Player Features and Ideas Discussion

So standing fleets do work after all. Now we're getting somewhere. So make some standing fleets and never care again...like countless people have said already. It's almost like people with the will and ability to hold onto their space can .... hold onto their space. I'm going to go with "working as intended".

The safety level is perfectly appropriate because the second they move it drops like a stone.

Jerghul could you stop talking about things you got zero knowledge of? 90% of my day in W-space is spent hunting and doing PVP. The fact that you cannot just sit on your ass and wait for the content to come to you is not a problem if you are willing to work for it.

And no matter how many people suggest those ideas, they still suck.

If you do anything AFK in w-space, you don't get anything done.

AFK-cloaking is an issue within ratters minds. Nothing else

Actually local is a major provider of intel. It gives free unbiased intel 23.5/7 days a week without fail. While not all intel goes through it, knowing who is in system seems to be a big thing. Preparing an ambush also requires local intel. You do after all need to know what system they are in.
I'm sure at this point, you'll do a complete about face and go on about 'yes they are in system but the cloak stops me knowing where.' I'll simply say this... And?

As far as the rest of that nonsense, people do things in Eve all the time I am unaware of. That doesn't mean I should be able to know or stop them, even though I can try. Another ridiculous position from you tbh Mike. Seeing as others seem to accomplish doing just that, with the tools CCP currently provide.

If I am doing anything under a cloak, it's as the role intended. You're still not getting it. Here let me spell it out for you.
C o v e r t O p s.
Blame? Why should I blame anyone because you can't be honest with your arguments. Indefinite safety being just one of the disingenuous things you try to use. But what you omit is that while they are safe at that safe spot, you are from them. Two way street.
That's also ignoring CCP are fine with it. You lost that argument Mike, no amount of word games wins it back.

Now at this point you'll mention the elephant, but not wish to talk about it.

You keep saying that it's a two way street, but it's not. They can do things against me, but I can't do things against them. There are more ways to cause harm than just shooting people.

That ship does not need to stay at some remote safe to stay safe. It just has to fly intelligently and it can be on grid with a fleet of people hunting it without fear.

Local is just one source of Intel, and that only the most basic info. It says who is in the solar system. Not what they are doing, what they are flying, not who they are with, where they have been, where they are going, or anything else you would want to know. Even being able to look up employment history and such isn't a local thing, you can do that regardless of local. Being butt hurt because local works without having to hit a button every 5 seconds is no reason to make the game even more ridiculously slanted in favor of aggressive tear farmers.

" Even though I can try"..... Except you can't try to stop them. Nothing and no one can affect a ship under a cloak unless it's flown stupidly. You can't force them to move systems for a chance at them. You can't compel them to stay near objects that might break their cloak. You can't do anything to them, or to their environment that might force their hand at any time. Only they can.

If they are going to be that safe, they should be as useless as a ship in a station, until the target delay drops.

Or bait them while in a standing fleet and simply laugh and kill them when they try to attack (and if you can't muster a standing fleet, you have no business outside of HS)

Mikey, when you lived in low or null (DID you ever live outside of HS? It looks like not, which makes you even talking in this thread abso-*******-lutely ridiculous) did you ever bother with defense fleets?



Someone with an active cloak can literally do nothing against you. If you choose to live in the most dangerous parts of space in a PvP-centered game, you assume someone's going to try to kill you at any moment going into it and plan accordingly, regardless of the big ol' mean neutral you see in local. If you don't have that attitude, stay in HS.

No... See baiting requires them to accept the bait. It's not action forced upon them. It's fine as far as it goes, but ultimately against a cloaker it's just feeding them more Intel on what kind of force you can bring to bear.

Tell me... When did Intel, especially precise Intel on location, ship type, and fleet strength become completely without value? How about combat initiative?

Intel, especially precise Intel, is kind of a big deal. Gathering it should not be possible in a ship that is safer than a station so long as it's flown intelligently.

Either make a ship under cloak incapable of performing those functions, or make the risk and effort match the reward.

Dude, my Pilgrim IS at risk whenever I actually use it. Can't force me to use it, that is true. Can't force people to undock either.

