmish links is getting hit for full damage as long as it is slower than 137.6 m/s, the phoenix does NOT need drugs for this.
Now it doesn't matter how much you fix turretdreads with low tracking etc, as long as Sig and Explusionradius are 100% responsible for dmg application of missiles (because to get down to 140m/s is just 1-2 webs, nothing difficult at all to accomplish), the blaphpoenix will be superior and op in compairson to all post-rebalancedreads.
Also the trackingformula is important to keep in mind, those 2k dps are made for "if you orbit the dread at >500m/s (with or without ab doesn't matter)" if you orbit it, you can't be hit by it, even if webbed (manual piloting to orbit even closer and max out transversal, ever heard of it?!)
However if you are @ ~ 25k from the dread your speed is lower than 20 m/s even an artynag without trackingmods can and will hit you, now if we keep in mind that most of the people crying here were nullseccers and not wh dwellers, I doubt that your dreads usually get orbited at 500, with manual piloted ships to max out transversal, usually you're all following an anchor who's keeping at least some distance to dreads.
This is just one example to show you, that all this salt is a waste, dreadblaps will still be viable in certain circumstances and as long as Application for Turretweapons and Missiles is not reworked, they'll not change.
Dreads vs Caps shouldn't change at all, lets be honest, i've never seen a speed-/transversaltanking Pantheoncarrier yet and i doubt they'll become a thing ....
How to fix ? Rolebonus to limit DPS on Sub-Caps!

Hmmm, It is application for capital turrets and launchers that is changing - So, your current blap phoenix will need to fit HAW launchers to be able to hit (some) subcaps AND they will do around 2,000 DPS in siege.
LOL, no a blap Phoenix doesn't need drugs to do it - It only needs two other pilots and specialized ships.

Dreads vs capitals will indeed change - A carrier will now be able to engage you from hundreds of Km away with a simple point and click. In fact smart carrier pilots will never be in range of a dread to be shot at. Dread can only do damage to another capital by being in siege, so is stuck in one place for the duration - A carrier has no siege or triage mode and with capital sized MWD's plus strategic warp points (bookmarks) can remain as much as possible out of range of a siege dread.

Good or bad - Someone at CCP is fixated on kiting, long range fighting (except that is for HAW weapons, which will give dreads a "superior range" of 50K [example of Devs being out of touch] from high angle weapons). The fact it is the least engaging style of fighting doesn't seem to matter. It is the direction, so we all need to get used to it.

NB; The "fix" for blap Phoenix's - Increase the explosion radius of all Citadel missiles - Your blap dread, no matter how many webs, will not hit a subcap. The new HAW launcher for Phoenix is likely to be similar to RHML using cruise size missiles but with far lower damage application potential than either RHML or RLML.



Looks like you have zero experience with a Phoenix *Sigh* 3 TPs in a Rapier (+infolinks) and 2 webs is all you need to get 100% dmg applicaiton on a BS.
That's without any use of Drugs.
Now on T3cs your limit is ~ 5k dps, still thats 55k alpha, this however requieres drugs, otherwise you're down to 3.800 dps (took an Armorloki as example here).
Issue is, if they change Explusionradius of Citadel Missiles, they have to change a LOT of Structures again to adapt their Applicaiton on Structures and may have to tweak Capitalsignature as well, I doubt that they'll do that, because they've done it in the past allready and weren't happy with it.

Howevr, I agree on Carriergameplay, it will be something longrangebased and intresting... indeeed.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#222 - 2016-01-05 10:08:05 UTC
RcTamiya wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
RcTamiya wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
[quote=Valeska Vasile]1-2k dps from a seiged dread dps is too low, stuff



