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Tibus Heth. Great Caldari Hero ? Or, Greatest Caldari Hero ?
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Natheniel
Kurupt.
Sedition.
#121 - 2016-01-19 19:47:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Natheniel
Peter - with all due respect - considering you have stated earlier that, if you were in charge of the fleet instead of Heth, you would have, upon entering Luminaire, Warped the titan to gallente prime first and fired the doomsday at the planet, effectively committing genocide, I am not sure I can really see your opinion on this subject anything but lacking.

Of all the things Heth was, as far as I know anyway, he wasn't a mass murderer. (Though I could be wrong on that bit.)

Frankly I'm a little tired of everyone's willingness to murder billions at the drop of a hat though.

"Life is as a storm, one must be prepared for the hardship and scorn. But with in this is a light, one for which we must fight. For hope is our weapon and our dreams are our shield. When fully armed we can not be felled from the field."
TomHorn
Horn Brothers Holdings Inc.
#122 - 2016-01-19 20:24:56 UTC
You have got high standards Tuulinen haan . He recovers the homeworld after 200 years and removes the Fed jackboot from the neck of the Caldari people, liberates them from their despots. You call him criminally stupid. Maybe your crazy Tuulinen. Man it takes alot to please you Tuulinen.

Parks Titan near the planet as a defenesive measure , to say look your not going to re-invade. If you do try, its going cost alot of lives, its deterrent. Im not sure i agree with you. It was military plan to retake the homeworld and it was complete success, thats all we wanted.

Are we going keep blaming Heth for everything. If we are going to look back now in hindsight and maybe find faults, should maybe our military planners , most senior commissioned commanders in the navy take their share of the blame.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#123 - 2016-01-19 20:54:39 UTC
Natheniel wrote:
Peter - with all due respect - considering you have stated earlier that, if you were in charge of the fleet instead of Heth, you would have, upon entering Luminaire, Warped the titan to gallente prime first and fired the doomsday at the planet, effectively committing genocide, I am not sure I can really see your opinion on this subject anything but lacking.

Of all the things Heth was, as far as I know anyway, he wasn't a mass murderer. (Though I could be wrong on that bit.)

Frankly I'm a little tired of everyone's willingness to murder billions at the drop of a hat though.


I said that it made more sense than threatening our OWN homeworld with the weapon and I also said that, given the apparent Gallente toleration of bombarding planets, I'd have followed the order to fire on Gallente Prime if it was given to me. Heth is the one who actually ordered Admiral Yanala to fire Shiigeru's Doomsday weapon on an inhabited world so, yes, he was a would-be mass-murderer. He also gave the order to fire upon freighters full of Caldari citizens so, again, mass-murderer.

As for my opinion on Caldari Prime, well mate, I was an actor in those events. I was there at the battle and naval engagements preceding the battle, I took part in the humanitarian relief efforts afterwards and I was part of the actions taken to oust the former Executor from his position. I also serve the Corporation he used to be the CEO of. I also helped run the two of the working groups at the Pakshi Peace Conference that specificially addressed Caldari Prime and general State / Federation relations.

Like it or not, I'm not the one who has to validate my opinion on these matters. My opinion helped to form both policy and history.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#124 - 2016-01-19 21:05:45 UTC
TomHorn wrote:
You have got high standards Tuulinen haan . He recovers the homeworld after 200 years and removes the Fed jackboot from the neck of the Caldari people, liberates them from their despots. You call him criminally stupid. Maybe your crazy Tuulinen. Man it takes alot to please you Tuulinen.

Parks Titan near the planet as a defenesive measure , to say look your not going to re-invade. If you do try, its going cost alot of lives, its deterrent. Im not sure i agree with you. It was military plan to retake the homeworld and it was complete success, thats all we wanted.

Are we going keep blaming Heth for everything. If we are going to look back now in hindsight and maybe find faults, should maybe our military planners , most senior commissioned commanders in the navy take their share of the blame.


Tibus Heth's greatness was in placing the Caldari State in the best position to reach a lasting and final resolution of the Caldari Prime question, Mr Horn. I'm not one of those who was against him from the start and I'm not one of those revisionists who pretends that somehow we'd have gotten everything we wanted without military action.

Taking the planet, putting boots on the ground and seizing the Federation by the throat was a great move - but once the cyno-jammers came back up, we completely lost the ability to project force to the Luminaire system again. At this point a negotiated settlement, almost certainly involving the removal of the Shiigeru, was the only move that would have preserved the advantage.

Instead of this, the matter was left open until the Federal Navy finally decided upon the feckless gamble that was Operation Highlander. Caldari Navy, Caldari capsuleers and independent contractors were forced to fight a phyrric battle of attrition against superior forces and it was only by the slimmest of margins that the surface of the planet was held.