But let me tell you something about my Pilgrim. For one, it aligns like a pregnant cow. Secondly, the neuts are awesome and all that but I'm still gambling you have no cap injectors. If you do, I'm nothing but an expensive arbitrator: low DPS, low tank, no range dictation.

If you happen to have smartbombs my DPS goes down to zero real quick.

So basically, the moment I uncloak next to you -- add 6 seconds targeting delay and another 6 seconds to lock you with my mediocre 370mm scanres -- I commit to the fight. I either prevail or die; there is no middle ground, no aligning out, no disenaging, no cloaking up again.

One of several possible scenarios will happen. I picked the fight (an educated guess) so 1v1 it's probably going to work out the way I want it to. But this is no guarantee! With a bit of luck, you brought a rock whereas I brought scissors. Another possibility is that the target lights a cyno and brings in troops. Or yells on comms and brings friends before my 300-ish deeps can chew you up.

Or, finally, I could land some hard tackle on you and light my own cyno -- which does not preclude you from bringing your own friends still -- turning it into a many v many scenario instead of the 1 v whatever describer earlier.

All this of course assuming I even got to your system (as in: wasn't pooped underway) and - it goes without saying - I'm very much ATK. Once the ordeal is over, you will have learnt more about me. Next time you see me, or even when you don't know me but you do your homework and check killboards, you'd have a pretty good idea of what I can do / might bring / what I might be / when I'm active.

Obviously you still can't force me to do anything. But how prepared you are next time, is entirely up to YOU. The bottom line? Some folks seem to forget that, while Pilgrims and such are indeed quite capable ships, they are by no means to invincible bogeymen you make them out to be. They have ONE upside: the ability to pick their targets. This is the whole idea behind them. I get that you don't like it but comparing them to stations is way off the mark. There seems to be a bit of confusion going on between (a) cloaked and AFK, (b) cloaked yet ATK, and (c) uncloaked.

when uncloaked you and me are in the same pickle. We can both shoot each other, we can both bring friends.
when cloaked and ATK, my ability to pick a target and move unseen is INTENDED. You're not supposed to be able to force me out of system or force me to bounce safespots -- I can't do my bloody job while bouncing safes!
when cloaked and AFK, I am merely cheating your local channel a bit. That's all there is to it.

Some people want to address cloaks -- not sure why. Some people want to address being AFK. Again, I wonder why. Yet most propositions hurt these categories as well:

- the non-covops cloaks
- the ATK hunters

and this based on arguments relating to what an uncloaked ATK covops can do. Similarly, the matter is debated as if it were a guaranteed many(cyno) v 1 deal. Did it ever occur to you that many v 1 usually ends poorly for the 1, even when no cloaks are involved? 8 svipuls vs 1 Vargur? 10 taranis vs your Rattlesnake? The arguments raised always hinge on "poor me, I'm all alone and helpless..." well THAT'S YOUR PROBLEM RIGHT THERE. Your problem is not what the other guys bring -- cloaks, cynoes and whatnot -- your problem is you're trying to Solo.

I'm all in favour of replacing invulnerability with invisibility but the idea of limiting the range of activities a cloaker can perform is preposterous: this is already the case. "Either make a ship under cloak incapable of performing those functions, or make the risk and effort match the reward." you say? Well newsflash: a ship under cloak already is incapable of those things. Whoever has flown a Rapier or Pilgrim knows all too well the risk is already quite substantial. The reward, is moving like a ghost, unseen (for the most part).

So what you're saying is you are happy with the current situation then? After all, every requirement you stated is already met?

They explode alright ...but not automatically, no.

Now, to bring the point home: the counter to a ship that can pick its targets, is "don't look like an easy target". We wouldn't go for a couple of Ishtars. We would go for the solo guy -- even though it might be bait it's a little more managable.

You keep repeating this lie.

Tell me, how does one jump a gate "intelligently"? Don't dare say scout because the cov ops is the scout. Unless your scouts have scouts. And let us not forget the non covert cloaks who can only hide once safed up.

And crying that you can't make them jump is beyond ridiculous. Tell me, how good is their intel when they are not in the same system as you?

If you jump system you do one of two things - eviscerate their intel or force their hand into letting you have a shot at killing them, if you are skilled enough and make no mistake, decloaking is a skill, it is not luck.