You all are mad because of that "just 2k dps" while nobody ever said that this number is final ....
I'll give you one example, lets take my favourit dread, the pheonix
As we all know, you only need 2 guidiance computers, 1 explusionradius rig and a rapier with 3 TPs + Informationlinks, as
result? A Battleship even with Skirmish links is getting hit for full damage as long as it is slower than 137.6 m/s, the phoenix does NOT need drugs for this.
Now it doesn't matter how much you fix turretdreads with low tracking etc, as long as Sig and Explusionradius are 100% responsible for dmg application of missiles (because to get down to 140m/s is just 1-2 webs, nothing difficult at all to accomplish), the blaphpoenix will be superior and op in compairson to all post-rebalancedreads.
Also the trackingformula is important to keep in mind, those 2k dps are made for "if you orbit the dread at >500m/s (with or without ab doesn't matter)" if you orbit it, you can't be hit by it, even if webbed (manual piloting to orbit even closer and max out transversal, ever heard of it?!)
However if you are @ ~ 25k from the dread your speed is lower than 20 m/s even an artynag without trackingmods can and will hit you, now if we keep in mind that most of the people crying here were nullseccers and not wh dwellers, I doubt that your dreads usually get orbited at 500, with manual piloted ships to max out transversal, usually you're all following an anchor who's keeping at least some distance to dreads.
This is just one example to show you, that all this salt is a waste, dreadblaps will still be viable in certain circumstances and as long as Application for Turretweapons and Missiles is not reworked, they'll not change.
Dreads vs Caps shouldn't change at all, lets be honest, i've never seen a speed-/transversaltanking Pantheoncarrier yet and i doubt they'll become a thing ....
How to fix ? Rolebonus to limit DPS on Sub-Caps!

Hmmm, It is application for capital turrets and launchers that is changing - So, your current blap phoenix will need to fit HAW launchers to be able to hit (some) subcaps AND they will do around 2,000 DPS in siege.
LOL, no a blap Phoenix doesn't need drugs to do it - It only needs two other pilots and specialized ships.

Dreads vs capitals will indeed change - A carrier will now be able to engage you from hundreds of Km away with a simple point and click. In fact smart carrier pilots will never be in range of a dread to be shot at. Dread can only do damage to another capital by being in siege, so is stuck in one place for the duration - A carrier has no siege or triage mode and with capital sized MWD's plus strategic warp points (bookmarks) can remain as much as possible out of range of a siege dread.

Good or bad - Someone at CCP is fixated on kiting, long range fighting (except that is for HAW weapons, which will give dreads a "superior range" of 50K [example of Devs being out of touch] from high angle weapons). The fact it is the least engaging style of fighting doesn't seem to matter. It is the direction, so we all need to get used to it.

NB; The "fix" for blap Phoenix's - Increase the explosion radius of all Citadel missiles - Your blap dread, no matter how many webs, will not hit a subcap. The new HAW launcher for Phoenix is likely to be similar to RHML using cruise size missiles but with far lower damage application potential than either RHML or RLML.



Looks like you have zero experience with a Phoenix *Sigh* 3 TPs in a Rapier (+infolinks) and 2 webs is all you need to get 100% dmg applicaiton on a BS.
That's without any use of Drugs.
Now on T3cs your limit is ~ 5k dps, still thats 55k alpha, this however requieres drugs, otherwise you're down to 3.800 dps (took an Armorloki as example here).
Issue is, if they change Explusionradius of Citadel Missiles, they have to change a LOT of Structures again to adapt their Applicaiton on Structures and may have to tweak Capitalsignature as well, I doubt that they'll do that, because they've done it in the past allready and weren't happy with it.

Howevr, I agree on Carriergameplay, it will be something longrangebased and intresting... indeeed.

I'd go read the blog if i were you.. That is exactly what they are doing.
Capitals are all being rebalanced - EHP lowered, bonuses changed / removed, extra modules required for fittings and to balance the whole thing, yes the sig radius of all capitals will need to be altered. Structures are not such a problem, they are being changed at the same time and will likely match the new capitals, I don't think Devs have gone into this without taking Citadels into consideration.

Your Phoenix will not be able to hit subcaps for anywhere near the damage they do now. Not unless you take along 2 Rapiers, info and skirmish links.

Do you honestly think CCP is going to all the trouble of rebalancing capitals and introducing a whole new set of weapons for them and they won't include the Phoenix, especially with the posts here extolling the current virtues of it. The Phoenix is going to be under more scrutiny than the other 3 to ensure it isn't left in its current guise of a capital with battleship abilities.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
RcTamiya
Magister Mortalis.
#223 - 2016-01-05 10:46:32 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:

I'd go read the blog if i were you.. That is exactly what they are doing.
Capitals are all being rebalanced - EHP lowered, bonuses changed / removed, extra modules required for fittings and to balance the whole thing, yes the sig radius of all capitals will need to be altered. Structures are not such a problem, they are being changed at the same time and will likely match the new capitals, I don't think Devs have gone into this without taking Citadels into consideration.

Your Phoenix will not be able to hit subcaps for anywhere near the damage they do now. Not unless you take along 2 Rapiers, info and skirmish links.