This could all have been avoided, in my opinion, had the former-Executor not been so focused on getting a "win".

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Teinyhr
Ourumur
#125 - 2016-01-19 21:25:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Teinyhr
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
I said that it made more sense than threatening our OWN homeworld with the weapon and I also said that, given the apparent Gallente toleration of bombarding planets, I'd have followed the order to fire on Gallente Prime if it was given to me.


Congratulations, you'd have brought the entire cluster the closest to actual annihilation than anyone ever had by committing the single largest known act of mass-murder in the known galaxy. Which would have drawn all the empires and all their assets, including Iapetan titans in to a massive war.

And you're the voice of reason here? What? You make Heth seem the sanest man alive.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#126 - 2016-01-19 21:36:13 UTC
Teinyhr wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
Teinyhr wrote:
In the same vein the oppression of the Caldari was driven largely by the U-Nats, who, while not branded terrorists, are now a decided minority in Gallentean politics. Yet you hold the entire Gallente people responsible forever for what they did hundreds of years ago...

Do all minmatars fail to see and listen things that were all over news in the cluster?
How tribals still fail to realize that we fight gallente not for what they did 200 years ago but for what they did 7 years ago and for what they are doing now?..
Minmatars really should be held as slaves and shouldn't allowed to speak without permission of their owner. Because such ignorance is really annoying and misleading. This is IGS, not a kindergarten.


And this is why the State must be destroyed.

Why? Because we are smarter than you and call you out for your ignorance about us?..

Teinyhr wrote:

How dare you lie about a Minmatar venge captain, you know nothing State lapdog.

Said a minmatar after lying about Caldari citizens. What the heck?!.. If YOU dare to blame Caldari Officer in LYING, how about standing for your word, worthless savage? Meet me in space or in person in a combat, otherwise you will be known not just like a stupid tribal, but also as a coward and honorless liar.

Teinyhr wrote:
Are all State citizens this dumb?

No, minmatar. All of us are way smarter than YOU.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#127 - 2016-01-19 21:36:48 UTC
Today I learn that it is apparently much saner to order an atrocity than carry one out. Also I learn that supporting a possible atrocity that never happened makes me a radical extremist, according to someone who is apparently okay with actual atrocities that were ordered and then carried out.

Either I'm exactly the same kind of crazy that they select for in your own Navy or we're both the soul of professionalism, lady.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#128 - 2016-01-19 21:49:39 UTC
Valerie Valate wrote:
A quick look at the posts suggests that "Great Hero" is in the lead, as people have doubts and concerns about Tibus Heth's actions.

But, is there really such a thing as a hero with no flaws ? Can anyone genuinely say, that were they in Tibus Heth's shoes, they would have made flawless decisions ?

Should I have been in his shoes...

I would CRUSH the Federation down! Once and forever! We would wash Caldari Navy boots in waters of Galelnte Prime! We would bomb them so they would feel what we felt. We would occupy their homeworld for the next 200 years! Our fleets would sweep through their systems. Our guns would tear their stations apart. We would capture gallente senators and give them fair judgement! They will be put under tribunal, and the justice will be served with their public executions!

All of the Corporations will finally be united as a new Caldari Empire. Our Navy is already known to be the most professional but the smallest one. But with united might we would build the LARGEST fleet in our cluster! We would blot out the stars with our Glory! Even in Maker-forsaken null systems they would hear how Caldari armies march!

We would build a DUST-based army, where soldiers won't be mercenaries, but properly trained soldiers of the line. DUSTers won't be jumping around chaotically, but will be marching together is strict formations. They would scatter and hit enemies synchronously with a perfect trained precision. In every battle they will be supported by wing of capsuleer ships, even inside planetary atmosphere. Our armies will shine in space, in air and on ground.

Hail the victory, citizens!

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
TomHorn
Horn Brothers Holdings Inc.
#129 - 2016-01-19 21:51:23 UTC
You make good point Tuulinen haan, there is soundess in your reasoning. I cant remember point for point without having to look back into the archive how it all panned out. Which im not going do.

You would have thought the planners , top brass in the navy , Heth would of discussed all the options , if we were successful, if we werent successful. You would of hoped your proposal would of been one of the options on the table for the recovery of the homeworld. Its , ifs and buts , i just thought you were little hard on him.

Guess after 200 years of occupation , they just didnt trust the Federation. They were probably concernced if they took up that option, as soon as the titan had left the system and the cyno jammer was up , what was preventing them from tearing up the treaty and reoccupy the planet once more. Would of been short liberation.

Let us remember when they did launch Operation Highlander , they did basically tear up the treaty Heth and Foiritan signed that handed the homeworld back to the State.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#130 - 2016-01-19 21:57:09 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Today I learn that it is apparently much saner to order an atrocity than carry one out.