Do you honestly think CCP is going to all the trouble of rebalancing capitals and introducing a whole new set of weapons for them and they won't include the Phoenix, especially with the posts here extolling the current virtues of it. The Phoenix is going to be under more scrutiny than the other 3 to ensure it isn't left in its current guise of a capital with battleship abilities.




I do read Blogs very carefully, I also know what's getting datamined, what's beeing discussed at roundtables and so on.
In fact, there's a point where you have to rework current dps applicaiton formulas, a point where nerfing makes it impossible to land a hit.
Why? Well use a triplenano mwd nidhi orbiting a full tracking fitted Nag and you'll look as suprised as me when i figured that out ;)
If they nerf tracking too much, Capitals can transversaltank capitals, we don't want that, because it doesn't make sense :P
Same for Phoenix, If you have to rebalance EVERYTHING about damage applikation around a ship, you are doing something wrong, they have to rework how missiles apply damage and fix all the issues we have right now with that ;)
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#224 - 2016-01-05 20:17:47 UTC
RcTamiya wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:

I'd go read the blog if i were you.. That is exactly what they are doing.
Capitals are all being rebalanced - EHP lowered, bonuses changed / removed, extra modules required for fittings and to balance the whole thing, yes the sig radius of all capitals will need to be altered. Structures are not such a problem, they are being changed at the same time and will likely match the new capitals, I don't think Devs have gone into this without taking Citadels into consideration.

Your Phoenix will not be able to hit subcaps for anywhere near the damage they do now. Not unless you take along 2 Rapiers, info and skirmish links.

Do you honestly think CCP is going to all the trouble of rebalancing capitals and introducing a whole new set of weapons for them and they won't include the Phoenix, especially with the posts here extolling the current virtues of it. The Phoenix is going to be under more scrutiny than the other 3 to ensure it isn't left in its current guise of a capital with battleship abilities.




I do read Blogs very carefully, I also know what's getting datamined, what's beeing discussed at roundtables and so on.
In fact, there's a point where you have to rework current dps applicaiton formulas, a point where nerfing makes it impossible to land a hit.
Why? Well use a triplenano mwd nidhi orbiting a full tracking fitted Nag and you'll look as suprised as me when i figured that out ;)
If they nerf tracking too much, Capitals can transversaltank capitals, we don't want that, because it doesn't make sense :P
Same for Phoenix, If you have to rebalance EVERYTHING about damage applikation around a ship, you are doing something wrong, they have to rework how missiles apply damage and fix all the issues we have right now with that ;)

Missiles have needed reworking for years and not just on the Phoenix - Simple fact is, Devs have no idea how to balance missiles and so it never gets done. They go through stages of OP or don't work, there is no middle ground (balance).

Interesting you must be the only one up to date with round tables - Care to fill the rest of us in as nothing has been made public (in existing threads on the topic at least) for over a month and what was made public didn't really cover much at all.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Cenwarde
Symmetric Symbioses
#225 - 2016-01-08 14:01:59 UTC
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Q) What will be the volume of these modules? Will this mean that you can only carry a small amount in your Capital? #1
A) We havn't decided. We are aware of issues regarding moving Long Range and Short Range guns when moving a Dreadnought, + all the capital modules we're adding.

Okay wild, hair-brained idea for the moving Dreadnought guns issue. Take an idea from the T3 destroyers, have a long-range, short-range and high-angle mode on the Dreadnaught's weapon systems allowing the ship to dynamically change weapons types. Give the ship a 24,000 m3 weapons bay where the weapon modules must be placed to activate the mode switching, the bay only accepts capital guns. Build in a delay while changing weapons systems. Perhaps T1 vs T2 siege module impacts the delay timer OR siege module enables this mode-switching capability? Possible animation as the ship switches between modes?

This eliminates the need to move multiple weapons systems with your dread, they become an all-in-one package. Lore-wise, perhaps this is justification for the mass of the ship relative to its damage output.
Hiljah
Slap Fight Martial Artists
#226 - 2016-01-13 03:21:19 UTC
Cenwarde wrote:
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Q) What will be the volume of these modules? Will this mean that you can only carry a small amount in your Capital? #1
A) We havn't decided. We are aware of issues regarding moving Long Range and Short Range guns when moving a Dreadnought, + all the capital modules we're adding.

Okay wild, hair-brained idea for the moving Dreadnought guns issue. Take an idea from the T3 destroyers, have a long-range, short-range and high-angle mode on the Dreadnaught's weapon systems allowing the ship to dynamically change weapons types. Give the ship a 24,000 m3 weapons bay where the weapon modules must be placed to activate the mode switching, the bay only accepts capital guns. Build in a delay while changing weapons systems. Perhaps T1 vs T2 siege module impacts the delay timer OR siege module enables this mode-switching capability? Possible animation as the ship switches between modes?