Honorable commander must not give orders that she is unable to execute herself.

Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Also I learn that supporting a possible atrocity that never happened makes me a radical extremist, according to someone who is apparently okay with actual atrocities that were ordered and then carried out.

Either I'm exactly the same kind of crazy that they select for in your own Navy or we're both the soul of professionalism, lady.

Exactly. Typical gallente propaganda. It is full of logical failures.
For example, when I say - lets bomb gallente prime to bring justice (because they bombarded Caldari Prime) they would call me a radical extremist, even if I never bombed it.
It kinda bugs me out, they don't like when I am calling them out for what they did, but they are calling us out for what we never did.
Again, same story with the Leviathan "shooting at Caldari Prime". So may words was said about it, but not a single shot made by Leviathan.

Probably that sort of logic makes me to simply yell at them and shoot at the same time, my capacity of civilized conversation exhausts immediately as I encounter something like that.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Teinyhr
Ourumur
#131 - 2016-01-19 21:59:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Teinyhr
Diana Kim wrote:
Said a minmatar after lying about Caldari citizens. What the heck?!.. If YOU dare to blame Caldari Officer in LYING, how about standing for your word, worthless savage? Meet me in space or in person in a combat, otherwise you will be known not just like a stupid tribal, but also as a coward and honorless liar.



I frankly couldn't give a toss about your tired ultimatums or if people think of me a coward. You want to fight me? Then come find and challenge me. I'm not going to do the legwork just so you can stroke your inflated ego.

Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Today I learn that it is apparently much saner to order an atrocity than carry one out. Also I learn that supporting a possible atrocity that never happened makes me a radical extremist, according to someone who is apparently okay with actual atrocities that were ordered and then carried out.

Either I'm exactly the same kind of crazy that they select for in your own Navy or we're both the soul of professionalism, lady.


If I had to weigh between the two, yes, I stand by what I said. People can be ordered to do anything. However only a madman would follow such an order. Supporting such an act, however imaginary, makes you at least someone to be wary of, for reason stated before. And I do not condone bombardment of Caldari Prime, again, I made the point that it was carried out as a response to something and not just because they felt like it. Was it an atrocity? Absolutely yes. So was Nouvelle Rouvenor. I feel both Gallente and Caldari still need to figure out the meaning of "two wrongs don't make a right."


P.S.:
Diana Kim wrote:
Should I have been in his shoes...

Get help.
Natheniel
Kurupt.
Sedition.
#132 - 2016-01-19 21:59:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Natheniel
There is a good question; Who's worse? The one who orders the mass murder, or the one who carries it out?

I'm fairly sure everyone here agrees 'just following orders' means nothing there.

"Life is as a storm, one must be prepared for the hardship and scorn. But with in this is a light, one for which we must fight. For hope is our weapon and our dreams are our shield. When fully armed we can not be felled from the field."
Teinyhr
Ourumur
#133 - 2016-01-19 22:11:12 UTC
I would like to add that Admiral Yanala has my utmost respect for just being a decent human being. Kind of sad when that is all you need to do to earn respect in this cluster.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#134 - 2016-01-19 22:12:32 UTC
Teinyhr wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
Said a minmatar after lying about Caldari citizens. What the heck?!.. If YOU dare to blame Caldari Officer in LYING, how about standing for your word, worthless savage? Meet me in space or in person in a combat, otherwise you will be known not just like a stupid tribal, but also as a coward and honorless liar.



I frankly couldn't give a toss about your tired ultimatums or if people think of me a coward. You want to fight me? Then come find and challenge me. I'm not going to do the legwork just so you can stroke your inflated ego.

Well, you "wanted" to fight me by insulting my honor and claiming I was "lying", which obviously wasn't the case.
If you want to insult people and back away cowardly without fighting for it, I could simply disregard all of your words as worthless just like you, and consider your insulting attempts just like a clown show.

As for "finding you", I have pretty much enough targets to shoot, who are WAY more dangerous to the State than one worthless coward mouthloud liar like you.

So, either you show up to prove you are not a spineless coward fedo, or you are so much puny that you don't even worth my time, and you may continue your pity and worthless existence in shame.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Teinyhr
Ourumur
#135 - 2016-01-19 22:23:39 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Well, you "wanted" to fight me by insulting my honor and claiming I was "lying", which obviously wasn't the case.
If you want to insult people and back away cowardly without fighting for it, I could simply disregard all of your words as worthless just like you, and consider your insulting attempts just like a clown show.

As for "finding you", I have pretty much enough targets to shoot, who are WAY more dangerous to the State than one worthless coward mouthloud liar like you.