This eliminates the need to move multiple weapons systems with your dread, they become an all-in-one package. Lore-wise, perhaps this is justification for the mass of the ship relative to its damage output.


Crazier idea, just make a dreadnought able to track a battleship while out of siege and up the dps. He's a maaaaad man.
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#227 - 2016-01-20 12:07:11 UTC
Given that there will be no item safety for citadels in wormhole space, are we likely to see special bonuses and modules for wormhole space?

There is already next to no reason to manufacture things in wormhole space and i think wormhole space needs special modules to make it more efficient or valuable to manufacture everything (ships, modules, boosters, etc.) than can be manufactured in wormhole space.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Thunder1971
Project Omega Industries
Fraternity.
#228 - 2016-01-20 22:10:14 UTC
There is almost no comments on the carrier.

1. What bonuses will the carriers be getting to exchange for the repping bonuses they have now?

2. What is your expectations for the carrier in its new role/ old role?
Siginek
Newbie Friendly Industries
CeskoSlovenska Aliance
#229 - 2016-01-22 11:21:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Siginek
So ... since pointless discussion about refunding skillpoints is "hopefuly" behind us there are some things i hope to see in capital rebalance ...

1) Preservation of refitting on FAX (as triage pilot i can tell that this is one of core mechanics of triage now) ... so maybe some kind of dualfit on FAX, where pilot can switch between 2 fitted modules in slot (each slot individually) with some period of time when both modules are offline (15 sec?)

2) Ability to dock piloted ships into capitals - why dont we have this alredy? - this would provide lot of new and interresting gameplay when t3 fleet would emerge from "lost" capital, also it would allow capitals to jump with small support fleet - which everyone claim that cap should have ... + it would be great to remove cargo restriction for SMB since its actually pointless now with jump changes and jump freighters ...

3) Dont limit dread roles - dreads shouldnt be limited to role by guns they got fitted - if you want dreads not to be able to apply full damage as they got now into subcaps but do so into caps then i think there are better ways to do it than new guns ... i liked suggestion about modes like T3D has, which someone dropped here ... or siege / out of siege, but 2 types of guns arent way to go, dreads should be able to chose who they wana shoot on grid, not in station before fight ...

4) I would like to see some kind of neuting mitigation on capital hulls to force fleets to be balanced, not like now when 50% of fleet is neuting ships (talking about WH) and rest are logis, few are jamms and even less is damage ships to kill drained enemies ...
d0cTeR9
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#230 - 2016-01-23 17:58:28 UTC
Time to refund capital skillpoints and bury capitals.

Me? I'm training an alt for another supercap, cuz why not? Lol

Been around since the beginning.
MIKE Commander
Setenta Corp
Scumlords
#231 - 2016-01-24 14:14:21 UTC
Cenwarde wrote:
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Q) What will be the volume of these modules? Will this mean that you can only carry a small amount in your Capital? #1
A) We havn't decided. We are aware of issues regarding moving Long Range and Short Range guns when moving a Dreadnought, + all the capital modules we're adding.

Okay wild, hair-brained idea for the moving Dreadnought guns issue. Take an idea from the T3 destroyers, have a long-range, short-range and high-angle mode on the Dreadnaught's weapon systems allowing the ship to dynamically change weapons types. Give the ship a 24,000 m3 weapons bay where the weapon modules must be placed to activate the mode switching, the bay only accepts capital guns. Build in a delay while changing weapons systems. Perhaps T1 vs T2 siege module impacts the delay timer OR siege module enables this mode-switching capability? Possible animation as the ship switches between modes?

This eliminates the need to move multiple weapons systems with your dread, they become an all-in-one package. Lore-wise, perhaps this is justification for the mass of the ship relative to its damage output.


I like this idea, DO THIS! I believe it solves all the problems and introduces a new interesting gameplay.