So, either you show up to prove you are not a spineless coward fedo, or you are so much puny that you don't even worth my time, and you may continue your pity and worthless existence in shame.


I don't prescribe to your particular brand of warriors code or whatever it is you base this on, so two final words I guess from me to you:
Bite me.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#136 - 2016-01-19 22:49:22 UTC
Teinyhr wrote:

...only a madman would follow such an order. Supporting such an act, however imaginary, makes you at least someone to be wary of, for reason stated before. And I do not condone bombardment of Caldari Prime, again, I made the point that it was carried out as a response to something and not just because they felt like it. Was it an atrocity? Absolutely yes. So was Nouvelle Rouvenor. I feel both Gallente and Caldari still need to figure out the meaning of "two wrongs don't make a right."


Again, that means that the Templis Dragonaur, Pieter Tuulinen and the Federal Navy are all morally equivalent.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Teinyhr
Ourumur
#137 - 2016-01-19 22:52:26 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
[Again, that means that the Templis Dragonaur, Pieter Tuulinen and the Federal Navy are all morally equivalent.


And again what I gather from your rather aggressive imaginary scenarios it seems you think it is A-OK to punish Gallente of today for atrocities committed nearly 200 years ago. So do consider that phrase, "two wrongs don't make a right." This is going in circles, maybe it is time to ffinally end it here?
Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#138 - 2016-01-19 23:19:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Claudia Osyn
Diana Kim wrote:
Valerie Valate wrote:
A quick look at the posts suggests that "Great Hero" is in the lead, as people have doubts and concerns about Tibus Heth's actions.

But, is there really such a thing as a hero with no flaws ? Can anyone genuinely say, that were they in Tibus Heth's shoes, they would have made flawless decisions ?

Should I have been in his shoes...

I would CRUSH the Federation down! Once and forever! We would wash Caldari Navy boots in waters of Galelnte Prime! We would bomb them so they would feel what we felt. We would occupy their homeworld for the next 200 years! Our fleets would sweep through their systems. Our guns would tear their stations apart. We would capture gallente senators and give them fair judgement! They will be put under tribunal, and the justice will be served with their public executions!

All of the Corporations will finally be united as a new Caldari Empire. Our Navy is already known to be the most professional but the smallest one. But with united might we would build the LARGEST fleet in our cluster! We would blot out the stars with our Glory! Even in Maker-forsaken null systems they would hear how Caldari armies march!

We would build a DUST-based army, where soldiers won't be mercenaries, but properly trained soldiers of the line. DUSTers won't be jumping around chaotically, but will be marching together is strict formations. They would scatter and hit enemies synchronously with a perfect trained precision. In every battle they will be supported by wing of capsuleer ships, even inside planetary atmosphere. Our armies will shine in space, in air and on ground.

Hail the victory, citizens!

The sad part is, I could hear the multiple orgasms she had while giving this speech. Kim, seek help, your fetishes aren't healthy.

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.
Kador Ouryon
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#139 - 2016-01-19 23:24:07 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:


We would build a DUST-based army, where soldiers won't be mercenaries, but properly trained soldiers of the line. DUSTers won't be jumping around chaotically, but will be marching together is strict formations. They would scatter and hit enemies synchronously with a perfect trained precision. In every battle they will be supported by wing of capsuleer ships, even inside planetary atmosphere. Our armies will shine in space, in air and on ground.


Only real suggestion I would make is replace the massed formations with self sufficient fire teams or platoons mechanized infantry.

A fully crewed CV.0 Gunnlogi (Prototype Caldari Heavy Assault Vehicle) equipped with an XT-201 Missile Battery and two supporting 20GJ Particle Cannons is enough to scatter any massed formation of infantry a cloned soldier force or modern army can provide at present time.

Support that with faster moving recon and logistics elements and about the only thing that will stand in your way is a flanking Gallentean MBT, Enforcer, or Marauder.

What fills the soul? Something that guides a lost child back to it's parents arms. Or waves that dye the shores of the heart gold. A blessed breath to nurture life in a land of wheat. Or the path the Sef descend drawn in ash. In the wake of fire.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#140 - 2016-01-19 23:24:16 UTC
Teinyhr wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
[Again, that means that the Templis Dragonaur, Pieter Tuulinen and the Federal Navy are all morally equivalent.


And again what I gather from your rather aggressive imaginary scenarios it seems you think it is A-OK to punish Gallente of today for atrocities committed nearly 200 years ago. So do consider that phrase, "two wrongs don't make a right." This is going in circles, maybe it is time to ffinally end it here?


One wrong doesn't make a right, either. A wrong and a right comes out morally neutral.

Which the Federation senate is actually trying to do it seems, so I guess nobody needs to get punished - which is where this conversation USUALLY starts - it's just that we seem to have started from about halfway in, this time.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.