I also thought about a thing. What if the Carriers also have some kind of siege/triage module that gives them special abilities. They currently have triage which they wont have soon, the dreads have siege, why dont they put some kind of module that is somewhat like siege/triage that gives special bonuses like for example the ability to launch additional squadrons or give the fighters the special ability to warp next to the target but only warp if on grid. Because if you think about it if the carrier is becoming a long range capital it will need the long range options. Imagine if you are at long range and you launched your fighters. How long it will take for them to reach the target, and when they get there you have no control on them if you wish to return them to the carrier it will take a lot of time as well. It would be a good idea to have the warp on grid thing for fighters on the battlefield, but since it is such a great thing to have let it be activated by some kind of triage/siege module which makes the carrier immobile or it has some of the penalties that the current siege/triage mechanic is introducing.
Sian Neue
Phoenix Connection
Lack of Judgement.
#232 - 2016-01-25 11:11:16 UTC
Sorry if this is a basic question but I cannot find an official answer on it. Are citadels replacing stations or POS?
Anthar Thebess
#233 - 2016-01-25 11:46:52 UTC
Sian Neue wrote:
Sorry if this is a basic question but I cannot find an official answer on it. Are citadels replacing stations or POS?


Outposts and POS for sure - you have this everywhere.

We still don't know about how many stations they will replace.
I hope that they will leave all stations in NPC null space, they can be stripped from most of the functions, have 20% waste on industry - but without NPC null stations we will have fast 'MOA' extinction event all around eve universe.
Removing stations from NPC nullspace will be also last nail to coffin of many small current and future groups.

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

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Anya Klibor
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#234 - 2016-01-28 01:12:44 UTC
This doesn't really deal with capitals, but it does deal with the "EWAR Immunity" concept, and I haven't found a question or answer related to this. Will Marauders in Bastion have a similar effect going?

Leadership is something you learn. Maybe one day, you'll learn that.
Bob Niac
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#235 - 2016-01-28 03:27:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Bob Niac
If there is going to be turret-like mechanics involved, does that mean we will finally get EWAR and Triage hardpoints?



Crazy Idea but .. can armor and hull reppers be missiles then? With a nanite payload? It would add an interesting mechanic and an ammo requirement with all the drawbacks thereof. How about Energy and Shield use a turret similar to strip miners but with tracking and falloff?


Edit: speaking of Bastion: Why is Triage not getting a cycle time change? I had suggested some time ago siege style modules get scripts, and the response was something along the lines of "that's a good idea!" but nothing ever came of it. Maybe we can get a script that reduces cycle time by a 1/3 but also has a 25% resource penalty? Sort of an overheat script?

[u]I <3 Logistics:[/u] Pilot of all  T2 logi and my shiny Archon [deceased.] Also a Chimera which may or may not be horrid. I don't make games, I play them. I get that ppl are passionate about change. I post here to plant seeds. You see your idea as is? Holy **** you win! So let's post, and see what the DEVs and our peers use.
Caleb Seremshur
Commando Guri
Guristas Pirates
#236 - 2016-01-29 04:33:31 UTC
Why have we heard so little information regarding supers and carriers? We know very little about fighters and fighter bombers also. In regards to having just spent the better part of a year training for capitals I would appreciate some more info and I'm sure many thousands of others would too.
Anthar Thebess
#237 - 2016-01-29 09:25:43 UTC
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
Why have we heard so little information regarding supers and carriers? We know very little about fighters and fighter bombers also. In regards to having just spent the better part of a year training for capitals I would appreciate some more info and I'm sure many thousands of others would too.

Logs show nothing

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

Show your support to The Cause!
Bob Niac
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#238 - 2016-01-31 16:47:52 UTC
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
Why have we heard so little information regarding supers and carriers? We know very little about fighters and fighter bombers also. In regards to having just spent the better part of a year training for capitals I would appreciate some more info and I'm sure many thousands of others would too.



In my experience this is usually when something is either: Not ready to ship, a rework is being done, or (most likely in this case) there is going to be a big reveal at fanfest.

[u]I <3 Logistics:[/u] Pilot of all  T2 logi and my shiny Archon [deceased.] Also a Chimera which may or may not be horrid. I don't make games, I play them. I get that ppl are passionate about change. I post here to plant seeds. You see your idea as is? Holy **** you win! So let's post, and see what the DEVs and our peers use.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#239 - 2016-02-01 00:37:37 UTC
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
Why have we heard so little information regarding supers and carriers? We know very little about fighters and fighter bombers also. In regards to having just spent the better part of a year training for capitals I would appreciate some more info and I'm sure many thousands of others would too.

Afaik, it's part of the citadel release in 'spring', which appears to be sometime after March. Getting specifics likely won't happen until mid February or later.
hoseratio Enderas
State War Academy
Caldari State
#240 - 2016-02-05 13:26:20 UTC
(no good english) Fighter squadron need voice. cause they are not drone